Have we come forward much in the last 12-15 years?

[HULK_I6T]

From the falcon xc and holden kingswood we have come forward in leaps and bounds to get to the ef falcon and vt commodore, from quality to standard equipment, safety and performance.

However Looking at cars like the ef falcon or the vt commodore have we really come forward that much with the fg falcon and vf commodore? I dont think we have seen the same advances we saw from kingswood/xc falc to the ef/vt.

is the current models standard equipment, safety, econony and performance leaps and bounds from the ef falcon or vt commodore? Even the look of the car isnt that much better.

i have no doubt the current models are better cars but have we made the same significant advances we saw from the late 70s to late 90s? To me it seems more like a slow evolution than rapid advances.

One area which i think we have really stepped up our game is the performance models, like a f6 or boss335, hsv cars too, there was nothing like them back in ef to vt. But the rest of the range, im not convinced we have made significant advances?

[Ford_The_Win]

Go and drive an EF GLi and then an FG and try to say they haven't come a long way.... EF petrol guzzling boat, crap brakes, crank windows, tape deck... air conditioning and automatic transmission extra cost options on all models except the Fairmonts...the VS Commodore was even worse.

[Peter B - CV8]

Push button starting is now available on most "upmarket" car models. I remember when it was a standard item for most cars (especially English) made in the 50's.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

Push button starting is now available on most "upmarket" car models. I remember when it was a standard item for most cars (especially English) made in the 50's.

I just bought the better half the top of the range new Mirage in auto...

15k in the road with a few bits added... Oh, it has push button start...

The biggest advances have been in the small / city cars.... they have essentially halved in price every 10 years when you compare what you get for your money.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Go and drive an EF GLi and then an FG and try to say they haven't come a long way.... EF petrol guzzling boat, crap brakes, crank windows, tape deck... air conditioning and automatic transmission extra cost options on all models except the Fairmonts...the VS Commodore was even worse.

Engine Power outputs from late 70s (XC/Kingswood) to mid 90s (EF/VT) has doubled, fuel usage has halved. The advances from there are not that significant.

If anything the current models have more gadgets and little nice little touches but nothing substantive.

[RedHotGT]

Wow - I actually thought you were taking the p!ss when you wrote that...

So - XC/HX was 1977 - compared to 1995 EF so we're talking 18 years...

Now - to compare the EF 1995 to the FG 2013 thats another 18 years...

So lets think about this:
EF GLi sold new for $30k
It had window winders, a tape deck, a drivers airbag, and was only available to drink petrol.
The brakes weren't that flash, the cup holders were the worst design ever, the knobs would fall off the radio.
In the EF range you did have the option for a station wagon, even a sporty XR6 (which is a positive - and I used to own one!) though the most powerful car in the whole range was the XR8 that rolled out a massive 170kw (where the standard GLi had 157kw).
It was still competing with the VS Commodore - though sold poorly for a number of reasons. Wasn't exactly the Falcon's best car range or shining moment in history.

Let's now talk about the FG XT
Retails for $37k (a $7,000 increase in 18 years is basically NOTHING - I bet you've had a bigger pay rise over all that time)
Standard equipment includes 16" Alloys, LOTS of airbags (not just for the driver), technology options like Bluetooth, Ipod connectivity, CD player, Cruise Control, Traction Control, Dynamic Stability Control, Rear parking sensors, power windows all round, Independent Rear Suspension, ABS, Electronic Brake Force Distribution, plus more...
(all those new technologies seem simple now - because they've been around forever - but developing them wasn't free and were big achievements)
The FG range also includes the option to buy a turbo 4cylinder (Ecoboost), the EcoLPI (LPG), and your regular fuel sipper.
195kw from the Petrol 6cyl (a 25% increase in power) plus better handling and braking performance.
And - the range is quite large with the FG, sure you can't buy the XR8, but you have the option for FPV with the GS/GT range (there was never a true special/collectable model from the EF) and yes - you can't buy a station wagon.

