synthetic oils

[maddo1]

Is there really any advantage to running synthetic oil in my fg engine over mineral oils.. I am a mechanic but still confused!!

[IceValk85]

synthetic oils are more resistant to heat and breaking down of the base components, offering better protection to modern engines.

Im NOT a mechanic and wouldn't have anything OTHER than full synth in any of my engines.

been a fan of Nulon 10-30 and 5-30 full synth for years.

Ice

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by maddo1

Is there really any advantage to running synthetic oil in my fg engine over mineral oils.. I am a mechanic but still confused!!

Great and timely thread as far as I'm concerned.
Synthetic Oil manufacturers are certainly not shy of making claims for their full synthetic formulations but I note that:

1. There are 3 formulations of oil that Castrol make that meet the 5W-20 spec for the new 5.0 Supercharged motor. Two full synthetic and 1 semi synthetic. FPV chose the semi synthetic formulation.

2. Mercedes-benz have partnered up with Mobil 1 for years and used their full synthetic Mobil 1 oils in their engines, (Mobil 1 is perhaps the oldest full synthetic manufacturer ?), but have very recently shifted to making their own formulation, (probably a deal with one of the main oil manufacturers, rebranded with M Benz own label) and are now using semi synthetic in their cars.

Honestly...If the oldest car manufactuer in the world has changed to semi synthetics, just maybe the full syntheitc formulations arn't all they're cracked up to be, makes you think doesn't it ?

All I have to back up this assertion is what these manufacturers are doing and some far less than stellar used oil samples for Mobil 1 i've seen on www.bobistheoilguy.com, arguably the world's foremost website for oil.
My 2 cents.

[prydey]

rodge - it could also just be a cost issue. maybe the semi synthetics are getting the job done for less cost.

the way i look at it is for a standard engine, all oils will do the job but the working life of the oil will be different, with mineral shortest and full synthetic longest.

with full synthetic, i have no problem running my car to factory intervals (12 month/15000km) but would probably cut that by at least 60-70% for a mineral (3-4months/5000km). semi synth somewhere in the middle.

oils is one of those topics where you will never have everyone agreeing. all i do is choose an oil i am happy with (i've used shell helix ultra for over 10years) and stick with it. there are added benefits to continual use of a product.

as long as the oil meets or exceeds manufacturer spec, it will probably do the job on a standard, unmodified engine.

[Rodge]

Prydey, you've probably got a valid point and knowing M Benz they'll be making one heck of a mark-up on their branded M Benz semi-synthetic.

That said some of the AMG Benz's are making huge horsepower and they're recommending the same semi-synthetic's for those too.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Prydey, you've probably got a valid point and knowing M Benz they'll be making one heck of a mark-up on their branded M Benz semi-synthetic.

That said some of the AMG Benz's are making huge horsepower and they're recommending the same semi-synthetic's for those too.

i wonder if the manufacturers have changed the service intervals to make them shorter again. there was a school of thought that the service intervals were extended simply so that the running costs over a standard lease/fleet period were lower.

[maddo1]

Cheers for all the replies I was tossing up between shell and Mobil I haven't heard much about nulon.

[TC200six]

I would go as far to say that synthetic oils are better. As well as the fact that they hold up better under extreme temperature than mineral oils do, they clean out old oil sludge deposits.

I recently used synthetic oil in my Datsun L20B motor after using 20W-50 mineral oil and what I noticed was the temperature gauge stays lower when constantly driving meaning there's less friction.

[jpd80]

Wikipedia has a great article on synthetic oils and also mentions semi synthetic oils...LINK

and from the article advantages and disadvantages of synthetic oil:

Advantages

The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:[citation needed]

Measurably better low- and high-temperature viscosity performance at service temperature extremes
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown, and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication during extreme cold weather starts
Longer engine life
Superior protection against "ash" and other deposit formation in engine hot spots (in particular in turbochargers and superchargers) for less oil burnoff and reduced chances of damaging oil passageway clogging.
Increased horsepower and torque due to less initial drag on engine

Disadvantages

The disadvantages of synthetic motor oils include:

Potential decomposition problems in certain chemical environments (predominantly in industrial use.)
Potential stress cracking of plastic components made of polyoxymethylene (POM) in the presence of polyalphaolefin (PAO).
In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two-year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular mineral oil. In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high-speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service - stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures." [17]
Synthetic oils are not recommended in automotive rotary engines.

