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04-04-2008, 07:49 AM | #1 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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Taken from news.com.au
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Honestly, they creat the problem by driving up costs of production in Aus, then for brownie points they decide to duck and run so some idiot can pay a couple of grand less on an import. When you add the fact that no other countries have abandoned their own market protection; abandoning ours seems incredibly stupid especially when it is such a small percentage in contrast to others. It would also see thousands of manufacturers go bust and then what do we do? Hope that China will never increase its prices? Now I know why Kevin was never circumcised; there's no end to the pr!ck.
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04-04-2008, 08:17 AM | #2 | |||
I still have both eyes
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04-04-2008, 08:29 AM | #3 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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In this instance though I am referring to countries with an auto manufacturing industry, but it does apply to all things. How did your manufacturing sector fare after the changes?
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04-04-2008, 08:41 AM | #4 | ||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Is there any data showing other countries vehicle tariffs?
I have done a lot of web searching on DFAT and can't find anything. I am not a fan of governments having to support a manufactruer if they are not putting in any effort to shift with the market. Saying that I detest people who criticise the Australian manufactruers as being leeching from the Australian taxpayer without highlighting the fact that other makers in other countries like Germany and Japan do they same thing. |
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04-04-2008, 08:45 AM | #5 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 575
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it costs $7.7b per year just to let companies build cars here and take the profits overseas? thats insane.
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04-04-2008, 10:05 AM | #6 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,412
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Do the powers to be really believe that is they reduced tariffs,thus making the items cheaper to import that it would make the items cheaper.
They have to be kidding themselves,all they would do is keep the prices the same and make a bigger profit. Therefore saving the general purchaser nothing. It happened when they reduced them before,so why not again. But then again the upside could be that if they did lift the tariffs, Ford and Holden would go to Japan to get their cars built and we would end up with a better made and more reliable car in the long run. Just a thought, as we all know that the Japanese DO take more pride in the work that they do. |
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04-04-2008, 10:10 AM | #7 | ||
1999 Ford Fairmont Ghia
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NSW
Posts: 1,162
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I wonder if Ford, Holden, Toyota and all their suppliers shut local manufacturing what the cost of that would be??
100,000+ people on the dole anybody............... Better hope they start mining in Adelaide or Melbourne............. |
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04-04-2008, 10:35 AM | #8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NSW
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The cost to us would be even more than Lost Jobs as we base our Economy on what? Tourism, Natural Resources, Agriculture & Manufacturing. Well Resources will run out one day, Climate will change enough to make Agriculture redundant, Tourism will go up & Down as it does already & then we are left with Manufacturing which if we let the Asians do all of it for us will go as well. Yeah so we get maybe cheaper vehicles, woo hoo as the cost of this to our great Country is great! Surely we do not all just look at our own lives & can see the Bigger Picture for Our Wonderful Country We need to Make MORE & import LESS & if a vehicle cost each of us 20% more at least we can be Happy WE Made it! Oh the other Countries will be the ones who end up well of over time & we will end up third world if we import everything & Make nothing. Once our Resources run out. Come on Aussies think about it. |
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04-04-2008, 10:41 AM | #9 | |||
Automotive Designer
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04-04-2008, 11:15 AM | #10 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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Thanks for that mate, as you've highlighted exactly the trend I fear we would follow on this should the "Razor Gang" try to save a little money in the interem. Hopefully someone will see the light and realise that giving open access to our markets for the rest of the world is like dropping your pants and grabbing your ankles at a mardi gras parade.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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04-04-2008, 11:35 AM | #11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: Northern Sydney
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Of course, the argument for dropping tariffs is that we should, in a macroeconomic sense, as a nation only concentrate on what we are efficient and good at on a global scale, like mining and services, rather than spending billions on supporting what will eventually become an economically unviable industry.
