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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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11-02-2014, 10:46 PM | #1 | ||||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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An interesting opinion peice on where we are headed now with car manufacturing being shown the exit.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-1...-phase/5251418 Quote:
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__________________
Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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11-02-2014, 11:23 PM | #2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,710
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Its a disaster.
As far as I see, near everyone has a nothing job. If you service anything apart from something that can be exported you are a cost to the country. Including myself... If you are a building houses or buildings, if you work in health or are a cop, etc etc, they are nothing jobs that just service ourselves. It annoys me when Abbott says coles is going to ad 3500 jobs in Victoria, they are again not real jobs, just servicing ourselves. Cant believe whats happening. :-( |
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11-02-2014, 11:36 PM | #3 | ||
Brad
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 5,827
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They really did **** up.
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12-02-2014, 12:00 AM | #4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,252
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In a closed economy you export to your neighbor. Of course you need to manufacture things in a closed economy. You need to provide your own services and infrastructure and stuff. But it can work, but we are not a closed or inward looking economy. we are trying to exploit the big bad global economy and failing. JP |
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12-02-2014, 12:08 AM | #5 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 470
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Rest assured that we won't be servicing ourselves exclusively, but rather ourselves and all the tourists who will come to marvel at our beaches and national parks!
I also don't buy this whole "lets replace our manufacturing with big transport infrastructure projects". What's the point of new freeways and tunnels when there is less traffic on the road as less people have jobs to get to? |
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12-02-2014, 12:33 AM | #6 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,083
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For all intents and purposes, our car industry was also a self-service industry. Exports need to bring money into the country, not send it out. |
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12-02-2014, 12:33 AM | #7 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geelong
Posts: 1,730
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If the government wants out if manufacturing then that's fine. But they don't seem to have a Plan B. They've tossed out an entire industry but have nothing to replace it with. Apparently we're the food bowl of Asia but they're happy to let SPC fold. What's that being replaced with...?
I fully agree with their principal that companies should be able to fund themselves, but a the same time they need an environment that is sustainable and competitive on a global scale. We don't currently have that. The red and green tape we have in this country is a joke (our council considered requiring permits to play a radio in the workplace). This is going to sound red neck, but I strongly believe we employ far too many people behind desks in this country with nothing better to do all day than to think up new crap to make life harder. If half of them were sacked the ones left might actually have to work a little harder and things would work a little more in our favour. |
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12-02-2014, 12:37 AM | #8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,083
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There's a very good reason why so many foreign multinationals are buying into local agriculture. There's a buck to be made. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. Populations are growing, available land is reducing, at some point we'll be in an excellent position to profit. We poured $30bn into cars over the last decade, and for what? Imagine we had done the same for the agriculture sector. |
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12-02-2014, 12:43 AM | #9 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,083
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They did no such thing. We gave Holden $275mil in 2012. Holden promised to stay for another decade. Barely 18mths later and they broke that promise, no doubt because VF sales didn't meet expectations.
If we truly wanted a local industry, we'd have bought the local product. Governments at all levels for a number of years (not just the current LNP) can be thanked for not insisting on locally-sourced fleets. |
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12-02-2014, 01:44 AM | #10 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,876
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To put it further in perspective, the Government spent $17billion on the ABC over the same period of time. Last edited by Brazen; 12-02-2014 at 01:50 AM. |
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12-02-2014, 02:00 AM | #11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,083
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Quote:
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/au...dustry-2013-12 |
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12-02-2014, 07:29 AM | #12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb.
Posts: 4,475
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12-02-2014, 07:46 AM | #13 | ||
bitch lasagne
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sonova Beach
Posts: 15,110
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One thought that has been going through my head since the Toyota announcement has been about profit. Were they really losing money or were the books cooked to make it appear as though they were?
I have been involved with mediun sized companies that moved all production overseas with creative accounting. They were making consistent profits year in year out but someone in the managerial foodchain wanted more. So the beancounters began writing crap off, the net result of which is paper losses and enough fuel to pull the trigger on a local shutdown. Have such dodgy moves contributed to the demise of Australian manufacturing, hell yes. Have they contributed to the Australia Disease, they sure have. |
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12-02-2014, 08:12 AM | #14 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geelong
Posts: 1,730
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12-02-2014, 09:37 AM | #15 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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So let's get back to basics, for industry we need an abundance of cheap reliable clean fresh water, ultra cheap electricity and transportation. We need government to invest in water, road and power infrastructure. We also need a fair and equitable tax system and minimise red/green tape. The unions also need to readjust and reset their expectations as fewer and fewer people belong to unions. We need less lawyers, a lot less accedemics/greenies/social conscience warriors and we need to withdraw from a raft of international treaties which do not assist Australia in the slightest. The services industry is a mirage, so called local skills have easily been shifted to Bangalore and Madras. We need to be building stuff just like China is. Just a few of the things needed... |
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12-02-2014, 10:08 AM | #16 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,981
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Less greenies too? Should we not strive to minimize the negative impact we have on our habitance for the better of future generations? Is taking such action really as damaging to social wealth as portrayed, or is this tactical from those profiting from current means? Less social conscience as well? We see this with those profiting from the despair of the general populous, is individual greed a better solution than focusing on what would be best for the population in general? When Holden were negotiating a pay cut for the factory workers, what were the guys at the top earning? |
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12-02-2014, 10:10 AM | #17 | |||
BANNED
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,886
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Advocating an exponentially expansionist economic model that throws all environmental concerns out the window with an assumption that energy resources are infinite is unsustainable. Unfortunately that system is the root cause of the problem, especially the reliance on consumption. |
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12-02-2014, 10:15 AM | #18 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,252
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Long article but interesting reading with historic analysis and feasible futures. http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...yment-not-less JP |
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12-02-2014, 10:31 AM | #19 | ||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
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It will be a tough ride, but perhaps this is the trigger we need to return to building niche, high quality products.
