Fuel Taxes

[PG2]

I didn't want to hijack one of the threads about electric cars so I thought I would start another about how is the Government going to re-coup it's money to fund roads when petrol/diesel is no longer the main source of fuelling the everyday car.

I have recently read a few articles whereby fuel excise revenue is already decreasing due to more fuel efficient cars.

How do you suggest that the Government do this? This is not an argument about whether the government should tax us poor motorists or not - they do and there is no point in arguing about it.

Here are a couple of suggestions I have come up with;

1. More road tolls
2. Yearly registration system where by you pay tax based on the ks you drive each year.
3. Higher stamp duty on new car purchases

Maybe a combination of any of the above.

I don't pretend to have the answer(s) but rest assured the government will find a way to make us pay when petrol/diesel is no longer our main source of fuel. What do you think would be a fair system?

[Raptor]

So you think road funding is linked to the money raised from fuel taxes, interesting

I thought fuel taxes all went into the consolidated revenue bucket and road funding was more related to marginal seats where the incumbent party hoped to retain (con) voters with some good old fashioned pork barrelling.

But to respond to your proposals;

Yes, there will be more tolls as govt.co will outsource even more of the road building to private enterprises. Who will scam the system for stupid profits. Super funds could/will play a larger part here too as they are looking for places to invest and have more and more capital looking for a return.

Rego fees based on kms driven. Possible too sensible and would disadvantage those least capable of paying. Won't happen.

Higher stamp duty for new cars. Sure why not penalise those that are silly enough to keep buying new cars even more. They'll be financing it anyway and be thinking they're getting a bargain, what's a bit more debt. It's the Australian way mate .



.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Raptor

So you think road funding is linked to the money raised from fuel taxes, interesting

I thought fuel taxes all went into the consolidated revenue bucket and road funding was more related to marginal seats where the incumbent party hoped to retain (con) voters with some good old fashioned pork barrelling.

But to respond to your proposals;

Yes, they will be more tolls as govt.co will outsource even more of the road building to private enterprises. Who will scam the system for stupid profits. Super funds could/will play a larger part here too.

Rego fees based on kms driven. Possible too sensible and would disadvantage those least capable of paying.
.

Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh........ A politician once told me that all excise is put back into road infrastructure. I tend to believe the politicians.

They are not necessarily my proposals, just suggestions, at the end of the day I have no idea.

I'm actually looking forward to driving an EV one day. I reckon they will great to drive.

I'm just worried about the Government doing a half arsed job of making the transition from petrol/diesel to electric as seamless as possible.

Ideally, I would like to just wake up one day, look at the cars in the driveway and think, "Gee, I can't remember the last time I drove a petrol car."

[devilcv8]

This morning on the radio one suggestion was tax tyres to make up for the loss of fuel excise.

I started imagining a shady guy on the corner going “psst, I’ve got 4 245/45/19s at a no tax price, interested”

[Citroënbender]

I wish they'd commit to making administration a bit more cost-effective, instead of working out ways to fund ongoing bloat and creep?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by PG2

Ideally, I would like to just wake up one day, look at the cars in the driveway and think, "Gee, I can't remember the last time I drove a petrol car."

Hopefully I'll be long dead and buried when that happens

Toll roads here in Melbourne are privately owned - Government has no power here.

I'd say they'd move to a registration payment structure based on kilometers that increases depending on how much you use your car.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by PG2

Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh........ A politician once told me that all excise is put back into road infrastructure. I tend to believe the politicians.

They are not necessarily my proposals, just suggestions, at the end of the day I have no idea.

That was the original idea, long since proven to be a lie. It does go into consolidated revenue and there is a significant shortfall on funding for roads.

You believe politicians?

You know they are lying as soon as they open their mouths.

And I believe the km based road tax is the likely future scenario. It's already been suggested before. It will keep being put out there as a thought bubble to get people used to the idea. Then when there are enough EV's on the road they will introduce it. Just a matter of time.

