MD diesel: Dual mass flywheel?

[AlanM]

Couple of questions...

Does the diesel in Australia have a DMF, being an automatic? I kind of think probably not, most automatics don't really have any flywheel at all... although it IS a DCT...

But if it does, has anyone had to replace theirs? How many km can one be expected to last?

[russellw]

The MD Mondeo Diesel when fitted with the MPS6/6DCT450 transmission (and perhaps other transmissions as well) does have a DMF. In terms of their life expectancy, it can be anything from 160-300k and sometimes more and the DMF alone is likely to set you back $700+.

[AlanM]

Thanks, although not what I was hoping to hear!

With their water pumps, thermostat housings, EGR housings, rear shock absorbers, electric handbrakes, electric steering racks and now this, it seems the MD is just loaded with expensive time bombs!

Starting to wonder if it's worth keeping it. We have a really nice MC...

[manchu]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Couple of questions...

Does the diesel in Australia have a DMF,
.
.

But if it does, has anyone had to replace theirs?

MC diesel has DMF so I assume MD with DCT does too.

Mine was making some awful sounds recently but magically cleared up the next day. ~170,000km

https://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11499506

[AlanM]

On a bit more research, (and correct me if I'm wrong, information seems to be very thin on the ground) it seems that the MD has a DMF to replace the function of the damper springs in the DCT450.
The MD transmission is designated DCT451, and doesn't have the damper springs and plastic retainers that cause all the problems with the DCT450..

So eventually there will be a DMF to replace, but hopefully you avoid many of the transmission problems.

This might even be a positive trade-off!

[AlCan]

Hi Guys,

I'm new here - this is my first post (even though I joined a while back, but haven't had to ask much so far). Looks like that's gonna change...

I have a 2011 TDCi DCT Wagon, 259,000k's. Has had the dreaded (#1) clutch judder problem for a long time, but been living with it. Love the car despite this, and just bought a neglected 2013 Titanium TDCi DCT Hatchback cheap. It needs TLC, but the clutches & gearbox seem okay - what I focussed on when testing it...

Noticed that it (the whole car) vibrated a bit, but put it down to the RH engine mount being completely toast - "popped", cap half off, spitting oil everywhere, so didn't worry too much.

Later found that the vibrations varied a lot, depending on what side of bed it got out on. The next day, it vibrated like Hell! For a while I thought it might be a DMF issue but changing the mount fixed that.

Before I got hold of a used mount, did some research on the DMF question and found a heap of confusion out there, hence my question here. I got the new mount from a "Pull-it-yourself" wreckers yard, so got to see a lot more than just the Parts Counter. Found another 2013 (Auto of some sort), the engine was out, the trans gone, so got a good look at the flywheel. Definitely not a DMF, but quite thin to what I'd expect for a diesel. Have photo if anyone can tell me the best way to post it. It has an 8-position "dog" at the centre, that the DCT clutch pack (or Torque Converter?) obviously mates with, and this eliminated a lot of my concerns. Thought others would be interested to see it.

Anyway, my question - I can't figure out the MA, MB, MC etc marques. Nor can I figure out the engine designations but I'll ask that separately if necessary.

Can anyone tell me what the Mx designations mean, and when they change? My research seems to say year and/or body style, but if someone could clarify for me, that would be great. The Titanium seems to be a BA7 (if you believe our MV Registry data, a lot of which is wrong), and this just adds to my confusion.

All further comments welcome.


Cheers,
Al

[Mondaveo]

Hi Al, welcome to the forums When I read your post I thought hey, there's some discussion I'll enjoy, but then a fortnight passed. Anyway, I hope this information is still useful to you regardless...

Originally Posted by AlCan

Anyway, my question - I can't figure out the MA, MB, MC etc marques. Nor can I figure out the engine designations but I'll ask that separately if necessary.Can anyone tell me what the Mx designations mean, and when they change? My research seems to say year and/or body style, but if someone could clarify for me, that would be great. The Titanium seems to be a BA7 (if you believe our MV Registry data, a lot of which is wrong), and this just adds to my confusion.