You still reckon there is nothing substantially different after 18 years?
Drive one after the other, and then let me know if you still feel the same......

[max_torq]

IRS, DOHC, Factory Forced Induction; we used to dream of these things in 1995.

[Iggle Piggle]

Have we come forward much in 12-15 years?

I only do about 18000km per year, so figure I've come forward somewhere between 216000km to 270000km in that time.

Originally Posted by f6_benito

From the falcon xc and holden kingswood we have come forward in leaps and bounds...

Yeah, those old cars had pretty heavy clutches, but get used to them and you can come forward without all the bunny-hopping.

Originally Posted by f6_benito

I dont think we have seen the same advances we saw from kingswood/xc falc.

Yeah, but when we had Kingswoods and XC Falcons we were fit young bucks with decent rigs on us, and those chicks that made those advances have likely grown up and moved on, had families and stuff.

[fte50]

EF2 was good for its time but in contrast to FG drove / performed like a boat, and its styling somewhat resembles it 18yrs on (though that's personal).
If at the very least since EF, Ford and its suppliers have learned how to remedy failing brake lights and fading yellowing headlight lenses, so active safety has been restored.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by RedHotGT

Wow - I actually thought you were taking the p!ss when you wrote that...

So - XC/HX was 1977 - compared to 1995 EF so we're talking 18 years...

Now - to compare the EF 1995 to the FG 2013 thats another 18 years...

So lets think about this:
EF GLi sold new for $30k
It had window winders, a tape deck, a drivers airbag, and was only available to drink petrol.
The brakes weren't that flash, the cup holders were the worst design ever, the knobs would fall off the radio.
In the EF range you did have the option for a station wagon, even a sporty XR6 (which is a positive - and I used to own one!) though the most powerful car in the whole range was the XR8 that rolled out a massive 170kw (where the standard GLi had 157kw).
It was still competing with the VS Commodore - though sold poorly for a number of reasons. Wasn't exactly the Falcon's best car range or shining moment in history.

Let's now talk about the FG XT
Retails for $37k (a $7,000 increase in 18 years is basically NOTHING - I bet you've had a bigger pay rise over all that time)
Standard equipment includes 16" Alloys, LOTS of airbags (not just for the driver), technology options like Bluetooth, Ipod connectivity, CD player, Cruise Control, Traction Control, Dynamic Stability Control, Rear parking sensors, power windows all round, Independent Rear Suspension, ABS, Electronic Brake Force Distribution, plus more...
(all those new technologies seem simple now - because they've been around forever - but developing them wasn't free and were big achievements)
The FG range also includes the option to buy a turbo 4cylinder (Ecoboost), the EcoLPI (LPG), and your regular fuel sipper.
195kw from the Petrol 6cyl (a 25% increase in power) plus better handling and braking performance.
And - the range is quite large with the FG, sure you can't buy the XR8, but you have the option for FPV with the GS/GT range (there was never a true special/collectable model from the EF) and yes - you can't buy a station wagon.

You still reckon there is nothing substantially different after 18 years?
Drive one after the other, and then let me know if you still feel the same......

I see that you compare base model for base model. Fair enough but many of the features were available in the ef but just not on the gli. Try g6e vs fairmont ghia?

Maybe the ef ghia had the superior leather seats, interior trim, better stereo quality.

I don't really call Bluetooth and iPod connectivity as game changers. You can have 50 airbags but you only need front and side impact protection.

Don't get me wrong I agree the newer cars are better cars but I question how far forward we have come in that time. More gimmick style additions.

[mik]

You only have to do a fast run through the hills in an old car and a new car and the difference is glaringly obvious.

[shyun]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

I see that you compare base model for base model. Fair enough but many of the features were available in the ef but just not on the gli. Try g6e vs fairmont ghia?

Maybe the ef ghia had the superior leather seats, interior trim, better stereo quality.

I don't really call Bluetooth and iPod connectivity as game changers. You can have 50 airbags but you only need front and side impact protection.