[danzvtil]

Tolls won’t help as not everyone uses toll roads, and extra stamp duty won’t work as the govt need money constantly not just when you buy a new car.
There will be a base registration charge, and all cars will have gps tracking which will log usage to be paid automatically weekly,monthly,quarterly. Commercial/high km users can pay a higher registration charge for a lower km rate, or prepay kms and pay/refund the diff when you do your tax return.

[GASWAGON]

91 in Melbourne this afternoon was $1.59 everywhere.

Its just ****ing WRONG!!!!!!!!!

[marty351]

Originally Posted by QUIK6WGN

91 in Melbourne this afternoon was $1.59 everywhere.

Its just ****ing WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Still beats catching a bus.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by QUIK6WGN

91 in Melbourne this afternoon was $1.59 everywhere.

Its just ****ing WRONG!!!!!!!!!

1.30 at Costco. 1.45 for 98. Lol

[devilcv8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

That was the original idea, long since proven to be a lie. It does go into consolidated revenue and there is a significant shortfall on funding for roads.

You believe politicians?

You know they are lying as soon as they open their mouths.

And I believe the km based road tax is the likely future scenario. It's already been suggested before. It will keep being put out there as a thought bubble to get people used to the idea. Then when there are enough EV's on the road they will introduce it. Just a matter of time.

You’ll know when it’s imminent when a politician in power says they will never ever introduce a km based tax. Within 2 years it’ll be law, and called anything other than a tax.

After all, we will never have a GST......

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by devilcv8

You’ll know when it’s imminent when a politician in power says they will never ever introduce a km based tax. Within 2 years it’ll be law, and called anything other than a tax.

After all, we will never have a GST......

It'll depend if It's Core or non core promise, i Guess.

[whitelion65]

Dan is on the money. GPS tracking will be the way of the future. Big brother WILL be watching.
Fuel excise was always just a proxy for road usage. That’s why the primary producer exemption existed. One of the most opaque systems ever devised by Govt.
With GPS tracking, if you aren’t driving on the road, you won’t be taxed (and I’m not talking about driving up the foot path, Cav)

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Dan is on the money. GPS tracking will be the way of the future. Big brother WILL be watching.
Fuel excise was always just a proxy for road usage. That’s why the primary producer exemption existed. One of the most opaque systems ever devised by Govt.
With GPS tracking, if you aren’t driving on the road, you won’t be taxed (and I’m not talking about driving up the foot path, Cav)

GPS tracking is not technically practical, too much logistical problems.

Tolls is the best as every car should have an etag or car rego.

Anyways all taxes go into a pool and they just take from that.

[last fairlane]

From the time of the truck invention we had a road tax system which got so bad and costly not only for the truck owners but also the govt as they had to have people on corners taking down rego numbers so you wouldnt/couldnt cheat
thats what the razorback truck blockade was all about the govt caved in or should I say re arranged the taxes as they put it on the price of fuel which put diesel up to 35 cents a litre thats right 35 not $1.35 another thing back in 73 Gough Whitlam tried to bring in scheme where you paid 2 cents a gallon about one half of one cent a litre and you wouldnt have to pay rego well that was shot down

[jpd80]

The problem with any broad based tax is that it’s inflationary
and ultimately self defeating, make excise a dollar per litre
and I guarantee you two things
1. The people who can least afford cost increases across the board
will be hit the hardest as transport just passes on taxes as higher
food and material costs.
2. Governments have too much self interest to spend our taxes wisely
so why give them more, make them do more with what they’ve got now

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The problem with any broad based tax is that it’s inflationary
and ultimately self defeating, make excise a dollar per litre
and I guarantee you two things
1. The people who can least afford cost increases across the board
will be hit the hardest as transport just passes on taxes as higher
food and material costs.
2. Governments have too much self interest to spend our taxes wisely
so why give them more, make them do more with what they’ve got now

Politicians like to spend more and tax less as it gets votes.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Tolls is the best as every car should have an etag or car rego.