I haven't got a source for reference here - Wikipedia is missing details, my Haynes manual doesn't go into enough depth and I notice that the Ford Au website has removed most information on models older than 2010, which is a shame - so this is just my understanding...The third generation Mondeo built on the Volvo CD platform was launched in late 2006. In the UK and Europe they generally refer to it as the Mk4, while in Australia it was given the designation MA. MB was a minor refresh which I think came in 2008. I want to say that the MA launched with sedan and wagon bodystyles and the MB added the hatchback, but I'm not certain on that. Engines relevant to the Australian market were Duratec i4 NA petrol, Duratorq i4 turbo diesel (with Euro III and IV emissions controls) and i5 turbo petrol in the sports sedan sold here as the XR5.MC was a significant update and facelift of the range which started being assembled in late 2010 for the 2011 MY (my own car is a Nov 2010 built but 2011 MY). In overseas markets they often call it the Mk4.5, or talk about FL (facelift) and preFL models. New drivetrains were also introduced, with the i4 turbo petrol Ecoboost replacing the Duratec NA petrol at most (non-base) trim levels, the Duratorq upgraded to Euro V, and the PowerShift DCT introduced for Ecoboost and diesel models, replacing conventional torque-converter automatic transmissions except for with the Duratec. The sedan was also discontinued, which along with the new engines saw the end of the XR5. Note that although the new drivetrains were effectively introduced with the MC, some MBs toward the end of production were built with the new running gear, so you can sometimes find an MB with the PowerShift DCT.And then the new generation model (fourth generation or Mk5) came in around 2014, eventually coming to Australia as the MD Mondeo in 2015. It is a completely different platform to the MA/MB/MC although carries over the Ecoboost and Duratorq engines (but dials back on the DCT to only be fitted to the turbo-diesel, going back to torque converter for petrol Ecoboosts).

Originally Posted by AlCan

Have photo if anyone can tell me the best way to post it.

I'm certainly interested to see. You can attach pictures directly to your posts on this forum, however you are only given a very small amount of storage space (which private messages also consume) so it will fill up your quota very quickly if you try to use it to post images.There are some image-hosting services you can sign up to - Photobucket used to be the one from waaay back in the day - but the free tiers are not the most reliable. YMMV, I haven't looked into them since forever.Since these days I do 99% of my online activity out of my Android smartphone, and my photos are being backed up to Google anyway, I host images and content I want to share out of my Google account. In Google Photos you can create a Shared or public album. You can then post the link to the album (or individual photos), like so:https://goo.gl/photos/iyjqAb6LkiiVLYJZ9If I want to embed images in a forum post, I first use an image resizer app on my smartphone to reduce the images to (say) 800 or 1024 pixels, so that I'm not embedding multiple megapixels of photo which will appear very large on the forum. The tricky part then is you need to copy the image source URL (not the link to the image in the album) to put into the post wrapped in [IMG][/IMG] tags. You have to view the image in the browser (not Google Photos app) and open the context menu by right-clicking (on desktop) or press-and-long-hold (on mobile) on the image and selecting the option like "Copy image location" or "Open image in new tab". The URL you obtain should be like googleusercontent.com as opposed to photos.google.com.Example:When I view this image in Google Photos the URL is https://photos.google.com/u/2/share/...RaN0xnVnhwT3l3But to put it inline in a post, I need to get the URL to the raw image which is https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-gm?authuser=2If you instead use Apple Cloud, or have Instagram or other services like that, I'm sure you can do similar.Anyway, hope that helps! Does that help? I hope it helps, but I'm not sure if it does...

[AlanM]

I've had a look at the "flywheel" fitted to DCT450 equipped cars too. Just pulled out the transmission on a Kuga. (Avoid THAT job if you can!)

Yeah, there's really no flywheel, similarly to normal automatic transmissions except the torque converter doesn't bolt on, it just dogs in. Makes at least that part of the job easier, I'm hoping putting the box back in isn't a problem.

I guess the damper springs replaces the damping function of the flywheel.

From talking to an expert on these transmissions, the shuddering is likely a symptom of the damper springs' plastic retainers breaking up, which eventually sees plastic fragments finding their way into the valve body. I'm not sure how they get through the internal filter, but they definitely do.

If you're keen and have a spare day, you can pull the valve body out and clean out the plastic bits. It might fix the shuddering for a while. The Kuga I'm working on had a bit jammed in a small plastic orifice inside the valve body, and another piece in one of the clutch pressure control valves. It was giving a fairly violent clutch engagement moving off in first.

Anyway good luck with the cars, they are nice to drive.

