Electrical Power Generation and Consumption

[cheap]

Greetings,

Electrical power generation and costs are often talked about in Australia. Closing traditional coal powered generations and replacing these with renewables is the trend.

Attached is a screen shot of power consumption in Australia today @ 10:55. Most working days a similar outcome happens.

Basically reading through the data and then remembering the claims from politicians and environmentalist no one wants to state the obvious "holistically Australia's capacity to generate electricity and consumption is at a critical point - aka Australia is screwed!"

Victoria can not generate enough power for itself, so it imports power from SA and NSW at a very high costs. Perhaps Victoria's euthanasia legislation now makes more sense. RIP Hazelwood.

NSW can not generate enough power for itself, so it imports power from QLD and then on-sells power to Victoria as a higher price than what it buys from QLD (good business model for NSW)

Tasmania generates surplus power and on-sells this to Victoria

SA (the renewable capital - yeah right), sells its surplus to Victoria.

Most of the country is basically supported by QLD and here in QLD two political parties are racing each other to shutdown coal power stations and replace with renewables (sounds good yeah?)

So if you wonder why our power costs keep going up, it is a simple supply and demand situation. There isn't enough supply and our politicians aided and abetted by the generators and environmentalist are hell bent on making it worse!!

Bring on a big heatwave on the eastern states, it will make things very interesting. No one mention Blackouts no need to cause panic...

Screen Shot 2017-11-23 at 6.17.40 pm.jpg

[383hq]

Victorian government made the decision to shut Hazelwood, and subsidise Alcoa in Portland.
If it had allowed Portland to shut, net effect would have been negligible, but 300 people would be looking for work.
Any of these issues by themselves might be ok, but cumulatively, they add up, for example add the elec cost increases to the near $2million a day that is paid for a de-sal plant to maintain "stand by" status (it may have been used once?)
It starts to add up...

once upon a time the infrastructure was owned by us, but govco sold it back to us and others on the share market/international market.

I wonder if the price increases would be similar if the infrastructure had been retained as public utilities?

[AGRO]

In my opinion, all infrastructure including utilities SHOULD be owned by the people (Australia), not privatised companies.
In my opinion, all decisions made by a government that fail to better Australia, those who implement those changes, SHOULD be held accountable (stood down or goal time).
We now have NO control over energy prices, that's because we no longer own the infrastructure! It will only get worse, as now it's a privatised company trying to make more profits.
It will be very interesting come this summer, to see how the 'system' handles the maximum demand load (it always is).
What worries me, is now our electrical supplier has the power to switch off our smart meters remotely, and claim it's a failure of system demand, but really it will be only to relieve the grid of power shortages, and direct power to the most critical areas should such deemed necessary!
I do hope I'm wrong, it is interesting times ahead, that's for sure!

AGRO.

[Burnout]

Power cuts and power failures will become the norm.
This summer will be cooler than last year though, due to a La Nina weather pattern.

[mcflux]

Anyone with an iphone should get the PocketNEM app. This shows Australia's current generation (and price) state-by-state except for WA & NT. It updates every 5 minutes. You can drill down to particular power stations and see what units are offline, or running at reduced power.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by AGRO

In my opinion, all infrastructure including utilities SHOULD be owned by the people (Australia), not privatised companies.
In my opinion, all decisions made by a government that fail to better Australia, those who implement those changes, SHOULD be held accountable (stood down or goal time).
We now have NO control over energy prices, that's because we no longer own the infrastructure! It will only get worse, as now it's a privatised company trying to make more profits.
It will be very interesting come this summer, to see how the 'system' handles the maximum demand load (it always is).
What worries me, is now our electrical supplier has the power to switch off our smart meters remotely, and claim it's a failure of system demand, but really it will be only to relieve the grid of power shortages, and direct power to the most critical areas should such deemed necessary!
I do hope I'm wrong, it is interesting times ahead, that's for sure!

AGRO.

Talking about privatisation, the whole energy industry Aus wide excluding Victoria will be undergoing a massive change on 1st December this year.

