Opened or Unopened

[Tucool]

Hi

I read with great interest about what is considered an unopened engine...
from what I understand the changing of valve springs is considered unopened in some groups of car enthusiast.... what do you think???

[03XR6T]

I personally think that changing valve springs makes the engine 'opened' but some forums/workshops etc don't. The reasoning is something like 'it makes it an equal playing field, ie. BA & BF have different springs so this allows them to run the same gear.'
In my opinion, that is not a valid reason as many components on a later model car are different. Using the above reasoning, we could argue that BA's should be able to replace rods with stronger units to allow more boost/power as per the BF's while still retaining their 'unopened' status! Not cool...

[LowEL2XR8]

I'd take the dictionary definition on this one. Not opened means not opened.
Change intake up to manifold, change exhaust system is fine.

But removing a rocker cover or taking a manifold off is clearly opening the engine.

[Bluepower]

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

I'd take the dictionary definition on this one. Not opened means not opened.
Change intake up to manifold, change exhaust system is fine.

But removing a rocker cover or taking a manifold off is clearly opening the engine.

Makes sense to me :

[MAD]

Its a weird one, driven a lot by the individuals 'sense' of what they feel is unopened.
In an N/A OHC engine I wouldnt really consider changing cams as opening the engine, neither would I count extractors, but I think that is mostly because of the ease of which it can be done.
I would almost argue as to say that unopened means anything done that didnt require removal of the engine, but the that opens up a new world to turbo owners that can just bolt on a bigger one with a bigger intercooler, etc.
When do we count these new turbo vehicles having the boost upped via a flash edit as 'opened', when do we start to say "unopened ECU".

[ADSXR8]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

Makes sense to me :

x 3 for me!

[SpoolMan]

There is more to this than just valve springs.
Been done and discussed so many times, its like politics and religion cant get a uniform on it, the more you look into it the messier it gets, punched cats, fuel additives etc, etc.......... whether a member thinks his car is opened or unopened it don't matter in the end it comes down to honesty with the member listing there mods against there times.
Workshops that have adapted a valve spring change as unopened will still see it this way regardless of what some thing.
example:
Someone posting an engine is unopened, when it really has been opened, it doesn't anything for mods Vs ET comparison, its all about how honest one is with listing there mods against there ET..

So rather than debate what's opened and unopened its easier to rely on honesty, because in the end that's all we have to go by the posters word and what he types.

As a Forum we wont state what should be opened and unopened, everyone is entitled to think what they like and leave it to there own interpretation.

[EXR8ED]

I consider my BF XR8 ute unopened as it has stock internals with bolt ons only, BUT the oil pump gears have been changed to billet so this could also now be considered opened as while the oil pump gears DO NOT give a power gain they allow me to rev the cr@ppola out of it thus giving me an advantage. This is why if anyone asks I tell em it has stock internals with bolt ons and pump gears. Honesty. So I stand with spooly and LowEL2XR8.

Cheers
Glenn

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

There is more to this than just valve springs.
Been done and discussed so many times, its like politics and religion cant get a uniform on it, the more you look into it the messier it gets, punched cats, fuel additives etc, etc.......... whether a member thinks his car is opened or unopened it don't matter in the end it comes down to honesty with the member listing there mods against there times.
Workshops that have adapted a valve spring change as unopened will still see it this way regardless of what some thing.
example:
Someone posting an engine is unopened, when it really has been opened, it doesn't anything for mods Vs ET comparison, its all about how honest one is with listing there mods against there ET..

So rather than debate what's opened and unopened its easier to rely on honesty, because in the end that's all we have to go by the posters word and what he types.

As a Forum we wont state what should be opened and unopened, everyone is entitled to think what they like and leave it to there own interpretation.

Rubbish.... it either has been opened or it hasn't... I would like to see someone sell a can of soft drink after it has had it's contents emptied and filled with beer put back on the shelf as lemonade...(I'm sure you can get what I mean) as for the workshops .... they wrote out a bill for work completed and someone paid for such services ... you can't have it both ways
this is a black and white debate....an unopened motor has nothing to do with
exhaust components or as a whole and fuel additives makes no difference either... it will still run without exhaust and run on kerosene if tuned properly.
if people want to tell lies about their mods, well that is a honesty thing and the truth always comes out somewhere...and as a Forum it is up to us the members to decide what is or isn't... that is what a Forum is for and not let vested interests give us their interpretation, where does it stop.

