Tesla's Powerwall home battery is coming to Australia in 2015

[ford man xf]

I asked the question in the solar powered thread about powering your whole house from solar, the answer was yes but you would need a few batteries and they're not cheap, now this is coming to Australia I would be happy to get my hands on one of these and not rely on power from the grid at all
Does anyone know what makes these batteries so special?

The Powerwall, a rechargeable lithium ion home battery from the makers of the Tesla Model S car, will be on sale in Australia by the end of the year.

Powerwall will be available in Australia in late 2015 through a variety of Tesla Energy partners who are yet to be announced, Business Insider reported.

The Powerwall, launched in May by Tesla founder Elon Musk, is basically a storage system for energy that aims to allow users to be less dependent on the electrical grid. "Our goal is to fundamentally change the way the world uses energy," Musk said at the time. "It sounds crazy, but we want to change the entire energy infrastructure of the world to zero carbon."

Excess energy generated by a home's solar panels during the day's peak sunlight hours when people are not at home is usually sold to the power grid and then purchased back at night, Tesla explains. The Powerwall changes this model by storing the surplus.

The Powerwall comes in two models: 10 kilowatt-hour for backup applications and 7 kilowatt-hour for daily use applications. You can also install multiple batteries together.

Tesla says it's more cost effective for Australians to consume their own solar power than to sell it back to the utility.

The Australian release date and pricing haven't yet been released, but in the U.S., prices range from $3,500 (A$4,872.96) for the 10 kilowatt-hour model to $3,000 (A$4,176.82) for the 7 kilowatt-hour.

http://mashable.com/2015/09/17/tesla...k#jSIF3gX_Makq

[Mowdit]

Not sure sorry

There are plenty of others here who have technical knowledge and experience, but this is mine.

From my reading it isn't all about the batteries, even though they are supposed to be a new technology..

It is the Tesla system, being an intergrated management system, being better at switching between storage and distribution, yet retaining charge in the batteries to extend their life.

When it was first announced to be released in Aus as a trial area we looked at it for our 5kw system, we are in Sydney and are all electric, with solar hot water, so our bills are more in winter, but the pool filter runs way more in summer (and is set to run durring the mid day to afternoon) , the $5,000 min cost of the PowerBank is hard to recover............

Example, our last summer bill was way inexcess of credit, the autumn bill was $80, winter bill was $250...
So if you round up costs for inflation to $500 per annum, it would take 10 years to recover costs plus interest

All after the cost of you solar set up (we have a micro inverter system set up over several roof directions to give us usable production most sunlight hours).
You would really need to be looking at a rural environment where the cost of conection and tranformer were exorbitant to look at this yet ?

[jpblue1000]

we have decided to 'invest' in this or similar despite the sums not stacking up. For us independence from he grid is worth the money. We are in the city and have 2kw solar which powers us all year in excess of any bills.
Its not a financial decision for us.

JP

[wodahs]

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/powerwall

I have been interested and watching this for a while just waiting on the price to as how fast I jump on it when it comes or wait to see if prices drop over time

[Mowdit]

We could wish to be in your situation jpblue1000

We feed into the grid for 8c per KWH
Yet we pay 34c per KWH, plus connection & GST
We actually produce far more than we use, which like many solar PV generators Australia wide goes to financially benefit the electricity company's far more than the individual actually producing it .....

Agree that the Tesla system is appealing, unfortunately between the outlay and our current financial situation it is not viable.

Should either change in the future then YES, we will be looking at a stand alone system

The unfortunate truth is that the average home ownership is 7 years and most PV systems are good for 25 years (the batteries to date are lucky to last 7-9 years), so too often the purchaser pays for a system, but the following owners are the ones whom will probably benifit from it the most !

The people who benifit most from the uptake and development of solar are those in regional area where the cost of connection outweighs the cost of a modern stand alone system.

[davenl5l]

They are building a mega factory in the states and rumor has it they will be 50% cheaper when it comes on line

[nstg8a]

Il be very very keen on this.

For me it's not financial either, although even if it takes ten years to pay it back its still a free way to get off the grid eventually.

Anything we can do to reduce our reliance on profit based utilities is a good thing.

[Mowdit]

It has been a while since I first looked at these.