Don't get me wrong I agree the newer cars are better cars but I question how far forward we have come in that time. More gimmick style additions.

I agree, most of the improvements are basically related to electronics since they have got a lot cheaper. Even if you go back another 15 years or so, an XE Fairmont ghia still has most of the features of an EF.
I think a lot of people are comparing a new FG to a beat up old EF with 300k on the clock

Originally Posted by mik

You only have to do a fast run through the hills in an old car and a new car and the difference is glaringly obvious.

If you actually fix up the stuffed old suspension on the old car its not that obvious. Plus new cars have a higher centre of gravity and 200kg of extra baggage

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

I see that you compare base model for base model. Fair enough but many of the features were available in the ef but just not on the gli. Try g6e vs fairmont ghia?

Maybe the ef ghia had the superior leather seats, interior trim, better stereo quality.

I don't really call Bluetooth and iPod connectivity as game changers. You can have 50 airbags but you only need front and side impact protection.

Don't get me wrong I agree the newer cars are better cars but I question how far forward we have come in that time. More gimmick style additions.

Wow - really?

So - lets look at this another way...
In 1995 there was a new movie released called Toy Story - you might have heard of it....
It was quite an amazing film at the time, totally rendered digital graphics, Pixar was right at the forefront of the development at the time. It was the first digitally animated box-office film ever made.
It cost them about $30,000,000 to make it.

Fast forward to 2010 - when Toy Story 3 came out...
Just the same right? Animated Kids movie about a Cowboy and a Spaceman.
On screen - it's still animated... but it is way more fluid... It has 'gimmicks' like 3D, and a more in-depth sound experience...
It also cost them about $200,000,000 to make it.

What I'm getting at - is at the end user, the perception is that it's pretty much the same... Sure - a couple of new things like 'real' looking water, and more detailed animations, but has it come REALLY that far in 15 years?
I'll bet the guys in the production area would say YES...

How about Windows 95?? Also made it big in 1995. What's that like compared to Windows 8 today?? You can still type word documents, browse the internet, log in to forums... Not that much more advanced right??

The humble toilet hasn't changed a whole lot over the years either...
What do you expect - when you've got the general concept right... why change it???

Oh - and you say that they've been mostly 'gimmick' style additions...
Ask anyone that's been in a sticky situation on the road who has used the benefits of stability control, EBFD, or all those pesky airbags... I reckon they like advances in those 'gimmicks'...

[Road_Warrior]

What "giant leap" was there in the intervening years between the XC and the EF?? No more steel bumpers and introduction of EFI? That's all as far as I can see.

Perhaps the introduction of a driver's airbag, coil-sprung rear suspension and SOHC I6 in that period as well, but there was nothing else ground breaking introduced with respect to powertrains (or anything else) in that period.

Between EF and FG, we've had 2 new V8's, a turbo I6, a twin cam head for the I6 giving it more power, torque and fuel efficiency than the old iron block V8's of yesteryear, a turbo 4 pot, IRS, a plethora of safety features that were only dreams 18 years prior, plus a top notch 6 speed auto from Germany and an SUV spun off from the Falcon that was 100% home grown by Ford Australia and is still a family favourite 9 years after it was introduced.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by shyun

I agree, most of the improvements are basically related to electronics since they have got a lot cheaper. Even if you go back another 15 years or so, an XE Fairmont ghia still has most of the features of an EF.
I think a lot of people are comparing a new FG to a beat up old EF with 300k on the clock

Sometimes I am staggered by things that are said around here...

So - you're gonna compare the XE Fairmont Ghia to an EF (Fairmont Ghia - just to keep the relevance - right?)