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by EXR8ED

I consider my BF XR8 ute unopened as it has stock internals with bolt ons only, BUT the oil pump gears have been changed to billet so this could also now be considered opened as while the oil pump gears DO NOT give a power gain they allow me to rev the cr@ppola out of it thus giving me an advantage. This is why if anyone asks I tell em it has stock internals with bolt ons and pump gears. Honesty. So I stand with spooly and LowEL2XR8.

Cheers
Glenn

Agreed...unopened...No advantage gained.. although there has not been any proof that OEM gears are doomed to fail... look at poll and thread on this subject .

[03XR6T]

ECU &/or exhaust mods don't make a difference to whether a car/engine is opened or unopened! It is simply a case of whether or not 'internal' engine components have been changed out...
Valve springs are a part of the 'internal' valve train, thus swapping them out constitutes an opened engine. Same as if cams, valves, rods, pistons, bearings, crank etc etc is changed... Power adders are no different to non-power adders here, if the motor was cracked then it is opened!!
A cracked can of coke is still open, even if it has all of it's contents still in there after a refill right? It doesn't magically get the factory seal back on it because it is full again (albeit with non-original fluid :p ), same as a factory engine with non-factory components isn't 'unopened'.

/Game over.

[Whoosha]

Originally Posted by Tucool

Agreed...unopened...No advantage gained.. although there has not been any proof that OEM gears are doomed to fail... look at poll and thread on this subject .

You didnt one of the first batch of 260 /290 boss motors then and try the usuall boltons did you ? there were at least a dozen members here that were pioneers with these mods only to have huge failures ending in Ford no longer warranting the motors with any mods , But back to the point of the thread for me Open is open. I broke 1 valve spring and had it replaced with another standard by only removeing the rocker cover so does that constitute being classed as open ? Who knows ? at the end of the day it just a inturpretation of the term

[03XR6T]

Sounds like general maintenance to me... Obviously there has to be some exceptions to the rule.

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by 03XR6T

Sounds like general maintenance to me... Obviously there has to be some exceptions to the rule.

Yes the exception to the rule is when you do it, you move to the opened class...

I am not 100% sure but with the BOSS engines and most OHC jobbies, taking the rocker covers off and a slight tweak of the cam timing would be a worthwhile tickle. It has to be black and white imho, you remove anything off the engine and put it back on , be it for reliablity or gains, you have opened it.

[F6BF]

imo unopened is the way it left the factory, all internals are 100% stock

[Tucool]

breakages,failures have to be repaired and provided that it goes back the way it came... unopened.

"exceptions to the rule" was just bad wording

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Tucool

Rubbish.... it either has been opened or it hasn't... I would like to see someone sell a can of soft drink after it has had it's contents emptied and filled with beer put back on the shelf as lemonade...(I'm sure you can get what I mean) as for the workshops .... they wrote out a bill for work completed and someone paid for such services ... you can't have it both ways
this is a black and white debate....an unopened motor has nothing to do with
exhaust components or as a whole and fuel additives makes no difference either... it will still run without exhaust and run on kerosene if tuned properly.
if people want to tell lies about their mods, well that is a honesty thing and the truth always comes out somewhere...and as a Forum it is up to us the members to decide what is or isn't... that is what a Forum is for and not let vested interests give us their interpretation, where does it stop.

So my post is rubbish? whilst something has been opened yes technically is opened, but this don't stop 2 other forums from or anyone else from making changes and still calling it an unopened class, anyone can call it what they like...fact is they call a valve spring change unopened on the ls1 and turbo sites.....gee they could have called it Arnold Horshack who really cares what its called...you call it unopened and I will call it a standard motor with a valve spring change..

Fuels, oil pump gears, exhaust, etc, etc come from a broader picture of changes came from a series of classes we looked at making a few years back after many sh#t fights about what is what, the whole unopened, street and race debate has been going on for years.....in the end all we want to do is race....
Do a search you will find many debates some will be closed on this subject..

[CAT600]

If an engine has been opened to replace a component that will increase the OUTPUT of the car, that to me is opened.

IF an engine has been opened to repair a component, or replace a component that will NOT increase the output but will increase its reliability, I would deem that unopened.