Powerwall's lithium ion battery inherits Tesla's proven automotive battery technology to power your home safely and economically. Completely automated, it installs easily and requires no maintenance.

Powerwall is a home battery that charges using electricity generated from solar panels, or when utility rates are low, and powers your home in the evening. Automated, compact and simple to install, Powerwall enables you to maximize self-consumption of solar power generation.

Powerwall comes in 10 kWh weekly cycle and 7 kWh daily cycle models. Both are guaranteed for ten years and are sufficient to power most homes during peak evening hours. Multiple batteries may be installed together for homes with greater energy need, up to 90 kWh total for the 10 kWh battery and 63 kWh total for the 7 kWh battery.

Wall mounted and slimline, measuring 860mm wide, 1300mm high and only protruding 180mm off the wall !!! Nice
Also can have multiple batteries hooked together, depending on you power load/demand.

The system they show ties in between your solar panels and the inverter, which isn't much good for me as I have micro inverters under each solar panel so it is AC current leaving the panel, not DC as their system is set up for.........

Guess we will wait and learn

Have signed up to learn more

[mik]

Obviously these batteries are in a nice package and easier to locate and by the sound of it more of a plug and play set up , cost wise how would they stack up against a normal bank of deep cycle batteries ?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by mik

Obviously these batteries are in a nice package and easier to locate and by the sound of it more of a plug and play set up , cost wise how would they stack up against a normal bank of deep cycle batteries ?

I wonder?
The first issue is that you need something to manage the batteries. Although PV cells are essentially DC, the typical inverter manipulates the impedance to optimise power output (or to minimise power transmission loss) so what you need is some type of DC~DC charger to charge the batteries from the PV cells.
There are certainly plenty of remote PV setups that work this way. Then if you want an AC supply (as opposed to just running off the batteries) you'd use a normal inverter. Running your own standalone setup is conceptually a lot simpler than grid integration.
So I don't know if in practice it is as simple as they make it sound? Perhaps conceptually it is, but in practice where you have an existing setup, I doubt it plugs in as simply as they imply.

I don't understand WHY they are using Lions. My understanding was that you use Lions (even they they are costlier and have shorter lifespan) because they weigh less than other deep-cycle types, but that's hardly a factor in a home setup.
Maybe Tesla has a more efficient method of using Lithium-ion technology?

The biggest problem with this tech, is that at least in WA, its illegal to connect batteries to the grid. So its an all or nothing proposition.

NB: I don't really follow those that want to do something unviable "because it's not a financial decision, its about not giving money to utility companies"?

[Franco Cozzo]

Lithium Ion supposedly charges faster and you can hit it harder with bigger draws as well apparently.

Problem is they need a battery management system for lithium ion batteries, they have a tendancy to catch on fire otherwise.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

NB: I don't really follow those that want to do something unviable "because it's not a financial decision, its about not giving money to utility companies"?

The world isn't all about saving the all mighty dollar, sometimes its nice to stick the finger and fly the jolly roger flag when you have the opportunity.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

NB: I don't really follow those that want to do something unviable "because it's not a financial decision, its about not giving money to utility companies"?

Not everything is about profit, nor the cheapest solution to a problem. Some believe in other important things.
The tesla wall is totally viable (certainly not unviable), just potentially slightly more expensive when compared to remaining on the 'Grid'
I have decided to completely privatise my own power generation and benefit myself not some corporation. that is more important to me than saving 10 cents per Kwh.

JP

[BlueBear]

LiFePo4 Batteries are the secret to being able to handle both the charging and usage draw.
I'm not an expert, but I am in the process of doing a good sized setup for my ex coach motorhome.
The batteries can be charged at almost unlimited rates and discharged very quickly as well.
This allows for the big draw items like A/C stoves etc.
Also the cycle down to 80% depth of discharge with no ill effects whereas normal deep cycle will only go to 50% without damage.
Therefore you get an extra 30% capacity for the same amp/hour capacity.
We will be putting in 400A/h of cells, which will give us use of A/C etc as well.
Of course you need plenty of solar to charge the batteries as well, making sure you have enough to allow for rainy days etc.