Likewise, you could argue that the slow reduction of tariffs to date in the Automotive industry has forced our manufacturers to improve quality, technology and safety as compared to what we were manufacturing in the early 80s. And likewise, lowering tariffs on importing vehicles will, in kind, result in a reduction on tariffs that our efficient exports suffer in other countries. |
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04-04-2008, 11:51 AM | #12 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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The problem is not the intention we have here, but that of other countries' governments and their unwillingness to do so. Take China and our steel. China sells more crap to us than per annum than we could hope to sell to them in a lifetime yet they don't want to pay market prices, and have blocked the lucrative immediate sales of steel instead of long term contracts. This is in a sense manipulation, as they point blank refuse. If we were to apply the same logic of refusal of their goods, it would become an international outrage. No, I think we need tarriffs as long as the other countries refuse to play ball, and the devastation to our markets and jobs far outweighs saving 2 grand on a foreign car. If they do abolish them it would be to our extreme detriment in the long term. The electorate would rightly be as mad as a queer with lockjaw at a Kylie concert.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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04-04-2008, 12:03 PM | #13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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04-04-2008, 12:44 PM | #14 | |||
Force Fed Fords
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Ha ha ha.
I heard them both over 13 hours on a recent flight, laughed so hard I vowed to use them again. Now I won't mention anything about uniforms or a captain; as that just may compound the situation more.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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04-04-2008, 01:23 PM | #15 | |||
1999 Ford Fairmont Ghia
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The electroate will simply think "oh goody I can save 2 grand on my Corolla enough to buy a plasma television" without thinking of the long term devastation this causes to the economy. Heres an intersting extract on the matter: Some free trade economists have recently begun to express their own doubts concerning the concept and practice of free trade. Alan S. Blinder, for example, a professor of economics at Princeton University, and former Federal Reserve Board vice chairman and advisor to Democratic presidential candidates, had previously argued, along with most economists, that free trade enriches the U.S. and its trading partners. However, he now says new communication technology will put 30-40 million American jobs at risk in 10-20 years. Blinder has not completely rejected free trade or Ricardo's ideas about comparative advantage, but he advocates greater protection for displaced workers and an improved education system. Blinder opposed steel, aluminum and farming export subsidies and protection, and pushed for the passage of NAFTA, though he did not agree that it would create jobs in the US. Trade changes types of jobs, not the number, he said. Technology allowed Indians in call centers to do the work of Americans at lower wages. "Tens of millions of additional American workers will start to experience an element of job insecurity that has heretofore been reserved for manufacturing workers," said Blinder. Democrats and Republicans are becoming skeptical. The debate is, "Should government encourage forces of globalization or try to restrain them?" Latin America performed poorly since tariff cuts in 1980s and 1990s, compared to protectionist China and Southeast Asia. Paul Samuelson, in his 2004 essay[16], condemned "economists' over-simple complacencies about globalization" and said that workers don't always win. Lawrence Summers, advocate for trade expansion as Clinton Treasury Secretary, said retraining is "pretty thin gruel" to the middle class. Ralph Gomory, former IBM chief scientist, says the rise of China and India could make the U.S. lose important industries. Harvard economist Dani Rodrik says trade barriers should help poor nations build domestic industries and give rich nations time to retrain workers. But Jagdish N. Bhagwati says jobs will grow in medicine, law and accounting. Blinder has created a list of "highly offshorable" jobs that could be lost in the next 20 years, which claims that 1,815,340 bookkeeping, accounting and auditing jobs could be lost. [17] |
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04-04-2008, 03:00 PM | #16 | ||
Old enough to know better
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
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[QUOTE=ltd]Taken from news.com.au
If they don't want to subsidise our industries, then they shouldn't make employment and other inputs so expensive that we uncompetitive internationally. Honestly, they create the problem by driving up costs of production in Aus, [QUOTE] The lack of logic in some of this thread is frightening. Make employment less expensive? What, like cutting wages perhaps!!!! Driving up the cost of production? Cars and trucks are an input in the cost of production That's the whole point. We cost every Australian (you and me) and every Australian business $9.1 billion a year. If that money was spent in the economy, or used to reduce the cost of business inputs, how many jobs do you think that would create?? Thousands and thousands more than we'd lose The trouble is, the jobs created by this are spread right throughout the economy, and therefore not as obvious as the direct jobs lost. If tariffs are that good for us, why don't we double them? Or triple them? Think that would create more jobs? Or would it take money out of the pocket of every taxpayer (you and me), so we can't spend it on other items, or increase the costs for business (who buy the majority of cars) which just drives the economy smaller and smaller, meaning less and less jobs. Who here wants car tariffs to go to 50%??? Because the arguments here would suggest we'd all be rolling in clover if we did. Rubbish