Attached a photo of the blocked orifice. It's about 0.5mm.

[AlCan]

Hi Mondaveo, AlanM,

Thanks to you both for your replies. You guys are Awesome!

Yes, Mondaveo, that info is very helpful, thanks. Yours too AlanM. I'll take up that question re plastic bits later.

This is only a quick reply as it's getting late here, but both Mondeos have had to take a backseat for the time being. I will have to do some work re posting photos, but I have a bunch of them now that I imagine people would like to see - taken during my trip to the wreckers yard. I always wondered where the oil pressure switch was, likewise the thermostat - but I gather there might be two???

Unfortunately, they take the plates and VINs off cars being wrecked, so it's hard to identify what exactly they are, but the one I photographed was reportedly a 2013. I only went for the engine mount but it expanded into a photo session. Just didn't get as far as checking to see if the shift lever was still in place or if it was a Powershift, but I think it had to be. I don't know if they sold any manual trans models here in NZ, but I have yet to see one.

Anyway, time's up. You know...

Later Guys,
Al

[russellw]

You get double line para spacing in Firefox unless you add a mod to the config to stop it happening. Google the issue and you'll find a fix for whatever FF version you are running.

[AlCan]

Thanks again russellw!You clearly have a phenomenal memory. We are very blessed to have you as Chairman.
I have now seen lots of Results on this but the best-looking one didn't fix it. (So often the way!) At least, now I know what to look for.

[russellw]

Doing some reading, I see there is now a fix I can implement at this end so I've implemented that this morning and we can see what happens.

[russellw]

In terms of the model designations, here is a bit of history in Australia.The first generation Mondeo came here in 1995 and lasted until 2000 and is referred to as the HC (until 1999) and HD (from 1999). It was available as a 4 door sedan, 5 door hatch or as a wagon and in two trim levels (CLX/GLX). While there were as many as six engine variants available in other markets, Australia initially only got the 2.0L 16V Zetec with either the MTX75 5-speed manual or the CD4E 4-speed auto. This changed in 2000 when the ST24 came here as a sedan equipped with the 2.5L 24V V6 Duratec engine but only mated to a 5 speed manual transmission.The European 2nd Gen Mondeo never came to Australia officially but it was sold in New Zealand.The 3rd Gen was launched at the Melbourne Motor Show in March 2007 and would become known as the MA. It was available as a 4 door sedan or 5 door hatch and in two trim levels (LX/Zetec) and with 3 engine options: 2.3 Litre Duratec 16V; 2.0 Litre Duratorq 16V Turbo Diesel and a 2.5 Litre Duratec 20V Turbo in the XR5 Turbo model. The only transmission choice for anything other than the XR5 was the Durashift 6-speed automatic transmission (AWF21) while the XR5 had the 6-speed manual M66.The MB was launched in July 2009 and added the wagon back to the model range while dropping the sedan as well as introducing a Titanium model. The engines carried over from the MA but were limited to some variants - the 2.3L could be had in the LX, Zetec and Titanium (hatch & wagon); the Diesel in the Zetech & Titanium hatch and the 2.5L in the XR5 hatch only. Transmission choices remained the same.The MC was launched in November 2010 with the wagon following in early 2011. The engines carried over from the MB while the 2.5L Turbo and the XR5 hatch disappeared after the engine was dropped in Europe. Transmission choices were limited to the AWF21 6-speed auto or the new 6-speed dual clutch Powershift 6DCT450 which was standard in the Titanium and optional for all other models. 2013 saw a mid-life update that added a 2.0L EcoBoost to the Zetec & Titanium while the older 2.3L was only available in the LX. The MD was launched in December 2014 and based on the EU Gen 4 Mondeo and it's generally considered to be a 2015 model. Only the 5-door hatch and wagon were available with 3 variants (Ambiente, Trend and Titanium). The engines available were the 2.0L EcoBoost and 2.0L Duratorq Turbo diesel. Transmission choices were limited to the SelectShift 6-speed automatic transmission (6F35) in the petrol models or the 6-speed dual clutch Powershift MPS6/6DCT450 in diesel models. Various tweaks were made in 2017 and 2019 before the Mondeo was dropped in our market.

I have the specific model codes for the VIN plate ID's if you need to determine which variant you really have.

