Smoking, a different approach

[flappist]

Yet again there is a furore from some sections of society over cigarettes.
The anti smokers hate them and wnat them banned.
The smokers feel they are being persecuted and are not happy about it.
Smoking is bad for you but then so are lots of things and it is YOUR life not someone elses.

The tiny brains running the country have only one solution for everything, TAX.

Road tax will stop speeding and save lives
Alcopop tax will stop drinking and save lives.
Smoke tax will stop smoking and save live.

These incredibly clever plans all have three things in common. The don't stop what they are supposed to stop, they don't save lives but they DO make money for the government to waste.

The biggest problem is that smoking is addictive and giving it up is very difficult (but not as difficult as the goverment giving up its "new tax" addiction).

So here is the "Flappist plan" to control smoking.

As of 1 Jan 2011 cigarettes etc become a S4 drug.

For the next 12 months any adult can go to their doctor and apply for a "smokers license" that will allow them to buy as many cigs or whatever as they like from pharmacies which will be the only place you can get them.

All the excess tax is removed and the price of smokes goes back to what it is in the free world, $3-5 per packet.

As of 1 Jan 2012 no new licenses are given out except on exceptional circumstances (e.g. smoker migrates) so young kids can't ever take up smoking, never get addicted and 40 years from now there are no smokers at all.

Tourists etc. who visit here declare thet they are smokers at immigration have their passport tagged for the duration of their stay and can buy cigs from the pharmacies.

Cigarette sales are recorded against the license and if you decide to give up incentives could be made available.

AS cigs are now a drug, doing naughty things with cigs (e.g. supplying kids or whatever) will attract the same penalties as other drug offences.

So the bottom line:

Pros:
Smokers are no longer being persecuted.
No new smokers after 2011 so the anti-smokers are happy (well they are never happy but slightly less angry)
Smokers are not being overly taxed leaving money for others things.

Cons:
Less tax income for GovCo
Diminishing market for tobacco industry
Cigs need to be bought from pharmacies not servos, pubs or corner stores.
It will take many years to finally end smoking.

So what do you think of the Flappist plan?

[RACINGdork]

Love it flappist. 10/10.

[BIGJB]

The problem with this is the "Black market" in tobacco would go through the roof.
The only reason it is illegal to grow your own tobacco in most countries is that the
governments can not tax what is grow in your backyard.

[RACINGdork]

Ill also add that the Gov will never go for it as they love the tax $$$ coming in!

i also have the same idea about heroin. as a licenced heroin user you get you "meds" cheap wiping out dealers, traffickers, lowering the crime rate (robberies for a fix) ect.

[RACINGdork]

Whos gonna bother growing tobbacco when its $3-4 a pack?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by T2TE50#134

The problem with this is the "Black market" in tobacco would go through the roof.
The only reason it is illegal to grow your own tobacco in most countries is that the
governments can not tax what is grow in your backyard.

Why would it go through the roof?

The price of smokes will be very low so chop chop cannot compete. Any adult who already smokes will get a license.

The only market will be kids and as it will be a criminal offence to sell smokes to kids only an idiot will risk being sent to jail for a crime involving children.

Even murderers have standards and life for rock spiders is never fun nor long.....

[BOSHOG]

the price of darts wont drop, tobacco companies would sell a smaller quantity of durries but still want to make the same profit so the price would rise back up to current levels in a hurry.

im all for finding a way to cut smoking out of our society, im just not sure how to go about it.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

the price of darts wont drop, tobacco companies would sell a smaller quantity of durries but still want to make the same profit so the price would rise back up to current levels in a hurry.

im all for finding a way to cut smoking out of our society, im just not sure how to go about it.

Why would they sell less? If they are cheaper they would sell more wouldn't they?

[BIGJB]

Because you are still going to have the 15-18 y\o market of smokers out there.
Not real sure how big of an issue that is these days but certainly when I was at school
a lot of us smoked (because it made you cool). So surely there would be oppertunists
out there that would cater to this market.
The threat of jail isn't something that will deter the sort of person who would sell the
smokes to kids anyway I would think.