Why not compare the ESP while we're at it? So a strangled Carb fed V8 fuel guzzler with the single-rail 4-speed... (cos you couldn't get an auto - remember)
Compare that to the Tickford Enhanced 4.0lt or even the 5.0lt Injected V8 that was in the EF Ghia. Even the 4-speed auto wasn't bad in the EF, they had plenty of go (compared to what was around at the time).
How about the MASSIVE premium sound box shoved into the dash of the XE? Thats pretty similar to the CD stacker in the EF right? Not to mention the 8-speaker stereo in the EF.
Did I mention the optional body kits you could get for the EF? Don't recall anything like that available for the XE - maybe the driving light could count as an additional option - maybe.
Leather trim on the XE? Nope... You can have the scheel stuff - which is fantastic, until you realise that the seat was incorrectly specified and only a midget can easily get in and out of the car.
But in an EF - you could adjust the height of the steering column to allow for any height driver.... Not in the XE?? Just live with it....
If you had the coin, you could option the XE with power windows etc... but that all comes standard in the EF...

Regardless of mileage - we're talking specifications, fittings, and equipment...

I reckon any engineer that has worked on the 'next' model of any Falcon will be able to explain to you in great detail how far we've come.

What are your expectations?? What's missing from the driving experience that you require??

[ute83]

Here's another view, we have a 1989 laser wagon ghia. It has EFI, 5 speed manual, central locking. electric mirrors, disc brakes all round and independent suspension on the rear. There are brand new cars sold right now that have drum brakes and do not have independent suspension on the back.

[jpblue1000]

We only measure what we are interested in!
While the basic architecture of the cars are similar I propose;
if you are swayed by style then there has been significant movement, but can style really be regarded as progress.
If performance is your thing then development of better power with less fuel, better braking and handling through better body regidity, suspension control and electronic aids would suggest advancement, now even the most pedestrian driver can attain the speed that once only a great driver could in a daily hack. (scary)
If safety is your thing then progress has added 5 stars, again through better body design, material choice and use and more additional electronic aids over the older models.
If price is your thing then again significant progress has been made. recently it was reported that for the average australian automobiles are the most affordable they have ever been, huge developments must have been made to make the cars cheaper to construct, design, manufacturinga nd logistics...the business of making cars
I would suggest there has been even greater development in automotive design, manufacturing and marketing over the last 10 years then the earlier period the OP identified.

JP

[Wretched]

Well this could be a thesis in itself.

I have no doubt there had been much progress within the local car industry between the XD and the EF Falcon. I remember looking at the EF thinking it was a complete revolution.
We had an EL GLi and while it did the job of ferrying us around it was a little hairy with regards to handling.
Anyway I think the single biggest improvement was putting the handbrake back at the console instead of the annoying umbrella style of the earlier models. Just as annoying as the foot operated emergency brake.

Anyway back on topic, now while that period between 79 and 94/95 showed great improvement to our local products, I wonder how we faired against similar cars from overseas? Obviously the main players were the Japanese and Europeans. Had they advanced further than us?

Moving on to the current generation I have to say that the current FG Falcon is a bigger leap forward from the EF than the EF was from the XD. Far more technology packed into the drivetrain, body structure, interior, safety, tyres, brakes, the list goes on. Unfortunately overall quality control still lags in my opinion. The local cars though have progressed slower than their overseas counterparts in most areas and even compared to their smaller siblings.

The LW Focus is for me one of the best show cased cars from Ford to indicate how far forward we have advanced. To think of all the technology (engines, transmissions, tyres, safety, gadgets, interior, quality, etc) has been packaged into a hatch back (and sedan) compared to what was offered with the Laser not that long a go, even the original LR Focus (stil regarded as a better car dynamically).

As an industry as a whole (world wide) you only have to look at what the just released S class (even Rolls Royce) are offering over what they did back in the 80's and even early 90's.
The next overhaul from the industry will be engines, whether the propulsion will be electric remains to be seen but looking at the BMW I8 and I3 offerings, these might be a hint of what is to come in the next 5 - 10 years.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

What "giant leap" was there in the intervening years between the XC and the EF??

.

XC Falcon 92kw at 3900rpm. 289nm @1900rpm, 160km top speed, 15.7 litres per 100km fuel economy, 0-100km/h in 13.8 seconds.