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by maddo1

Cheers for all the replies I was tossing up between shell and Mobil I haven't heard much about nulon.

When it comes to brands, I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. Whenever oil debates get brought up on forums, you constantly get users saying "I use this brand, avoid anything else", "don't use that brand, use another" etc. As long as it a big brand I don't think it matters, but I have read a lot of positive feedback about Nulon reducing tappet noises though.

[jpd80]

Contamination of the oil through normal running is a bigger issue then the oil itself,
remember that only bypass oil is filtered and once it begins to clog, the oil system bypasses it.

Regular oil changes are the key, when i used to run my EBII back in the early 1990s,
I found the fuel economy dropped off by about 1 l/100 km after around 8,000 km
but once I replaced the oil and filter, back it came and running sweet as a nut.

[XAGSV8]

Anybody use synthetic oils in their classic cars?

[saam]

Most mechanics i have asked have said not to bother with synthetic oils in older cars

[davids_gxl]

been using nulon synthetic oil in my au for many years,it has 501000 on it,no rebuilds.also using 15w50 on a clevo 302.

[TC200six]

I would like to see it proven whether there's any consequences if you use synthetic oil in an old engine. It's probably true that there's no point bothering with synthetic oils in old engines, but if it's believed to have negative affects, what are they?

I'm assuming the myth is that it might react with an obsolete gasket/seal material that might still be present in old engines or something...?

[Mainlube]

Originally Posted by TC200six

I would like to see it proven whether there's any consequences if you use synthetic oil in an old engine. It's probably true that there's no point bothering with synthetic oils in old engines, but if it's believed to have negative affects, what are they?

I'm assuming the myth is that it might react with an obsolete gasket/seal material that might still be present in old engines or something...?

The only down side is money

No reactions.

All other changes are benefits, cleaning better etc

Cheers

[FreddyDUZ747]

There seems to be a certain amount of confusion about who makes the best motor oil. A lot of emphasis today is put on synthetic oils. It reminds me of the 70's when all the professional ball teams had to have astro turf. Now everyone is realizing the 'synthetic' grass leaves a lot to be desired and the new stadiums are not using it. And remember Polyester double knit 'Leisure' suits? Comparably, as synthetic oils are becoming more widely used its shortcomings are becoming more pronounced. Engine builders are expressing problems with detonation due to poor wiping of synthetic oils coupled with the fact that synthetic oil does not burn as easily as do petroleum oils. As the piston returns on compression stoke, the oil that didn't wipe completely off is forced on top of the piston and since it doesn't burn, it will pile up on the top of the piston and up compression until you get detonation. Another problem expressed is leaking due to; the reaction of synthetic base stocks with gaskets and seals, and because of the very nature of the thin viscosity. synthetic oil base stock contains no solvent quality therefore resulting in a greater problem in carbon and sludge builds up. Cylinder scuffing piston scuffing are serious problems associated with the thin viscosity of synthetic.

Competition racing requires getting the most horsepower out of an engine as possible. This must be tempered with ability of a lubricant to protect the engine. Most people do not have unlimited funds to gain the very max in HP at the sacrifice of the engine. It's time for engine oil that gives the HP gains synthetic oils do and at the same time protect the engine even better than the heavy petroleum oils used for many years.

Using a top quality premium solvent neutral base stock with an additive package that incorporates some synthetic additive packages along with newest technology VI improvers and friction modifiers the ability to manufacture a truly custom blend oil that is far superior to any petroleum and meets and exceeds HP gains with synthetic oils is a reality. This is the need ULX110 has addressed.