Competing on a global scale clearly doesn't work, we will need to focus on REAL value adding, and sustainable SMALL businesses. |
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12-02-2014, 10:38 AM | #20 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Why am I not surprised by the responses and the self congratulations...
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12-02-2014, 10:41 AM | #21 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,252
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and an interesting article on why Agriculture wont save jobs but in fact contribute to more unemployment yet greater profits.
Automation, biological manipulation and synthetics and divorce of production from th eland, the environment and the end of the farmer http://www.converge.org.nz/pirm/nutech.htm JP |
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12-02-2014, 10:53 AM | #22 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,252
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I know that money makes the world go round but does continual economic growth just make the world go around faster, which as a physicist will tell you is bad for life! I subscribe to steady state economies where the land is intrinsically valued as an asset not as an economic input. I make no apologies for that. I wont subscribe to any idea that suggests our current economic model is better as I see inequality, social and environmental degradation and resource (food, money, freedom) scarcity rising. Issues I consider to the be basic tenant of an economic model as opposed to greed, satiation and unbridled growth. JP |
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12-02-2014, 11:06 AM | #23 | |||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
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I'd like to add this... Who decided that it was necessary to have less and less quality issues with products? Who decided that we need to make 10000 items per hour or it won't be enough to sustain the business? Same group both times.... shareholders. I'm an engineer so I have a built in desire for efficiency, but there comes a point when you need to step back and ask if it's really worth it. As you pointed out with every advancement in automation, comes the need for less people. The world population is growing, the need for workers is decreasing. How is this going to play out? We're heading towards a place where there just won't be jobs for people. What then? Healthcare, schools, homes. How will this work? Free houses supplied by the richest? free rent? free healthcare? free education? (what for? no job to get anyway) It really is a scary scenario to play out in your head. I think the Amish might have had the right idea all along. |
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12-02-2014, 11:09 AM | #24 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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12-02-2014, 11:14 AM | #25 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 470
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Interesting fact I read today that in the past 12 months the Victorian economy has seen the biggest deindustrialisation of any world economy bar North Korea!
Sydney is also now Australia's biggest manufacturing center, and that's even before the car industry shuts down. |
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12-02-2014, 11:22 AM | #26 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
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12-02-2014, 11:26 AM | #27 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,252
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Thats the point for traditional 'now' manufacturing you are right. We are heading for a time, through technological advances, pushed by a desire for more profits (had to add that dig) where the input of water, air, transport and power will be greatly reduced. Why farm pigs in the country when a synthetic protein can more profitably be created in an automated laboratory next door with no input other than knowledge. The new developing business models are driving out the use or significant reliance on those inputs, for which they have little control over cost to maximise profits or the balance sheet.
By the middle to later half of this century I dont believe we will recognise our productive world. Some of us will be dead so who cares, but for those who do care about the future generations it is worrying. This does not make us bad people or fools or any of those other negative words attached to us. It makes us different and as equal memebers of society we have a voice. JP |
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12-02-2014, 11:37 AM | #28 | |||
^^^^^^^^
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: online - duh
Posts: 9,642
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Where do you think that growth comes from? It's funded at least in part through investing in the stockmarket. You're probably one of those shareholders too, even if you didn't realise it. I'm an engineer too and I really don't like where this country is headed regards manufacturing and think it's a really short sited move. But I guess that's what you get when you focus on the next profit/loss statement or just want to win the next popularity contest we call politics in this country.
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. Last edited by Raptor; 12-02-2014 at 11:42 AM. |
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12-02-2014, 11:41 AM | #29 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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To me it is just plain wrong to sacrifice manufacturing, there will always be a need for this type of work, along with ditch diggers, truckys, process workers, welders ,steel workers, fitters, skilled and non skilled labor alike.
Even if we didn't have a need for them it is worth having these type of industries even if we have to pay a bit out of the pocket for it(although it is probably too late now. I sound like a broken record but there will always be people that leave school that are not suited to being a rocket scientist, or a chemist, or etc,etc, and it is ten times better to to have people working spending money , paying taxes, feeling good about themselves adding value to the community and the economy. have look at the ailments in society already, do we need more people on the dole, do we need more people not paying taxes? do we need more people in the poor house not spending money? and not forgetting a biggy, what commonly comes from people in poverty is crime,.................... also there is the loss of skills in the industry, some old timers that have a life time of valuable skills (some of which will be lost forever)close to retirement will finish up and never work again. A lot of jobs have already disappeared and continue to disappear due to automation and here we are killing off a big section of valuable assets for a few dollars. I don't directly blame the current govco for this, this has been happening for years, our pollies sacrificed this industry decades ago among others, and consecutive party's continued on with the party idealistic direction, some of which stemmed from becoming UN lackeys giving other 3rd world countries 30% of our manufacturing ( and it is documented if you research it), and no one has lifted a finger to change direction . despite certain politicians hypocritically now playing the blame game and crying crocodile tears , these very people and their party played a very big part in destroying what we have already lost over the years and what is yet to come, all parties played a part , and we let them ! The OP article has merit imo. |
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12-02-2014, 11:47 AM | #30 | |||
Petro-sexual
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,527
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I need to have some sort of security blanket to feel somewhat safe in this world and for the future. Nevertheless, the constant drive for growth is an ideological concept, when coupled with multiple business plans, can only result in racing to the bottom. |
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