It's called Power of choice. Basically private companies will be the companies who install and maintain meters, this also includes when a existing meter needs to be changed and meter readings.

Basically the thinking is that this will reduce cost and give consumers more choice and cheaper rates etc.

But from what I have seen this will just increase costs due to more companies being involved and wanting to make a profit.

[ebxr8240]

Better purchase a good generator? Ô

[Itsme]

Political ideology is the cause of all problems regarding all forms of electrical generation in this country and it will not get any better in the future with all the bickering between states, feds & political parties.

Sad reality we the people are getting screwed.

[M&Ms]

That's what happens when you listen to people who live in la la land.... They have no actual concept of the numbers we talk about in power generation. a 660MW x 4 site (or even a Hazelwood 200MW x 8) would require a whole bunch of 2MW windmills to compensate. Then add to that the fact the wind will allow for generation ~200 days of the year, it's never going to be a replacement. Germany proved that you can't have more than about 30% of your base load generated by wind, otherwise, you're in the dark. Other alternatives? Hydro?? We've pretty much exhausted most sites where a hydro plant is feasible. Gas? IMO too valuable of a resource to use up for power (look at the UK, used up all their gas in the 80s and 90s, now have to import it). Solar? Probably the only source that IMO hasn't had enough investment, should have happened decades ago; but again, only a complimentary source of power. Coal, for the time being, is here to stay, whether greenies like it or not. Only other alternative is Nuclear Power, but that sends shivers down the spines of any greenie or lefty.

Interesting time ahead, we will be facing regular blackouts soon. If it's not this summer, it's the one after that or the one after that, but it will happen. Australia is unique. We have a relatively small population spread across a huge area, the models that work in Europe / US / Asia will not work in Australia. We need some unrestrained thinkers to come up with our local solution, not politicians and whingers who want to act smart, but really lack any common sense. But then again, governments survive on a public that's stupid and gullible.....

[Mercury Bullet]

Funny, I live in wa and our government run power is fine, no issues ever at my end.

Last election the federal govt tried to demand that we either sell off our power or ports before they would consider the GST rort that is being foisted onto us.

Guess what happened at the last election? Liberals kicked out on their a$$ and we still have govt run power...thank God.

No stinking privatisation here thanks, big business have been screwing this country since Keating!

We don't want any stinking private toll roads either.

[zipping]

If you want to see our power generation this is good as mcflux points out

http://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/

[383hq]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Funny, I live in wa and our government run power is fine, no issues ever at my end.

Last election the federal govt tried to demand that we either sell off our power or ports before they would consider the GST rort that is being foisted onto us.

Guess what happened at the last election? Liberals kicked out on their a$$ and we still have govt run power...thank God.

No stinking privatisation here thanks, big business have been screwing this country since Keating!

We don't want any stinking private toll roads either.

When its owned and run by tax payers, there might be a chance that its managed beyond cost and profit as prime KPI's (this seems to occur with privatisation)

Perhaps they look at life cycle maintenance, social dividend, future growth, or other KPI's with a different point of view.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by M&Ms

That's what happens when you listen to people who live in la la land.... They have no actual concept of the numbers we talk about in power generation. a 660MW x 4 site (or even a Hazelwood 200MW x 8) would require a whole bunch of 2MW windmills to compensate. Then add to that the fact the wind will allow for generation ~200 days of the year, it's never going to be a replacement. Germany proved that you can't have more than about 30% of your base load generated by wind, otherwise, you're in the dark. Other alternatives? Hydro?? We've pretty much exhausted most sites where a hydro plant is feasible. Gas? IMO too valuable of a resource to use up for power (look at the UK, used up all their gas in the 80s and 90s, now have to import it). Solar? Probably the only source that IMO hasn't had enough investment, should have happened decades ago; but again, only a complimentary source of power. Coal, for the time being, is here to stay, whether greenies like it or not. Only other alternative is Nuclear Power, but that sends shivers down the spines of any greenie or lefty.