Purposefully changing an item to increase an engine performance, whether one person does it on the sneaky or everyone is doing it together, changes the engines status to "opened"

I agree with you about the honesty aspect Mark, but good tuning with lower boost can yield more power and better results than poor tuning and higher boost....... and the car with lower boost wont float the springs.

As for the BA XR6T vs later factory improved engines......... Gentlemen, choose your weapons.

Daniel

[CAT600]

And to top that off I clicked the wrong poll option..... :togo:

Daniel

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

So my post is rubbish? whilst something has been opened yes technically is opened, but this don't stop 2 other forums from or anyone else from making changes and still calling it an unopened class, anyone can call it what they like...fact is they call a valve spring change unopened on the ls1 and turbo sites.....gee they could have called it Arnold Horshack who really cares what its called...you call it unopened and I will call it a standard motor with a valve spring change..

Fuels, oil pump gears, exhaust, etc, etc come from a broader picture of changes came from a series of classes we looked at making a few years back after many sh#t fights about what is what, the whole unopened, street and race debate has been going on for years.....in the end all we want to do is race....
Do a search you will find many debates some will be closed on this subject..

I'm sure everything has been discussed at length before you and I were born,...does this mean what was right a few hundred years ago is still correct now orrr thats right the earth is flat isn't it... I never anyone say it is a standard motor with a valve spring upgrade? is that like "the fuel tank is empty except for the twenty litres I just put in it " .... there is no need for fights...I consider this is important enough to debate over.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by Tucool

I'm sure everything has been discussed at length before you and I were born,...does this mean what was right a few hundred years ago is still correct now orrr thats right the earth is flat isn't it... I never anyone say it is a standard motor with a valve spring upgrade? is that like "the fuel tank is empty except for the twenty litres I just put in it " .... there is no need for fights...I consider this is important enough to debate over.

Subjects that are discussed and are done to death all end the same way with a thread closure..

On the ls1 & xr6 turbo forum yes its called unopened, here @ AFF its exactly what I or anyone wants it to be called, does it really matter....

Would be more like fuel tank that normally has pump fuel (factory recommendation is 95 ron), now we are using E85 for better performance..

Correct no need for fights, you dismiss posts as rubbish you are setting the tone, posts should be respected everyone has different thoughts on this and many other subjects surrounding classes etc..

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Subjects that are discussed and are done to death all end the same way with a thread closure..

On the ls1 & xr6 turbo forum yes its called unopened, here @ AFF its exactly what I or anyone wants it to be called, does it really matter....

Would be more like fuel tank that normally has pump fuel (factory recommendation is 95 ron), now we are using E85 for better performance..

Correct no need for fights, you dismiss posts as rubbish you are setting the tone, posts should be respected everyone has different thoughts on this and many other subjects surrounding classes etc..

No you are dismissing the discussion because you don't agree with it ... every word that has been said has been to the point... and you keep bringing other parts of the car as an example G/box, good fuel, exhaust... this is not part of being unopened Motor and the poll was for people who don't want to debate .... I get the feeling your going to wield your veto here and that would be ashame

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Tucool

No you are dismissing the discussion because you don't agree with it ... every word that has been said has been to the point... and you keep bringing other parts of the car as an example G/box, good fuel, exhaust... this is not part of being unopened Motor and the poll was for people who don't want to debate .... I get the feeling your going to wield your veto here and that would be ashame

I think you have the "cat by the tail" on this one. What Spooly is saying is only what has been discussed many times before. Because I disagree with him does not mean I call "rubbish" on his post. His posts have merit not because he is a Forum Director, but because they have been supported elsewhere.

Daniel

[Bluepower]

As a forum sponsor, a performance product designer/manufacturer, and as a racer, and as an enthusiast, ill give everyone my spin, which hopefully might not necessarily influence anyone, but if the entire picture is given, maybe people can understand the issues relating before they vote.

Key issues.

1. "LS1/XR6T guys have been calling them unopened if they have valve springs replaced for YEARS.

Well, that is because we are the fools that accept this. I call it this way. DONT LIE TO ME. Has it indeed been opened, even if in order to fit the said springs? if it has, say so. yes, come on say it - "WE OPENED IT, OF COURSE WE DID, THE SPRINGS WILL NOT TELEPORT IN THERE MAGICALLY!!!