[AlCan]

Thank you very much for both replies. Did you download all that from memory!? My prior comments reiterated. Just looking through all the various changes over the years, it's amazing that car manufacturers are able to keep on top of all the documentation that must be required. Let alone managing all the wiring changes, assembly parts, and then all the subsequent spare parts. And this is just for the Mondeo range. I don't know how you do it.

I might take you up on your VIN decode suggestion, as I'm having trouble confirming what parts / Part Numbers I need. I have done some searching regarding engine models but Ford seems to be discontinuing a lot of their useful web resources, such as ETIS. Sadly, I never even got to see it, as I'm a new/old Ford Fan. My first car was a '67 XR Falcon Wagon (long, mostly happy story) which I bought without engine or transmission, but after that adventure, switched to mainly Toyotas. Now I'm back, so to speak.

Anyway, as mentioned elsewhere I have a couple of Mondeos, a 2011 TDCi Wagon and a 2013 TDCi Titanium Hatch but they have slightly different engines. The '11 has hydraulic Power Steering so a tankside fuel filter, while the '13 has a fuel filter where the PS Pump was, so Electric PAS, I guess (Haven't looked yet but figure what else could it have?) The '11 must have a longer accessory belt but haven't nailed those details yet either. Ford (NZ) doesn't seem to like parting with Part Numbers (these days?) Also wondering if the two engines take different Fuel Filter Cartridges.

Again, I've searched but still not clear about what I've got. It seems to me as if the '11 is a TXBA engine and the '13 might be a TXBB, but that's really a guess, as I don't know how to relate engines to engine model codes. As you can see, I've got so much to learn.

Referring again to our beloved Waka Kotahi, the NZ MV Registration Database appears to be riddled with errors. A local(?) parts supplier (PartMaster) has maybe the best Rego Data lookup, and actually displays what WK apparently has for any Rego.

For the '11:
FORD MONDEO TDCi Auto(DCT) MB, MC GXXGB 05/2010~04/2015 4 Door Wagon FWD DIESEL 2.0 litre, TXBA (D4204T7) I4 16v DOHC I/C Turbo CRD {120kW}

For the '13:
FORD MONDEO TDCi Auto(DCT) MB, MC EXXGB 05/2010~04/2015 4 Door Hatchback FWD DIESEL 2.0 litre, TXBA (D4204T7) I4 16v DOHC I/C Turbo CRD {120kW}
The engines are clearly slightly different, so I imagine the '13 data is somewhat incorrect. Or did the PS Pump / Fuel Filter change not change the engine number? Hard to believe. I've never seen the D4204T7 engine designation elsewhere so far either.

And here's what I found for another '13 Wagon:
FORD MONDEO TDCi Auto MA GXXGB 10/2007~06/2009 4 Door Wagon FWD DIESEL 2.0 litre, GBBG I4 16v DOHC I/C Turbo CRD {96kW}
I know this has a similar (or same) engine as my '13, with the PS Pump deleted and replaced with the Fuel Filter, and even the model code and years are wrong so this data is way up the creek.

Clearly, there's a lot of Tech Data here on the forum, but haven't yet found my way around it. Does it have what I'm looking for? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Let's see if the fix worked!

[russellw]

On the VIN (and there is a decoder in the tech resources section) here are the bits of interest. Here are some examples for an MC model:Position 4 (and 10) - body type:
D 4 Door
E 5 Door
G Wagon

Position 11 - Year of Manufacture
7 2007
8 2008
9 2009
A 2010
B 2011(that series continues on through so C is 2012, D 2013 etc.)

Position 12 - Month of Manufacture (you can use the decoder in the tech portal for that)You need to get the data on the compliance plate - not the VIN. The VIN contains data like where it was made and the year / month but the compliance plate covers the model and other details.
For example on an MC the following applies to the engine codes: A 2.0L Duratec-HE (MI4) (145 PS) B 1.6L Duratec-16V Ti-VCT (Sigma) (110 PS)
C 1.6L Duratec-16V Ti-VCT (Sigma) (125 PS)
E 2.3L Duratec-HE (MI4) (160 PS)
H 2.5L Duratec-ST (VI5) (220 PS)
1 1.8L Duratorq-TDCi (Lynx) Diesel (100 PS)
2 1.8L Duratorq-TDCi (Lynx) Diesel (125 PS)
3 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel (130 PS)
4 2.0L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel (143 PS)
6 2.2L Duratorq-TDCi (DW) Diesel (175 PS)