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Last edited by melbzetec; 04-04-2008 at 03:15 PM. |
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04-04-2008, 03:14 PM | #17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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i think australia's industries need to think of newer and better ways of how to get australian money into their own pockets instead of oversea's pockets as thats where most of it is goin
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04-04-2008, 04:50 PM | #18 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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[QUOTE=melbzetec][QUOTE=ltd]Taken from news.com.au
If they don't want to subsidise our industries, then they shouldn't make employment and other inputs so expensive that we uncompetitive internationally. Honestly, they create the problem by driving up costs of production in Aus, Quote:
Firstly, you seem to be the only one who has missed the point of employment being expensive. I'm not talking about an input cost such as an extra 2 grand on a car as that makes up a tiny percentage of the overall cost to the business. I'm talking about our wage comparison internationally. What this means is, it's cheaper to manufacture in China or India than here as there wages are much lower; as well as their standard of living. Now, to someone who may not see the impost here that means that we often cannot buy the material used in production for the same or less than the landed cost from China. Why is this bad? Because should China increase their standard of living and demand more money for the same product then the saleable product landed in Australia would increase in price too. Add to that, the fact that our only bargaining chip of being able to produce our own goods would be lost meaning collectively we would be over a barrel. Companies like Ford and GM would not again set up companies should the local branches fail financially, and we would not have a car industry. This industry mind you, employs thousands upon thousands who contribute to the economy through taxation, superannuation and not drawing on the public purse through welfare. Not just those directly employed, but thousands of components manufacturers too. This is a far greater outcome than telling them all to find new jobs because a little earwax eating muppet wants to have a better looking budget. Secondly, as for increasing tarriffs, we would not increase them as then nations such as China encountering a newer barrier to trade would most likeley reciprocate and make it difficult for us to do trade considering we have imposed trade restrictions upon them. My point here is, that the Chinese currently accept our tarriff level and reducing it will be well received by them however weak political will won't allow for us to increase it back to todays levels again without sanctions. No PM now or ever would do something that unpopular in making our goods more expensive here, and harder to export from China or India etc. The fact remains that people have accepted the price of general goods, without it being an issue this has been brought to the fore for no reason other than to have a good May budget. Finally, there are over 1 million people working in manufacturing in this country; people not skilled enough to get an IT job or an accounting job, what will they do in the short term whilst retraining? They'll become a burden on the welfare system which would increase government costs exponentially which would require more taxation and therefore less money for those not working in non manufacturing industries. But don't worry, because the unemployed and those paying higher taxes will be able to save 2 grand on a new car.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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04-04-2008, 05:08 PM | #19 | ||
Nikon
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Australia has one of the Worlds lowest tarriffs
Just look at China 40% ,and Singapore 150% just to name 2.(quoted from ABC Radio) Who is kiddin who? The rest of the world laughing at us! Im all in favor of competition but this is Ludicrous cheers |
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04-04-2008, 06:06 PM | #20 | ||
Regular Member
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I think theres a bit of craziness here....
If the numbers are the way I read them - we are paying many times more in subsidies than the economy gets back. Thats the benefit of direct and indirect jobs and businesses. The only way this could be is due to inefficiencies, off shore profit taking and the like.. So as a tax payer do you feel happy paying for $x thousand dollars each year to subsidise a holden, ford, or toyota you don't even own? Lower tarrifs mean increased competition - the evidence has been seen over the past years of reduction for benefit. The only problem is the species is still too protected for its own good. |
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04-04-2008, 06:31 PM | #21 | |||
Regular Member
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Those saying but its free trade and good for all, umm the US, 'the beacon of freedom, and the land of the free' has a 25% tariff on commercial vehicles and trucks.