Interesting time ahead, we will be facing regular blackouts soon. If it's not this summer, it's the one after that or the one after that, but it will happen. Australia is unique. We have a relatively small population spread across a huge area, the models that work in Europe / US / Asia will not work in Australia. We need some unrestrained thinkers to come up with our local solution, not politicians and whingers who want to act smart, but really lack any common sense. But then again, governments survive on a public that's stupid and gullible.....

It CAN be done...
https://www.sciencealert.com/costa-r...17-power-green

[M&Ms]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

It CAN be done...
https://www.sciencealert.com/costa-r...17-power-green

Leading the charge is hydropower, which provides 78.26 percent of Costa Rican electricity, followed by wind (10.29 percent), geothermal energy (10.23 percent), biomass and solar (0.84 percent), and hydrocarbons (0.38 percent).

Try get Australia to run 78% Hydro. Works for Costa Rica. Works for New Zealand. Doesn't work here. 10% is the maximum realistic number for hydro. Again, Australia is a unique country, we can't do what others do.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by 383hq

When its owned and run by tax payers, there might be a chance that its managed beyond cost and profit as prime KPI's (this seems to occur with privatisation)

Perhaps they look at life cycle maintenance, social dividend, future growth, or other KPI's with a different point of view.

Hey what a novel idea!

It worked well for 100 years....

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Funny, I live in wa and our government run power is fine, no issues ever at my end.

Last election the federal govt tried to demand that we either sell off our power or ports before they would consider the GST rort that is being foisted onto us.

Guess what happened at the last election? Liberals kicked out on their a$$ and we still have govt run power...thank God.

No stinking privatisation here thanks, big business have been screwing this country since Keating!

We don't want any stinking private toll roads either.

I’m of the opposite view. Governments should build things and then sell them off, including power. The issue is governance after they’re sold. Power companies have been allowed to get away with murder and all we get it talk from the politicians and nothing else. Legislation needs to be enacted that protects us first, not anyone else. Too many politicians ha e their fingers in too many pies and this is the result.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I’m of the opposite view. Governments should build things and then sell them off, including power. The issue is governance after they’re sold. Power companies have been allowed to get away with murder and all we get it talk from the politicians and nothing else. Legislation needs to be enacted that protects us first, not anyone else. Too many politicians ha e their fingers in too many pies and this is the result.

That is the problem of privatisation as profits is the number one priority for the shareholders which will force up prices, at least with government run utilities it was subsidised by tax payers money for affordable pricing.

Sadly we are being screwed over.

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by mcflux

Anyone with an iphone should get the PocketNEM app. This shows Australia's current generation (and price) state-by-state except for WA & NT. It updates every 5 minutes. You can drill down to particular power stations and see what units are offline, or running at reduced power.

I'll get straight onto that, right after I've finished sorting out my sock drawer!

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I’m of the opposite view. Governments should build things and then sell them off, including power. The issue is governance after they’re sold. Power companies have been allowed to get away with murder and all we get it talk from the politicians and nothing else. Legislation needs to be enacted that protects us first, not anyone else. Too many politicians ha e their fingers in too many pies and this is the result.

Why?
We build it and keep the profits.

Sell it.
Everyone overseas gets our money.

Everything this country has sold has turned into a basket case.
The states with the biggest power problems have either gutted the utility for sale or have sold it. Taxpayers in those states who paid for the infrastructure originally are now sending every cent to China on a regular billing cycle.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Why?
We build it and keep the profits.

Sell it.
Everyone overseas gets our money.

Everything this country has sold has turned into a basket case.
The states with the biggest power problems have either gutted the utility for sale or have sold it. Taxpayers in those states who paid for the infrastructure originally are now sending every cent to China on a regular billing cycle.

Because governments cannot run things. They can’t even run themselves. Beloeve me I see the case for keeping things government run as well, but I don’t have any trust in any level of government to run anything effectively.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Because governments cannot run things. They can’t even run themselves. Beloeve me I see the case for keeping things government run as well, but I don’t have any trust in any level of government to run anything effectively.