.. and transmission codes:
4 5-Speed Manual Transaxle (iB5)
5 5-Speed Manual Transaxle (MTX-75)
6 6-Speed Manual Transaxle (M66)
7 6-Speed Manual Transaxle (MMT6)
V 6-Speed Automatic Transaxle (AWF21)

.. and transaxle codes / ratios: A5 4.07 B4 4.06
C4 4.06
H6 4.015 3.41
25 3.4127 3.81/2.77 (a)
3V 3.3337 3.81/2.77 (a)
47 3.81/2.77

(a) Note: (a) The 6-speed manual transaxle (MMT6) has two output shafts. First, second, third and fourth gears have the higher final drive ratio. Fifth, sixth and reverse gears have the lower final drive ratio.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by russellw

Doing some reading, I see there is now a fix I can implement at this end so I've implemented that this morning and we can see what happens.

I use Firefox on mobile and can confirm I'm no longer experiencing the triple-spaced paragraphs. But it also removed line breaks after I did actions like opening and closing the Smilies window.

More oddly, the paragraph spaces seem to have been retroactively taken out of my post #7 above. Extra weird because I typed that using Edge on desktop.

[AlCan]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Thanks, although not what I was hoping to hear! With their water pumps, thermostat housings, EGR housings, rear shock absorbers, electric handbrakes, electric steering racks and now this, it seems the MD is just loaded with expensive time bombs!

Starting to wonder if it's worth keeping it. We have a really nice MC...

Hi Alan,

Just watched another Alan Howat video, where he investigates a seized high-milage MD engine. Looks like you can add a few more ticking bombs to your list, including the cam-cam chain tensioner and upper guide (both items, but upper guide seems the worst).

That seems to get seriously chewed away until the ends of it even fall off. Not sure if it's an oil pressure driven tensioner as it has a spring in it, which has also been known to break...Worse perhaps, is that a lot of this wear metal ends up going through the oil pump, which is an unusual vane-style pump, and doesn't seem to handle this at all well.

In this case, it appears that the oil pump itself jammed temporarily, which caused the oil pump drive chain to snap in two places - not sure how that could happen, but it did. And evidently also caused part of one of the lower engine casings to fracture...

Then, the rear (ok, flywheel end) main seized.

I guess the driver didn't take any notice of the low oil pressure warnings - does that include chimes? Alan doesn't seem to go into that directly - or whether or not they actually worked - but maybe there was a loyalty issue.

All this brings me to the question - is this no longer a PSA engine? I see in the video FoMoCo cast into the head or somewhere in that area.

Do you happen to know if the TXBA/B series engines also have chain driven oil pumps?

For sure, I'm going to stick to MC models until that's no longer viable.

[AlanM]

Originally Posted by AlCan

Hi Alan,

Just watched another Alan Howat video, where he investigates a seized high-milage MD engine. Looks like you can add a few more ticking bombs to your list, including the cam-cam chain tensioner and upper guide (both items, but upper guide seems the worst).

That seems to get seriously chewed away until the ends of it even fall off. Not sure if it's an oil pressure driven tensioner as it has a spring in it, which has also been known to break...Worse perhaps, is that a lot of this wear metal ends up going through the oil pump, which is an unusual vane-style pump, and doesn't seem to handle this at all well.

In this case, it appears that the oil pump itself jammed temporarily, which caused the oil pump drive chain to snap in two places - not sure how that could happen, but it did. And evidently also caused part of one of the lower engine casings to fracture...

Then, the rear (ok, flywheel end) main seized.

I guess the driver didn't take any notice of the low oil pressure warnings - does that include chimes? Alan doesn't seem to go into that directly - or whether or not they actually worked - but maybe there was a loyalty issue.

All this brings me to the question - is this no longer a PSA engine? I see in the video FoMoCo cast into the head or somewhere in that area.

Do you happen to know if the TXBA/B series engines also have chain driven oil pumps?

For sure, I'm going to stick to MC models until that's no longer viable.

It's definitely a PSA/Ford engine. There's Citroen and Peugeot badges cast into it near the FoMoCo logo.

The timing chain time bomb applies to the earlier Mondeos too. It's basically a matter of how well maintained the car is. If oil changes are neglected the timing chain will wear excessively and chew out the tensioner.