[Fev]

10/10 for the Idea. If only you were an advisor over there in the ACT.... You'd probably only last a week for making too much sense though

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by flappist

Why would they sell less? If they are cheaper they would sell more wouldn't they?

if no more licenses are issued after 2011 then of course they will sell less as the population gives up smoking/dies off. dont get me wrong, thats a good thing, but big tobacco will need to make their profit somehow so up the prices go

[flappist]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

if no more licenses are issued after 2011 then of course they will sell less as the population gives up smoking/dies off. dont get me wrong, thats a good thing, but big tobacco will need to make their profit somehow so up the prices go

So you are worried about 10 or 20 years in the future?

Do you think that the price of petrol will be $50 per litre when the majority of cars run on other fuels?

Or will it get cheaper because they have a lot and wish to sell it?

Maybe there will be less big tobacco companies?

There used to be quite a number of gun manufacturing companies in Australia prior to 1996, not so many now and licensing is extremely tight but the prices have not gone through the roof......

[Iggypoppin']

Flappist...what would we do without you...i commend this and other such threads. I'd rep you but I've already Repped you too much!

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by T2TE50#134

Because you are still going to have the 15-18 y\o market of smokers out there.
Not real sure how big of an issue that is these days but certainly when I was at school
a lot of us smoked (because it made you cool). So surely there would be opportunists
out there that would cater to this market.
The threat of jail isn't something that will deter the sort of person who would sell the
smokes to kids anyway I would think.

Yes, we already have under 18s illegally buying cigarettes. What the government fears the most is losing the tax paying smokers to people who sell illegal tobacco for their customers to roll their own. People will smoke without a licence just as people without a current driver's licence will drive a car.

Chemists selling cigarettes? A bit like going to the Catholic Church for a pamphlet on abortion. Most, if not all items in a Chemist are to help people with their health - cigarettes are the opposite.

Perhaps they could have good old Tobacconist shops
http://www.youtube.com/user/montypyt...11/akbflkF_1zY

I don't smoke, don't like it and don't want to, but I don't buy the latest excuse to siphon even more money from the pockets of ordinary Australians.

[schnoods]

Imagine all the counterfeit licences!

if you do turn 18 and decide to take up smoking and you are denied a licence, i do see alot of complications legally.

Honestly being a former smoker, that plan is written very well.... by a non smoker.

Im sure we all dont have paper bags on our heads and realise that if there is a substance or drug that people are willing to use, it is available illegal or not. Im sure everyone has been to high school before and there was always the smokers that had there own group on the back of the oval. They obtained them through means that arent legal. Same with dope, ice, etc.

As much of a burden that smoking puts on the health care system, I feel that it still should be available to the public the way it is.

[dsyfer]

The government's new healthcare plan is based on being funded by tobacco tax. If everyone quits smoking the healthcare system would colapse, but the government knows that people won't all quit smoking, and that addicts will pay any price for their drug, you could put cigarettes up to $50 and people will buy them.

Take away revenue from Petrol, Alcohol & Tobacco, and there is no government, we would all need to pay 70% income tax to make up the deficit.

Yet, they waste millions fighting a "war on drugs" instead of collecting billions from the regulation and control of cannabis. Instead the criminals reap the benefits, and they don't even pay tax.

[Riksta]

I just don't like the idea of only being able to get them at pharmacies.

They're not open 24/7 - what about after that big drinking session at 3am on the way home and you realise your chunza supply has been depleted?

[Auslandau]

May be a very good plan except for one tiny matter which is the reason it willl never ever ever happen ..... ever!

Originally Posted by flappist

Cons: ........ Less tax income for GovCo

It was touted a few weeks a go that the price should go up by $6.00 per packet. The Gov didnt like this for 2 reasons:

1. Too many may actually give up smoking
2. Less Gov income

This $2.00 is a great medium price for the increase and would have been very well thought out before implementing (off course timing when the Crud Crew are having a bad week) ....... an estimate by Gov, 3% will give up smoking while they reap 25%. I would think that is being optomistic.

And of course they will get away with it smiling there little faces off because all smokers are bad and need to be punished ....... think I will go and have a smoke tonight for a few hours and then go home and bash the wife and kids ..... OH sorry, that's alcohol.