Our setup is a DIY at about 1/4 of the retail prices.
I have a contact that is doing the battery management devices for me at a very good rate as well.
It's interesting that an Aussie bloke is at the world forefront of this technology for RV applications. It's completely different to electric car technology as far as the management of the cells is concerned.

Makes you think what the world would be like if we could all be self sufficient power wise...

Cheers,

[Trump]

Originally Posted by BlueBear

Makes you think what the world would be like if we could all be self sufficient power wise...

Cheers,

It would be free...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BlueBear

LiFePo4 Batteries are the secret to being able to handle both the charging and usage draw.
I'm not an expert, but I am in the process of doing a good sized setup for my ex coach motorhome.
The batteries can be charged at almost unlimited rates and discharged very quickly as well.
This allows for the big draw items like A/C stoves etc.
Also the cycle down to 80% depth of discharge with no ill effects whereas normal deep cycle will only go to 50% without damage.
Therefore you get an extra 30% capacity for the same amp/hour capacity.
We will be putting in 400A/h of cells, which will give us use of A/C etc as well.
Of course you need plenty of solar to charge the batteries as well, making sure you have enough to allow for rainy days etc.

Our setup is a DIY at about 1/4 of the retail prices.
I have a contact that is doing the battery management devices for me at a very good rate as well.
It's interesting that an Aussie bloke is at the world forefront of this technology for RV applications. It's completely different to electric car technology as far as the management of the cells is concerned.

Makes you think what the world would be like if we could all be self sufficient power wise...

Cheers,

Keep us up to date with that one, got a customer interested in a lithium ion battery to power 5500W of stereo on his boat.

[BlueBear]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Keep us up to date with that one, got a customer interested in a lithium ion battery to power 5500W of stereo on his boat.

Well that all depends on how long he wants to run it for, how loud he's going to use it and whatever else he would run at the same time.
(hope i'm not around when he's broadcasting???)

My 400a/h @ 24 volts gives 9600 watts total 7680 watts useable (80%) discharge. so he would get a bit more than an hour running the system flat chat.

If he wants 10 hours he will need 10 times that, and very deep pockets.
100a/h @ 12v requires 4 cells and will cost approx $800 retail, i will be using 8 times that amount (400a/h @ 24v)

And then of course you need to be able to recharge them...

Cheers,

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The world isn't all about saving the all mighty dollar, sometimes its nice to stick the finger and fly the jolly roger flag when you have the opportunity.

You're missing my point.
Saying you don't want to give your money to a utility company, is, by definition, all about money.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Not everything is about profit, nor the cheapest solution to a problem. Some believe in other important things.
The tesla wall is totally viable (certainly not unviable), just potentially slightly more expensive when compared to remaining on the 'Grid'
I have decided to completely privatise my own power generation and benefit myself not some corporation.

So WHO are you going to buy your Solar cells and batteries from???

[BlueBear]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Lithium Ion supposedly charges faster and you can hit it harder with bigger draws as well apparently.

Problem is they need a battery management system for lithium ion batteries, they have a tendency to catch on fire otherwise.

Not true - the catching on fire bit - not lithium iron anyway.
The batteries that were an issue for the planes is a different formula.

LiFePo4 is amongs the most stable of batteries you can get.
Even short circuited with a crowbar they will rupture but wont burn.

You are correct re the battery management though they need to have protection at cell level.

Cheers,

[BlueBear]

Just a quick side point also:-
They are not Lithium Ion, there is no ionisation involved
The chemistry is Lithium Iron Phosphate, common abbreviation is LFP.
True formula is LiFePo4

Cheers,

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

You're missing my point.
Saying you don't want to give your money to a utility company, is, by definition, all about money.

For me, it's about reducing our reliance on things we have no control over.

If for example contact energy was to announce tomorrow they are jacking up prices by 300%, or introducing rolling brownouts at peak times then we would be insulated by having our own power supply,,and storage.

Obviously we still have to pay the big corporates for the hardware, no way around that, but it's not locking us into a quarterly bill for the rest of our lives either.

[mik]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

For me, it's about reducing our reliance on things we have no control over.

If for example contact energy was to announce tomorrow they are jacking up prices by 300%, or introducing rolling brownouts at peak times then we would be insulated by having our own power supply,,and storage.