2. Originally how did all this happen???

This happened when a particular LS1 tuning shop (no need for names) ran a time which was an unbelieveably good one.

Everyone, the public, myself and even their rivals were very impressed. The company who prepared the car boasted that is was the quickest, fastest, shiniest, etc and also that it was a BIGGER and BETTER feat as the car was stock standard, and even engine unopened.

They forgot to mention that in order to get an LS1 to RPM that it needed some valve springs, then it was "oh yeah, um (staring at their feet) um we er um replaced the valve springs........

3. How does this affect customers wishing to mod their cars?

This is the part that hurts............

Opening an engine even for the fitment for valve springs opens up a plethora of options that can be employed for the benefit of the racer.

XR6T and Barra I6 - the cam phasers can be modded in such a way as to yield down low performance. Im not going into this here, our methods are our own, but it CAN be done.

Say in fact we do this mod, customer races his car and calls it "unopened". I call no fair. What about the opposing shop who has a GENUINE BONA FIDE UNCRACKED MOTOR and runs a half tenth slower than our effort, however the car is TRULY uncracked??

I say shop 2 has done a better job for their client, although forums will not yield to this, as it falls outside of these silly guidelines. This is where it crosses the line of "small talk on a forum" and "direct net effect on a client."

I am proud to say that we hold the Boss uncracked record at 11.76 and that if that engine had been stripped that ford would have found the valvetrain events, sealants and loctites to be factory. We got that car humming by dedication and brains, not by fooling with what is a "grey area".

This wouldn't bother me usually, people can call it what they like, but by the very notion of having "exceptions where the dictionary meaning of unopened can be fooled with" you ruin it for the punter who has A GENUINE UNOPENED CAR which if tuned, driven correctly can be a great PR for a shop, yet tainted with the brush of "oh, with UNOPENED you CAN actually open the engine......."

To me, ridiculous. When you get circumcised, believe it or not fella's we lose a piece. You look down, its gone. Dont lie to me, dont mince words. circumcised is circumcised, unopened is unopened, stock with upgraded springs or pump gears is guess what? Stock with upgraded springs or oil pump gears!

Say what you like, but if discussion such as the "unopened or opened" went before a chief magistrate, the person claiming that unopened with mods that necessitated the enine to be OPENED can still be called UNOPENED would get a hiding, even a low experience QC would have a field day.

To me its laughable. Ill vote unopened is just that, unopened. If someone claims that an "unopened opened unopened" car beats one of my "genuine unopened" time, ill "open" a can of whoop a$$.

Best of luck with this discussion guys, you may have better luck banging you head against a brick wall.

Chris

[Tucool]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

As a forum sponsor, a performance product designer/manufacturer, and as a racer, and as an enthusiast, ill give everyone my spin, which hopefully might not necessarily influence anyone, but if the entire picture is given, maybe people can understand the issues relating before they vote.

Key issues.

1. "LS1/XR6T guys have been calling them unopened if they have valve springs replaced for YEARS.

Well, that is because we are the fools that accept this. I call it this way. DONT LIE TO ME. Has it indeed been opened, even if in order to fit the said springs? if it has, say so. yes, come on say it - "WE OPENED IT, OF COURSE WE DID, THE SPRINGS WILL NOT TELEPORT IN THERE MAGICALLY!!!

2. Originally how did all this happen???

This happened when a particular LS1 tuning shop (no need for names) ran a time which was an unbelieveably good one.

Everyone, the public, myself and even their rivals were very impressed. The company who prepared the car boasted that is was the quickest, fastest, shiniest, etc and also that it was a BIGGER and BETTER feat as the car was stock standard, and even engine unopened.

They forgot to mention that in order to get an LS1 to RPM that it needed some valve springs, then it was "oh yeah, um (staring at their feet) um we er um replaced the valve springs........

3. How does this affect customers wishing to mod their cars?

This is the part that hurts............

Opening an engine even for the fitment for valve springs opens up a plethora of options that can be employed for the benefit of the racer.

XR6T and Barra I6 - the cam phasers can be modded in such a way as to yield down low performance. Im not going into this here, our methods are our own, but it CAN be done.

Say in fact we do this mod, customer races his car and calls it "unopened". I call no fair. What about the opposing shop who has a GENUINE BONA FIDE UNCRACKED MOTOR and runs a half tenth slower than our effort, however the car is TRULY uncracked??