ULX110 is a highly refined emerald green crankcase oil, engineered from top quality solvent neutral base stocks, and the very best nonshear viscosity index improvers, along with three performance additives, ULX110 also contains 2 specialty additives, one a completely oil soluble friction reducer with anti-wear and extreme pressure properties, and a unique viscosity stabilizer and acid neutralizer ingredient.

From ULX110 site.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by TC200six

I would like to see it proven whether there's any consequences if you use synthetic oil in an old engine. It's probably true that there's no point bothering with synthetic oils in old engines, but if it's believed to have negative affects, what are they?

I'm assuming the myth is that it might react with an obsolete gasket/seal material that might still be present in old engines or something...?

Synthetic oils can react with certain older types of plastic components, but I think most manufacturers
have moved away from them years ago as synth and blended synth has been out for decades.

[Sideways]

I have been told by my mechanic that synthetic oils in older engines can have a habit of seeping through the sump gasket as it is alot thinner but I don't know how true this is because I have only used mineral oils in my panelvan and never had this issue.

[Ducati888]

My old Ducati 900SS commuter used to leak from the seals when I used synthetic oil. I switched to a heavier grade Penrite mineral oil and it stopped leaking. I only use synthetic in my race engines though.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by FreddyDUZ747

There seems to be a certain amount of confusion about who makes the best motor oil. A lot of emphasis today is put on synthetic oils. It reminds me of the 70's when all the professional ball teams had to have astro turf. Now everyone is realizing the 'synthetic' grass leaves a lot to be desired and the new stadiums are not using it. And remember Polyester double knit 'Leisure' suits? Comparably, as synthetic oils are becoming more widely used its shortcomings are becoming more pronounced. Engine builders are expressing problems with detonation due to poor wiping of synthetic oils coupled with the fact that synthetic oil does not burn as easily as do petroleum oils. As the piston returns on compression stoke, the oil that didn't wipe completely off is forced on top of the piston and since it doesn't burn, it will pile up on the top of the piston and up compression until you get detonation. Another problem expressed is leaking due to; the reaction of synthetic base stocks with gaskets and seals, and because of the very nature of the thin viscosity. synthetic oil base stock contains no solvent quality therefore resulting in a greater problem in carbon and sludge builds up. Cylinder scuffing piston scuffing are serious problems associated with the thin viscosity of synthetic.

Competition racing requires getting the most horsepower out of an engine as possible. This must be tempered with ability of a lubricant to protect the engine. Most people do not have unlimited funds to gain the very max in HP at the sacrifice of the engine. It's time for engine oil that gives the HP gains synthetic oils do and at the same time protect the engine even better than the heavy petroleum oils used for many years.

Using a top quality premium solvent neutral base stock with an additive package that incorporates some synthetic additive packages along with newest technology VI improvers and friction modifiers the ability to manufacture a truly custom blend oil that is far superior to any petroleum and meets and exceeds HP gains with synthetic oils is a reality. This is the need ULX110 has addressed.

ULX110 is a highly refined emerald green crankcase oil, engineered from top quality solvent neutral base stocks, and the very best nonshear viscosity index improvers, along with three performance additives, ULX110 also contains 2 specialty additives, one a completely oil soluble friction reducer with anti-wear and extreme pressure properties, and a unique viscosity stabilizer and acid neutralizer ingredient.

From ULX110 site.

sounds a lot like marketing to me.

[my_gxl]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

My old Ducati 900SS commuter used to leak from the seals when I used synthetic oil. I switched to a heavier grade Penrite mineral oil and it stopped leaking. I only use synthetic in my race engines though.

The point there is you switched to a heavier grade oil.

[FreddyDUZ747]

Originally Posted by prydey

sounds a lot like marketing to me.

Exactly...what has made you choose synthetic based oils Prydey,myself choosing a quallity mineral oil has been from real time results/reccomendation from tuner and not this statemant from ULX.

[maddo1]

Well there's a heap of interesting discussion bout oil when all I really wanted to know if benefits in using synthetic on my fg ute would be worth the extra $60 for oil.

[Franco Cozzo]

I use full synthetic oil in my new cars, but the Falcon gets Nulon 15W-40 mineral haha, no point putting expensive oil in an older car I don't know the history of.