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This is something we should be doing with China/Korea/Japan |
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04-04-2008, 07:03 PM | #22 | |||
1999 Ford Fairmont Ghia
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Location: NSW
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It's very easy to say "there is a mining boom" but there isn't a mining boom on the east coast! Many of these people dropped out in year 9 and 10 and have no formal qualifications. Who is going to employ them and are they are going to earn the same amount. As the manufacturing sector dies the manufacturing jobs are replaced by lower paying and often casual jobs in the Services Sector. This has happened in the United States and Spain for example. The U.S. was lucky enough to have a computer/software boom in the 90's and have a viable defence industry but what about Australia?? Are we to become a nation of checkout operators and kitchenhands? |
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04-04-2008, 09:11 PM | #23 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
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We can't be a nation of "I'm all right, screw the other guy" people, it is a dangerous mindset and serves only to undermine those espousing a blase attitude. We as a nation need to keep what industries we have, and we need to nurture and protect those willing and able to work. Not punish them for some intelligentsia based ideal of a new utopia. What a ****. When the world gets rid of their penalties, we'll can get rid of ours but not a moment before.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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05-04-2008, 02:36 AM | #24 | ||
Graphic Artist
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Perth
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And if you look to your left you will see our iconic Australian car, the 2011 Camry. Just like yours at home. And if you look to your right you will see the depressed Aussie blokes. dont make eye contact, Their a bit sore that their government stole everything they loved from them and handed it to you on a platter.
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For crimes against aesthetics in automotive culture, I sentence you to a life of commodore. |
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05-04-2008, 03:37 AM | #25 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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i cant help thinking that down the track when these country`s that pay there workers 2$ an hour have bought their living standards up to ours and surpassed it at the expense of our manufacturing industry, why should we support their manufacturing at the expense of ours, if it cost`s 9 billion to support manufacturing BIG DEAL, bugger me were thinkin of spending 18 billion on some freeways, 9 billion is peanuts imo, why do we need 32 different models for a population of 21 million?.
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05-04-2008, 11:53 AM | #26 | ||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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I read an article in the Age recently about China, and how wages are starting to get forced up due to the massive expansion making labour harder to find, thats right, a country of a billion people is having a hard time trying to find labour, and due to the competition to find people companies are forcing the wages up to attract them. It went on to say that in the long run if wages keep getting pushed up then its only a matter of time before it no longer becomes competitive to move operations to China. And now since China is starting to introduce pollution laws its driving the costs up even further as they can no longer just dump their waste into the local river or emissions into the sky, they need expensive pollution treatment equipment. They then reckoned India will probably be the next hot spot.
Probably a bit off topic but its a counterpoint to people who assume that Ford and Holden will probably just move production to China. Question. If a purchuser has to pay a tariff of 10% on an imported vehicle, where does the money go, to the Government or what? |
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05-04-2008, 12:01 PM | #27 | |||
I miss my wheelbarrow
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Location: Bluestreak Performance
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I just find it laughable. Daniel |
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05-04-2008, 12:43 PM | #28 | |||
1999 Ford Fairmont Ghia
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NSW
Posts: 1,162
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Spain used to import cheap goods from Britain. Britain used to import cheap goods from Germany. Japan used to build cheap cars and bikes before they drove their wages up. Remember how we used to make fun of Korea for making cheap junk??? Well Koreas GDP per capita is $25,000 compared to $30,000 in Australia and $23,000 in New Zealand and Korea has economic growth that averages 5%+. The difference is you go to Korea and try and buy a car that is not a Hyundai or Kia. They are building ships, cars and plasma screen televisions in Korea and we are building strip mines and shopping centres in Australia. And do you know what the scariest thing is. A manufacturing worker in Korea makes around the same as a manufacturing worker in Australia. When your grandchildren are working in sweatshops making shoes for Korean consumers you will be able to tell them about the time when Australias economy was important....... |
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05-04-2008, 12:49 PM | #29 | ||
Extreme Machine
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 610
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Hi all
let me say this the BG MK1, MK2, MK3, will be the last falcon made down under, from then on, all larger saloon cars will come from the States. cheers |
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05-04-2008, 02:06 PM | #30 | |||
Peter Car
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Location: geelong
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