Define effectively?

Effectively the tax payer owned assett was sold out to private corporations
Effectively the corporations now report to private owners not users
Effectively their actions are governed by profits not service
Effectively we have seen massive increases in cost of electricity/power under the hands of private ownership of poles, wires generators and retailers!

Government runs essential services because the private sector may not do it, as there is effectively no profit, too many regulations or other reasons, so called 'affordable electricity/power' (and power security) is becoming an essential service, it appears the communities appetite for it has outstripped supply.

JP

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Define effectively?

Effectively the tax payer owned assett was sold out to private corporations
Effectively the corporations now report to private owners not users
Effectively their actions are governed by profits not service
Effectively we have seen massive increases in cost of electricity/power under the hands of private ownership of poles, wires generators and retailers!

Government runs essential services because the private sector may not do it, as there is effectively no profit, too many regulations or other reasons, so called 'affordable electricity/power' (and power security) is becoming an essential service, it appears the communities appetite for it has outstripped supply.

JP

Yep, and if it was government run it would be run to cut costs where possible ( and where not possible), thereby putting us in the exact same position as we are now, only the problem wouldn’t be the availability of electricity, we just wouldn’t have sufficient infrastructure to get it to us.

[Mercury Bullet]

Funny, we have government owned but run by western power here in wa and we aren't the ones facing rolling blackouts.

Western power is currently in the process of replacing every pole in the state yet they can still pay a government dividend of a couple of hundred million a year every year and that money goes straight back to the community, not to china.

The states that are facing the blackouts seem to me to be the states who have privatised.
These overseas companies don't want to pay to upgrade older places like Hazelwood so they just close them. They can't make enough profit for the shareholders.

[Ben73]

I want to know why our coal power is the most expensive in the world.

We literately export coal from the same mines we use in local power plants, but some how the people who buy it off us in other continents have much cheaper power than us.

[mcflux]

http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com....rwell/?cs=1462

Never fear! 105 diesel generators will save the day!

I'd like to know why the govt has selected the Morwell substation rather than say, I dunno, the many existing Melbourne substations? Surely it couldn't have anything to do with city-based voters?

I note that Aggreko, the diesel generator suppliers, are based in MELBOURNE.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I want to know why our coal power is the most expensive in the world.

State governments are mandating that renewable energy MUST be given priority over coal in the market. So energy retailers buy renewables before coal. This results in coal generators shutting down boilers due to lack of demand. When demand peaks/changes because the wind stops blowing or its a hot day prices escalate quickly because boilers take 24hrs to come on stream to meet the demand.

The closure of some coal in SA and Vic means these diesal gens are essential to cover for demand so that the whole system does not collapse.

Our coal power is expensive purely because government chooses to make it so.
Turnbull is a Goldman Sachs (ETS) man, and Shorten is owned by the Unions, whose Industry Super Funds would invest in the renewables sector, particularly Wind Farms from which they can reap $400K subsidies per turbine, per year – until the cows come home. It’s a licence to print money without ever having to deliver a usable product.

Renewables do not work at any price and CO2 is a marginal greenhouse gas with enormous benefits to plants. This is collective insanity. Even discussing it rationally is nuts.

Yet we live in a society where elected politicians can make statements such as that mining coal will destroy the Great Barrier Reef and journalists nod their heads and the public accepts it.

We are the stupidest generation ever. Probably too stupid to survive.

[danzvtil]

Over here in dark SA, I heard a radio ad of a supermarket/gourmet store advertising the fact that they have back up power generation, so in the event of an outage, you can go there to buy dinner.
My boss has just invested $150k in solar panels/batteries on our work place to enable islanding so we can keep running with no external power. Imagine what he could do with an extra $150k capital investment into the actual business, and not to cover for failures of essential services.
I was talking to a sparky in the hills, he's installing caravan plugs and isolation switches so homeowners can run their places on petrol generators when the power goes out.
All of these are the result of failure of the authorities to balance our power system.