EF falcon 157kw at 4800rpm, 357nm torque at 3000rpm, 210km/h top speed, 13.1 litres per 100km fuel economy, 0-100km/h in 8.5 secs

XC to EF : That is 71% more powerful, 24% more torque, 17% less fuel, 31% faster top speed, 5 seconds quicker to 100km/h!!! Fair gains here..

Not to mention the advances to the fit of the panels and detail of the interior, the nice way the doors shut instead a a clack from the XC falcon. You could put your finger in between the panels in the XC falcon, not so in the EF, less so with FG.

Now compare EF (as it was when new) to the current model... Yes the Fg is better no doubt but nowhere near the differences in advances made in previous era. Todays advances are more so in the NVH levels, headlights with projector lights, a bit of fuel economy savings and more gadgets included, lights that dim etc.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Well this could be a thesis in itself.

The LW Focus is for me one of the best show cased cars from Ford to indicate how far forward we have advanced. To think of all the technology (engines, transmissions, tyres, safety, gadgets, interior, quality, etc) has been packaged into a hatch back (and sedan) compared to what was offered with the Laser not that long a go, even the original LR Focus (stil regarded as a better car dynamically).

.

Good point, as forward as the EF was over the XC, maybe we lagged in the overall sceme of things.

Does anyone really think the FG is quantum leaps forward over the FG, or the VF is quantum leaps forward over the VT?

Lets consider that computers have evolved exponentially during the past few years, way way way ahead of the period of XC to EF, exponentially is an understatement. However the movement in automotive technology and innovation/quality has not moved exponentially with the times. Id call the Fg in a climate of exponential technology change to be subtle improvement over EF.

In todays climate when we can get ipads for a few hundred dollars with great graphics, are we stunned to see mechanical manual speedo dials? the quality of the ICC unit in the dash of todays cars? its mid 90s technology at best.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

XC Falcon 92kw at 3900rpm. 289nm @1900rpm, 160km top speed, 15.7 litres per 100km fuel economy, 0-100km/h in 13.8 seconds.

EF falcon 157kw at 4800rpm, 357nm torque at 3000rpm, 210km/h top speed, 13.1 litres per 100km fuel economy, 0-100km/h in 8.5 secs

XC to EF : That is 71% more powerful, 24% more torque, 17% less fuel, 31% faster top speed, 5 seconds quicker to 100km/h!!! Fair gains here..

Not to mention the advances to the fit of the panels and detail of the interior, the nice way the doors shut instead a a clack from the XC falcon. You could put your finger in between the panels in the XC falcon, not so in the EF, less so with FG.

Now compare EF (as it was when new) to the current model... Yes the Fg is better no doubt but nowhere near the differences in advances made in previous era. Todays advances are more so in the NVH levels, headlights with projector lights, a bit of fuel economy savings and more gadgets included, lights that dim etc.

Ok well why didn't you say that you're only comparing the engines?

Sure, you could say there was more advancement from the late 70's to the mid 90's with the internal combustion engine than there has been from the mid 90's till now, at least with the local cars. But there is a lot more to a car than just the engine...

The ICE is in its twilight years. The big R&D cash is going into electric/battery development. I wouldn't expect the ICE to advance significantly from where its at now.

This exact question pops into my head regularly, and I'm always amazed at the sheer speed of car advancements we've seen in the last 5 or so years. The proliferation of safety systems is probably the biggest example. Then look at some of the materials being used - carbon fiber, aluminium, composites. Like all technology, the rate of advancement seems exponential - it just keeps building on itself, gaining momentum, speeding up.

Forget about KW and acceleration figures - that isn't what drives car advancement anymore and is barely relevant to it. And the humble Ford Falcon is probably not the best example on which to make this comparison, although admittedly its all relative.

[93EB_SXR6]

Crash test an EF, crash test an FG... then tell me there hasn't been much development in the last 18 years.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Ok well why didn't you say that you're only comparing the engines?

.