Spoken like a true politician. Nothing exists outside capital cities

[burnz]

I Heard a Rumour that the gov will increase tax on cigarettes and alcohol..

confirm anyone...

[Paul22]

I would think that arriving at a comparable charge for EVs would be by way of a (perhaps complex) calculation of the fuel excise per litre against kilometres travelled for that litre of fuel. This would be averaged for fairness. Then, using that calculation, apply the charge to KwH used/purchased. This could be done through the charger which would read your odometer whilst assessing the charge state/condition of your battery when you connect. For those of whom that would only use home chargers they could be required to use a registered charging station either monthly, quarterly, half yearly or annually - whatever the user prefers - to gather an odometer reading to assess the fee. I reckon you'll find that every service station is existence today will offer charging points. This would be charged to the card offered for payment. One thing is for certain the gov't will have an answer and if we don't get involved in the assessment process we will be paying more than the equivalent today.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Paul22

I would think that arriving at a comparable charge for EVs would be by way of a (perhaps complex) calculation of the fuel excise per litre against kilometres travelled for that litre of fuel. This would be averaged for fairness. Then, using that calculation, apply the charge to KwH used/purchased. This could be done through the charger which would read your odometer whilst assessing the charge state/condition of your battery when you connect. For those of whom that would only use home chargers they could be required to use a registered charging station either monthly, quarterly, half yearly or annually - whatever the user prefers - to gather an odometer reading to assess the fee. I reckon you'll find that every service station is existence today will offer charging points. This would be charged to the card offered for payment. One thing is for certain the gov't will have an answer and if we don't get involved in the assessment process we will be paying more than the equivalent today.

personally I think they will hit you up at rego time, klm's travelled per year.. (user pays)

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by burnz

personally I think they will hit you up at rego time, klm's travelled per year.. (user pays)

But how would they know how many K's you've done?

[redxm]

Easy
Increase GST to 30%. Get rid of every other tax, excise, stamp duty, income tax etc

[Uncle_Ken]

They might start making bike riders (not motor cycles) to pay rego, green slips, rego plates and bike licence fees. Just a thought
UK

[dunga]

Originally Posted by burnz

personally I think they will hit you up at rego time, klm's travelled per year.. (user pays)

That's how they charge in NZ I believe the trick will be to not let too much out of the bag before a lot of people actually buy electric cars.Thinking they can avoid fuel excise and save a fair bit of money (that's the attraction atm) then introduce the tax changes. Chances are we will all pay more even with petrol / diesel cars as they wont be able to help themselves at a chance to rip us off under the pretence of a carbon tax . Read between the lines labour are already spruiking how we will be buying 50% electric cars in 2028 and fossil fuel cars will be mandated to only produce only 105 grams(or so) per km that will mean if you own a vehicle that produces over that you will pay dearly.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Spoken like a true politician. Nothing exists outside capital cities

That’s right. Wouldn’t the system be fairer if every journey contributed to road income and not just the drive into the CBD (that not everyone makes)
It’s fairer if more people pay a smaller amount.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by PG2

how is the Government going to re-coup it's money to fund roads when petrol/diesel is no longer the main source of fuelling the everyday car.

Raise the price of cigarettes and blame them. When that doesn't work, blame the non-smokers.

[MITCHAY]

I'm not sure how we do things differently but I'd prefer higher stamp duty out of those.

I'm from Canberra from so obviously tolls are not an issue for here (yet!) but I do 60km round trip a day even in such a massively underpopulated small city.

A tax on a kays seems logical but in practice it would be harder on lower income people because usually they don't live close to the action. I could cop it but I know it would be quite a burden for many around here.

I was quite surprised to learn that tobacco excise is expected to bring in about 3x fuel excise. It is far ahead of anything else.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

But how would they know how many K's you've done?

Here in N.S.W. every time you get a RWC it has the odometer reading on It. Shouldn't be too hard for the Gubment to rape us..