I say shop 2 has done a better job for their client, although forums will not yield to this, as it falls outside of these silly guidelines. This is where it crosses the line of "small talk on a forum" and "direct net effect on a client."

I am proud to say that we hold the Boss uncracked record at 11.76 and that if that engine had been stripped that ford would have found the valvetrain events, sealants and loctites to be factory. We got that car humming by dedication and brains, not by fooling with what is a "grey area".

This wouldn't bother me usually, people can call it what they like, but by the very notion of having "exceptions where the dictionary meaning of unopened can be fooled with" you ruin it for the punter who has A GENUINE UNOPENED CAR which if tuned, driven correctly can be a great PR for a shop, yet tainted with the brush of "oh, with UNOPENED you CAN actually open the engine......."

To me, ridiculous. When you get circumcised, believe it or not fella's we lose a piece. You look down, its gone. Dont lie to me, dont mince words. circumcised is circumcised, unopened is unopened, stock with upgraded springs or pump gears is guess what? Stock with upgraded springs or oil pump gears!

Say what you like, but if discussion such as the "unopened or opened" went before a chief magistrate, the person claiming that unopened with mods that necessitated the enine to be OPENED can still be called UNOPENED would get a hiding, even a low experience QC would have a field day.

To me its laughable. Ill vote unopened is just that, unopened. If someone claims that an "unopened opened unopened" car beats one of my "genuine unopened" time, ill "open" a can of whoop a$$.

Best of luck with this discussion guys, you may have better luck banging you head against a brick wall.

Chris

I may have used to wrong term in saying "rubbish" it didn't occur to me to say to "I don't think so"
But as for the rest... I know Chris has summed this discussion perfectly,
I happen to fall into this bracket of unopened motors and will defend it's
principles to the end without prejudice.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by CAT600

I think you have the "cat by the tail" on this one. What Spooly is saying is only what has been discussed many times before. Because I disagree with him does not mean I call "rubbish" on his post. His posts have merit not because he is a Forum Director, but because they have been supported elsewhere.


Daniel

Correct Dan, if you look through my posting history I laughed at valve spring change being called unopened, all I am saying it don't matter what they call it as long as everyone lists there mods with there ET's, we cant stop people's interpenetration of what they want to call a class on any Forum.

Originally Posted by Tucool

I get the feeling your going to wield your veto here and that would be ashame

Any thread on this Forum if it turns rot, it will be closed..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LS1 Rules:

Wasn't it Street Tuner (Martin Donnon) who wrote the LS1 classes and rules for opened and unopened..

[superpursuit83]

Bluepower are right... I do not know what all the Debate is about..

As mentioned, parts can not magically appear in the engine.. If a cover is removed it is open.
If a stock part is replaced then it is stock but opened to do it. The question should be is it stock! As per factory specs?
The oil pump gears were a open or not debate once. People saying there was no power gains. But if you rev more there is obviously more power.
The holdens valve springs were not replaced for nothing, same as the early BA springs.

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by Tucool

No you are dismissing the discussion because you don't agree with it ... every word that has been said has been to the point... and you keep bringing other parts of the car as an example G/box, good fuel, exhaust... this is not part of being unopened Motor and the poll was for people who don't want to debate .... I get the feeling your going to wield your veto here and that would be ashame

Unbelievable, the only shame is your sense of direction, Mark made a valid argument and you call it rubbish, god if that's not dismissive then suggesting that he would close the thread because of his position on this site, is.

Go away for 24 hours, you add no value to this discussion

[Quadcams]

Originally Posted by Tucool

I may have used to wrong term in saying "rubbish" it didn't occur to me to say to "I don't think so"
But as for the rest... I know Chris has summed this discussion perfectly,
I happen to fall into this bracket of unopened motors and will defend it's
principles to the end without prejudice.

Yes its black and white in my eyes as well Tucool, quiet simple really.

[LowEL2XR8]

Don't want to add fuel to an explosive situation but from what I can gather this debate can go hand in hand with its a stock engine or not stock.
I'm referring to engines that have had a component replaced but with a stock factory replacement part and not aftermarket.
If a valve spring breaks it needs to changed so the cover comes off (opened). Spring is replaced with stock item so is it still stock? Well to me yes but to others stock might mean as it left the factory with its ORIGINAL parts.