[TMC]

I intend to keep my Territory forever. I do my services myself. At the moment my engine doesn't burn a drop of oil in 10000km. (I slightly overfilled it by about a mm on the dipstick and after 10000km there is still a mm overfilled on the dipstick). The way I look at it, the extra stability of a fully synthetic oil which is sourced from class 4 and up components will enable the motor to continue operating well for longer than a straight mineral oil. Mineral oils under heavy load will start to break down easier than a fully synthetic oil.

I'm using Penrite racing 5w-30 no shear in my Territory which I buy in a 20L drum. So far on the open road I'm convinced that it is giving me an improvement of a L/100km over the 10W-40 Everyday Penrite synthetic I was using before which was cheaper. It's a very runny oil, but the no shear properties give it that thin low friction ability without a metal on metal event occuring. I wouldn't use the 5W-30 on anything before the BA engine though as the clearances are a bit bigger on the AU and back. I wouldn't have any issue using a fully synthetic oil of correct viscosity in an old motor though.

[Olbucko]

I have been using synthetic oil, mainly Mobile 1, for the last 15 years and about a million km, apart from running them in for the first 5,000 km with mineral oil.

The first was an XE Falcon which I rebuilt and, ran to 330,000 Km before the body rusted away. The motor had never been touched apart from replacing the spark plugs and and the rear crankshaft packing, It still ran like new and idled without any fumes from the rocker cover. I sold the motor to a mechanic to rebuild, but when he pulled it down no work was needed, even the rings and piston grooves were still OK. almost no lip on the bores.

The second is an 03 Subaru Forester, now with 400,000 km on the clock. Motor has never been touched apart from normal serviceing, uses about 2 litres of oil between changes, (12,500 km), Motor is still running as smoothly as the day we bought it.

My 07 SY Territory has now covered 180,000 km, motor is still good as new, goes 15,000 between oil changes, oil consumption is no more than a few hundred ml.

I also started using synthetic in my XM Falcon about ten years ago without any problems. As soon as I started using it all the lifter noise stopped.

I dont think there is any advantage in using synthetic oil if you are going only keep your car for two or three years but if you plan to do big mileages and keep your car for a long time it's worth it.

If you live in a cold climate synthetic oil has the advantage that it does not thicken when it gets cold. Some years ago I put samples of synthetic oil and mineral oil and cooled it down to about -15C. The mineral oil had become thick and hard like refrigerated honey and would not pour, the synthetic oil had not thickened at all. Not only is there far less wear when the motor is cold but it will be easier to start

[BA-XT]

Shell Helix HX7 10w-40 here.

However I think the oil chosen isn't of too much consequence for an everyday driver. At the end of the day the body and all the other components will wear out while you'll have a great engine with no body! It's pretty safe to say that the majority of people keep their cars for less than 10 years or 200,000 anyway before up grading. Personally I change my oil every 4 months or 5,000km. Doesn't matter if it's a diesel or petrol. I think the Helix is a semi-synthetic. Has very good cleaning properties. Comes out brown.

[ivorya]

With manufacturer's changing to thinner oils, does this influence what people will put in their vehicle?
I mean a FG 6 cyl recommends 5-30W oil, s-v8 requires 5-20W oils - would it be bad for eg to put a 5-40W in the 6 or 10-40W?
What would be the downside to increaseing the last value? There is a positive it that these oils are cheaper, but is there any significant issues that could occur?
BTW, i've been running Nulon 5-30W in my FG XR6 since 20K, and i find it a great oil.

[Rodge]

^^MBenz inadvertantly put 0W-40 Mobil 1 in my Merc, should have had Mobil 1 5W-30 ESP Oil, (low saps). Fuel consumption increased by about 0.5L/100 km and it stuffed the diesel particulate filter but that's another story...

I'd say no harm from a 5 or 10W-40 semi synthetic like Castrol Magnatec in a NA Inline 6 engine but you'd probably see a similar fuel consumption increase which would probably more than negate any savings in the oil's initial cost.