Christmas Holiday Road Toll

[Panda]

I have read a couple of strange things regarding the 'Christmas Holiday Road Toll'. Here's some interesting ones.

A woman hit by a car while sitting in the middle of a major southwest Sydney road yesterday morning died in hospital later that day link

a 71-year-old man died after his car veered into a tree in Melbourne's outer north. link

This was a suspected heart attack I believe, but I couldn't find confirmation of this.

A 19-year-old was also killed after being struck by a station wagon when he chased his dog onto the Bruce Highway at Kybong, near Gympie, about 11pm (AEST) yesterday, police said. link

It is believed the woman was examining minor damage to her car from an earlier accident when she was fatally hit by a truck. link

My question is should somebody sitting / standing / running onto the road constitute a road fatality. Or for that matter someone having a heart attack and then crashing?

I understand that it physically happened on the road, but when they then use these figures in advertising and to promote the use of speed cameras, it gets my goat.

Panda

[Casper]

I think you would be surprised what they count towards road fatality figures. I heard of one case where someone was struck and killed in a McDonalds car park and the police report named the intersection of the 2 roads that the McDonalds was on in the report. This was then counted in the road fatalities reporting figures as an accident at that intersection.

Anything to justify the revenue collection I guess.

[MITCHAY]

AFAIK the only thing exempt from the road toll is incidents that happen on private roads/property.

Doesn't suprise me how high it is just by observing the general driving manner of holiday makers while driving down and up to the coast.

[Aeron]

One thing is for sure, too many people die on our roads.

[Panda]

I found the heart attack one -

Daniel Bennett, 24, died of a suspected heart attack as was training for overseas competition when he collapsed and died while riding with a group near the Gold Coast Spit at 6.20am (AEST). link

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Panda

I have read a couple of strange things regarding the 'Christmas Holiday Road Toll'. Here's some interesting ones.

My question is should somebody sitting / standing / running onto the road constitute a road fatality. Or for that matter someone having a heart attack and then crashing?

I understand that it physically happened on the road, but when they then use these figures in advertising and to promote the use of speed cameras, it gets my goat.

Panda

The driver was going too fast to stop in time. Its always the drivers fault, regardless of the stupidity of those that venture onto the roadway. Just think of the Victorian TAC ads that prove this.

[Silver Ghia]

Woops sorry, you're in Qld and dont get to see the Victorian TAC ads.

[Keepleft]

Ahh secondary crashes and countermeasures against them that can help sometimes. (Ipswhich example from Panda's post).
http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1820918.htm

See something ahead unfolding, hit those hazard lights on approach fast people. Do it without fail.

Heavy rain reduces visibility, time to to use rear fogs.
http://origin.www.news.com.au/courie...9-3102,00.html

I am curious why this M1 coverage has a marked shoulder off the fast lane only. Dumb and bad design, easily fixed. 600kb. Right click, save as.
http://media01.couriermail.com.au/vi...03accident.wmv


Anyhow-

Going though this holiday periods reports, as usual for anytime of the year, we have a large portion involving impacts with trees and utility poles.

Near where I live, my para brother, who also resides nearby attended at around midnight one of these statistics, its a remaining 70km/h zone. Result of primarily skylarking and heck, maybe other??

A young bloke, 23, as driver - loses it around a bend and effectively spins sending vehicle into roadside trees. His passenger, a young lady of 17 is killed, perhaps unbelted, she's hurled through the windscreen. She'd have felt not a thing but had been on life support for two days before this was switched off by family.

The day after; - the usual roadside memorial stuff, flowers, cards, fluffy things and other tributes to a loved one lost. Another day goes by and various relatives and family members, friends, all attend the scene and weep, I presume from each family side, as happens each day after. Strangers stop too and pay respects. Skid marks and police Crash Investigation Unit markings all evident as usual observation at such events.

A few days after, this bloke is at the scene having been released from hospital with his friends and family, his arm supported by sling. Inconsolable, and at total emotional grieving devastation at having to face again this scene, to face those demons lets say. Remorse? Yes absolutely if visible reaction is any measure, he has to live with this. Who knows, maybe she was his girlfriend, maybe not.

But by sweet-lord, how must her dear family feel at the demonic doings-on that night?

One statistic among many.

[XBCoupeGuy]

The road toll is quite often adjusted when upon investigation/autopsy the death is found to be caused by other circumstances (heart attack, stroke etc) rather than the accident itself.

[Psycho Chicken]

You watch, they'll take these deaths out of future figures, but include them in old figures to try prove their point that speed cameras save lives.

[Keepleft]

Sure, a lot of this is 'speed related', above and below the limit.

But really, it is at core "behaviour"-on the roads, and it is not anywhere near as simplistic as numerals on a speed zone sign or defaults.

Drive like an idiot at any speed and you'll come unstuck. And naturally, the faster you go the greater the damage. This again has bugger all to do with 'limits'. Some are too high, some too low.

Drive without respect, throw in a multitude of factors and human failings, and we have disaster.

[Green X]

Sadly 3 of those were all preventable if they just stoped and thought about what they were about to do.

They say Speed is the factor>

Well last night we were heading out to a mate’s farm 100k North of Perth for a bit of Shooting, we were on a gravel road at around 6pm and came across a ED Falcon berried in the scrub up ahead with skid marks coming from half way around the bend up ahead, we all had a bit of a laugh as we slowed to have a look.

There were 2 guys sitting next to the car, which was well stuck, they say they cam around the bend at 80km/h and lost it, We did the right thing and pulled em out and continued on owe way.

If they had ploughed into the scrub 20 metres further down they would of hit a rather unforgiving tree and could have been killed.