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[Fev]

Perhaps it's more incentive to join the Navy? Cheap smokes on the boat.

Yvan Eht Nioj guys!

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you are worried about 10 or 20 years in the future?

Do you think that the price of petrol will be $50 per litre when the majority of cars run on other fuels?

Or will it get cheaper because they have a lot and wish to sell it?

Maybe there will be less big tobacco companies?

There used to be quite a number of gun manufacturing companies in Australia prior to 1996, not so many now and licensing is extremely tight but the prices have not gone through the roof......

im not even slightly worried about the price of smokes now or in the future, ill never smoke one, never have. but if raising the cost of smokes makes a few people quit (i know a few who are already trying to kick it) then im all for it

[FGII-XR6]

great idea in theory but it will never work which is a shame as previously mentioned the government won't want to loose the tax revenue , also you would have the retail sector suing for compesation over lost revenue from tobacco sales
maybe a reduction of tax rather than removal would work better and free access to quit products

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

im not even slightly worried about the price of smokes now or in the future, ill never smoke one, never have. but if raising the cost of smokes makes a few people quit (i know a few who are already trying to kick it) then im all for it

G'ment taxing a legal product so people conform to their ethics and morals ..... and people see nothing wrong with that. We are really stuffed aren't we.



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[burnz]

i picked the first one.
allthou i beleive the second one would be more accurate, squabble fest.

the problem is black market and govco wont want it. (oh and they sleep together)

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

G'ment taxing a legal product so people conform to their ethics and morals ..... and people see nothing wrong with that. We are really stuffed aren't we.

The GST is a tax on everything, but I'm not sure the government is making anyone conform to anything when they buy a loaf of bread or call up the pool guy.
I see an additional tax on smoking akin to other "revenue raising" measures (that so many here know about). If you know its' wrong (read illegal, or harmful) and you continue to do it, who here wouldn't keep their pockets open while the cash rolls in. I don't think milking a cashcow is the unique domain of governments.

[OLDFORDNUT]

good idea in principal. by the way smokes did not go up $2 they went up 25% small packs 25%=$2 my pouch of tobacco went up $5 from $20 to $25

[OLDFORDNUT]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

May be a very good plan except for one tiny matter which is the reason it willl never ever ever happen ..... ever!

It was touted a few weeks a go that the price should go up by $6.00 per packet. The Gov didnt like this for 2 reasons:

1. Too many may actually give up smoking
2. Less Gov income

This $2.00 is a great medium price for the increase and would have been very well thought out before implementing (off course timing when the Crud Crew are having a bad week) ....... an estimate by Gov, 3% will give up smoking while they reap 25%. I would think that is being optomistic.

And of course they will get away with it smiling there little faces off because all smokers are bad and need to be punished ....... think I will go and have a smoke tonight for a few hours and then go home and bash the wife and kids ..... OH sorry, that's alcohol.

GOLD haha /////////////////////////////////
If all smokers stopped tomorrow the government would be on its knees reducing tax in the next month on smokes due to it been unfair so they had a rethink.
smokers pay for all non profit government departments

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

G'ment taxing a legal product so people conform to their ethics and morals ..... and people see nothing wrong with that. We are really stuffed aren't we.

yeah we sure are stuffed , just like non smokers footing the bill for treating smoking related illnesses, if this extra money actually goes into the health system whats the big problem?

[OLDFORDNUT]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

yeah we sure are stuffed , just like non smokers footing the bill for treating smoking related illnesses, if this extra money actually goes into the health system whats the big problem?

If all smokers stop tomorrow(will never happen)you will pay an extra 10% income tax very very soon .Then people like you will cry like babies about how unfair it is,
and that my friend is a CERTAiNTY

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by OLDFORDNUT

If all smokers stop tomorrow(will never happen)you will pay an extra 10% very very soon then people like you will cry like babies about how unfair it is,
and that my friend is a CERTAiNTY

what am i crying about? ive stated i dont care either way because im a non smoker. youre the one who just blew up and had a sook lol

[OLDFORDNUT]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

what am i crying about? ive stated i dont care either way because im a non smoker. youre the one who just blew up and had a sook lol

Because at this moment it does not effect you, if they raise your income tax by 10% it most likely will upset you