No the review is not limited to engines, this is just one example.

At the end of the day, the car is measured on how it drives, how it looks and how comfortable it is. Seems to be diminishing returns of late in these areas... with manufacturers clutching at gadgets in an effort to appear to be enhancing their product.

My acid test is if you are taking the car to the local shop for a 2 minute drive, what is it about the car you will notice? the power, the look, the comfort. thats it. those are the areas I look to see tangible improvements, the gadgets are novelty value to sell the car and secondary to the driving enjoyment.

Does a VF commodore with its 3.0 motor really drive better than a Holden VT with its 3.8? (assuming both are new).

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

My acid test is if you are taking the car to the local shop for a 2 minute drive, what is it about the car you will notice? the power, the look, the comfort. thats it.

I'd suggest you stop noticing the power on a 2 minute drive to the shops while on acid - wait til it warms up, and stop taking acid!

If I took acid and drove to the shops, I would probably notice the dinosaurs farting rainbows before the power, look and comfort.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

Does a VF commodore with its 3.0 motor really drive better than a Holden VT with its 3.8? (assuming both are new).

Ben Ito, I guess by your avatar that you are the opwner of a nice new pretty car, and the above question suggests to me you are also only 18 years old, well done on the nice new pretty car. But to ask about quality of drive between those two cars or any seperated by similar time suggests to me you havent driven many old cars. If my assumptions are wrong then surely you have forgotten how they were to drive. At the time compared to contemopraries they may have been good, but by modern standards when compared to todays cars they are nowhere near as good. I wont say bad as evolution improves the type, and to be fair the old cars ferried most of us around safely. Id suggest again that the last 10 years has seen greater development across the industry than the previuos 10-20. You may disagree as Im gathering your only concerned about power. As mentioned many time already significant development has occurred.

JP

[mik]

Originally Posted by shyun

I agree, most of the improvements are basically related to electronics since they have got a lot cheaper. Even if you go back another 15 years or so, an XE Fairmont ghia still has most of the features of an EF.
I think a lot of people are comparing a new FG to a beat up old EF with 300k on the clock



If you actually fix up the stuffed old suspension on the old car its not that obvious. Plus new cars have a higher centre of gravity and 200kg of extra baggage

A lot of extra baggage is safety gear, bigger brakes, abs brakes, traction control, stability control, bigger wheels, if you think an older car is a match for a modern big family sedan by all means try keeping up with one as he increases speed through the mountains, you might be in for a rude awakening.

[zilo]

Looks to me like we've put on hundreds of kilograms in the last 20 years.

The VL commodore (with the Nissan engine) was the last of the good commodores in my opinion.

Weighed in at around 1270 kilos.

The current offering is around 1600 kilos.


Such is progress?

[mik]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

No the review is not limited to engines, this is just one example.

At the end of the day, the car is measured on how it drives, how it looks and how comfortable it is. Seems to be diminishing returns of late in these areas... with manufacturers clutching at gadgets in an effort to appear to be enhancing their product.

My acid test is if you are taking the car to the local shop for a 2 minute drive, what is it about the car you will notice? the power, the look, the comfort. thats it. those are the areas I look to see tangible improvements, the gadgets are novelty value to sell the car and secondary to the driving enjoyment.

Does a VF commodore with its 3.0 motor really drive better than a Holden VT with its 3.8? (assuming both are new).

Absolutely.

[Express]

Originally Posted by f6_benito

My acid test is if you are taking the car to the local shop for a 2 minute drive, what is it about the car you will notice? the power, the look, the comfort.

On a 2 minute drive to the shop I’d notice how modern day tyres shred just as easily as 15 year old tyres as I drift the car through the first half dozen corners.

On the way back I’d probably notice my neighbours a lot more.


Really there is no contest. Todays cars as an overall package (safety, performance, comfort & efficiency) have it all over a 15 year old car.

Which one of them is the most fun is debatable.


.

[Road Games]

You always give yourself away Hulk with ya thread topics ...