Obviously we still have to pay the big corporates for the hardware, no way around that, but it's not locking us into a quarterly bill for the rest of our lives either.

That is imo the best reason to go off grid, every year the amount these utility companys give you the shaft changes, a few years ago our bills where 800 odd, then after a political change and different policys it went down to 4 or 500 , last bill was 1000 bucks, holy hell ...... pack of thieving mongrel (*^&(^$%@# , fairdinkum !
and not too mention unreliability in power supply .

[minheim]

From what I understand the Powerwall batteries are not really suitable for going off grid for most people. They really are a load shift option that still require grid connection maintenance. The 10KW battery is designed as backup storage and is not suitable for daily discharge but rather weekly discharge. The 7KW is designed for daily discharge but cannot sustain high output beyond 2KW. Apparently it can do a short burst of up to 3.2KW. Consequently, the units will not cope with high load from simultaneous demands but may need grid supplementation. Bear in mind the requirements of cooking, using an electrical kettle; hair dryers and airconditioning on total draw especially when simultaneous.

[NAK302]

we recently looked into storage whilst still being on grid. it is legal here to do it now but the electric company no longer pays for the excess they receive once the hybrid is installed.

LG Chem’s RESU 6.4EX product, their second generation residential energy storage product following the RESU 5.0, has 6.4kWh total capacity and with a manufacturer recommendation of 90% DoD this provides 5.78kWh usable capacity. Up to two expansion units can be used with the main battery to give a maximum expansion size of 6.4 + 3.2 + 3.2 = 12.8kWh total (11.5kWh useable at 90% depth of discharge).

the inverter needed to be changed as well to accommodate the hybrid system, which added to the cost, along with extra panels added to our existing panels. apparently the new inverter also allows for irregular power from different banks of panels from various parts of the roof top. quite clever really, but a little bit too expensive for us at the moment. being self sufficient by the time we retire (8-10 years) is the goal.

[bobthebilda]

Mass production of sun capturing and storage products mmmmmmm. Put a metal plate, and a plant in the sun, and see which one is the hottest after a few hours. In 15 years time, we will probably have the government paying people to get rid of Solar panels and storage systems, as stored heat will be a major contributor to global warming. If capturing more sunlight was beneficial, then why dont we see life thriving on the planets closer to the sun?

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

If capturing more sunlight was beneficial, then why dont we see life thriving on the planets closer to the sun?

yep that's it in a nut shell

why would I want to capture more sunlight it will only fade my curtains faster let alone add to global warming !!!.....

is that you tony ! I hear you don't like the ugly look of wind power either

[Mowdit]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Mass production of sun capturing and storage products mmmmmmm. Put a metal plate, and a plant in the sun, and see which one is the hottest after a few hours. In 15 years time, we will probably have the government paying people to get rid of Solar panels and storage systems, as stored heat will be a major contributor to global warming. If capturing more sunlight was beneficial, then why dont we see life thriving on the planets closer to the sun?

No one ever looks at global warming this way

Better rip up the roads then too, asphalt is a major contributer to heat retension.

I remember seeing some satelite thermal imaging done 20years apart, the increase in heat was attributed to road paving where once there was gravel

Maybe I should run some copper pipe under the asphalt to heat my water too

Ive got UV resistant curtains, clothes and use sunscreen, to be safer I might have to move further SOUTH

[Mowdit]

I have the opportunity to by a number of deep cycle gel batteries that were used as part of a power back up system.

Is it actually worth doing with this in the pipeline ?

We currently produce just over twice as much as we use,5kw system.
(based on the "smart meter" readings over the past 11 months)

Feed in at 6 to 8 cents per Kilowatt hour is a JOKE
(maybe I should start billing a "supply" fee for my "network" to supply them!)

[wodahs]

as I don't officially know I cant answer but my feeling would be no

as I think there is more hardware with the tesla set up that just battery's and you may actually need the rest to go with the battery's your getting and that may be the area where it all comes apart for you

im under the understanding the tesla setup is all plug and play ready with every thing internal but would love to hear the official answer my self

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Mowdit

Maybe I should run some copper pipe under the asphalt to heat my water too

Dont laugh we installed 3500sq/m of it at an airport project I did a few years ago under the tarmac. even in europe the results were amazing.

JP