On they way back to Perth at 11:30pm that same night I came around that same bend at around 70- 80km/h with one hand on the wheel no worries didn’t blink an eye.

So if Speed is the factor, then shouldn’t I have lost it around the same bend and ended up in the scrub too.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Aeron

One thing is for sure, too many people die on our roads.

Really? If you really believe this, you need to get out more.
Do you also believe the government propaganda supporting this?

One life lost is one too many, however, we live in a country of 20 million people. We also have a road network designed for a population less that half of that.

As long as we have inept drivers on our roads we will always have fatalities.

Let’s also throw into the mix:
Drunk drivers = self inflicted
Suicide by car = self inflicted
Criminal acts, police chase etc = self inflicted

Fact. More people die every year from smoking and alcohol abuse in this country than the road toll. Maybe the government should put big warning stickers on new cars saying that cars can kill, with a photo of a mangled car.

[MO]

I say let all the idiot drivers kill themselves and their passengers..=less fools I've got to deal with..I'm sick and tired of speed kills..it does'nt its inappropriate speed for conditions that kills.

[SpoolMan]

I have read a little and seen a bit to do with Sweden road policy, they are considered the best in the world.

Sweden, with the adoption of their "Vision Zero" program, which aims to have no deaths on Swedish roads.
Safety is the first priority in every decision and it always precedes commerce and vested interests.
"This is despite Sweden having horrendous icy conditions with major leaping moose problems."

There Record and more info here:
http://www.ntf.se/english/pdf/0209Ki...n%20Sweden.pdf

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Sweden, with the adoption of their "Vision Zero" program, which aims to have no deaths on Swedish roads.

Good luck! It's nice to have that aim but it would never happen.

[eur0]

So many drivers just drive so close to the car infront, I see it everyday in Brisbane and surrounding motorways.
And some people think its cool, I've got ABS and good brakes. But it's not that, it's the 120y behind you or the fully laiden trucks that have the problem stopping. They follow so close that you can't see thier front grill and part of their bonnet in the rear vision mirror at 80-100km hour. I use to drive Ipswich motorway everyday for two years and you see everything happen their.

And don't even get me started on people that can't merge at the traffic speed!!!!!!!

[MITCHAY]

What about the people who can't keep a constant speed? And don't get me started on ******* caravans/trailers.

Seriously they aren't getting anywhere anytime soon so is it going to harm them to pull over every once and a while to let built up traffic past?

I longed for every overtaking lane that came along and smashed the pedal.

Nearly got taken out by some fool in a Honda Jazz who couldn't keep their car in their lane because it's oh so wide-NOT!

[T_Terror]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

I have read a little and seen a bit to do with Sweden road policy, they are considered the best in the world.

Dosent sweden have a income-based fines system?

ie. its not unheard of for some people to be paying $50,000 for going 30kmh over.


If we start adopting their policys then we'll start seeing more ghostriders doing wheelies past cop cars and 300kmh chases.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by T_Terror

Dosent sweden have a income-based fines system?

ie. its not unheard of for some people to be paying $50,000 for going 30kmh over.


If we start adopting their policys then we'll start seeing more ghostriders doing wheelies past cop cars and 300kmh chases.

Not sure about there fine system, I know our Counsel for social services in Australia is pushing for a income-based fines system.

[MITCHAY]

As far as income based fines go. I think that is simply unfair. Why should someone be penalised higher than someone else based on what they earn just because they happen to do well for themselves?

As far as I'm concerned same offence, same fine for all.

[Silver Ghia]

Fines based on income is not a very equitable way of setting fines. I know of people living in a multi-million dollar apartment who declare only minimal income and drive prestige cars. All owned by their company of course.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Not sure about there fine system, I know our Counsel for social services in Australia is pushing for a income-based fines system.

Ha, I have a cunning plan my lord.

Move all my money off shore, declare myself bankrupt, drive everywhere at 200km/h and pay the 50c fines (I am bankrupt so I have no money) with the money I make with the "I will drop a burnout in your school for a dollar" busking cash rort.

Unfortunately ACOS are so left wing that Karl Marx would be excluded. It is ALWAYS everyone elses fault.

You want to make it even? NO FINES AT ALL. All penalties are community service, jail for bad offences and points/licence suspension. No money means everyone rich/poor is even.

Of course Victoria would go bankrupt in 12 months.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ha, I have a cunning plan my lord.

Move all my money off shore, declare myself bankrupt, drive everywhere at 200km/h and pay the 50c fines (I am bankrupt so I have no money) with the money I make with the "I will drop a burnout in your school for a dollar" busking cash rort.

Unfortunately ACOS are so left wing that Karl Marx would be excluded. It is ALWAYS everyone elses fault.

You want to make it even? NO FINES AT ALL. All penalties are community service, jail for bad offences and points/licence suspension. No money means everyone rich/poor is even.

Of course Victoria would go bankrupt in 12 months.

Bracks wouldn't like that. Still escapes me why he is still there :

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Bracks wouldn't like that. Still escapes me why he is still there :

Because the people who vote in Victoria say he is the best man for the job. Democracy lives on, not everyone will cast a vote solely on the basis of a cost of a fine.
Simple maths don't break the law and you don't get fined this would apply in your State also.
Now we have the political stuff out of the way we can get back to the thread.

[nobbystang]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Bracks wouldn't like that. Still escapes me why he is still there :

Being in power after Kennett, you'd have to look really good

[Panda]

Sorry to have to get back on topic, but I've been doing some more research on this (boring night shift)

XBCoupeGuy suggested that the road toll was adjusted if an autopsy found that it was not driving related (eg. heart attack). It appears that that is not the case.

As I understand it, all of the deaths mentioned in my first post will indeed be counted towards the official 2006 road toll. I hope that I am wrong.

Panda