The real GTS-R for Melborne

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Jeezus! grow up dude!

Again, another country heard from.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by tallica1

Holden don't need to design a newer and better engine, the current pushrod's still put out more power than the Fords Aus V8 engines, are lighter, rev higher and faster, and have a more more usuable powerband than the 5.4Litre BOSS engine. Not to mention, the pushrod has less things that can go wrong in the 'technical' Ford V8.

Sh!t...imagine if GM designed a 'technical' V8 engine like the Ford V8...poor Ford buggars wouldn't stand a chance at all. :

Here's a quote from a Wheels mag article in the comparo between the FPV Typhoon and HSV R8 that you guys might like to cuss about...

"Meantime, over in the blue camp, FPV’s current sharpest tool is the straight-sixpowered F6 Typhoon. What about the V8- powered GT-P? Sorry, but that 5.4-litre engine lacks low-down torque, doesn’t rev fast or high, and offers a usable power band of just 2500rpm. In short, the simple but effective HSV pushrod V8 would, and has, knocked the GT-P out of the park."

You sound like another Steffo wheels reader.

[tallica1]

Originally Posted by TE50 056

You sound like another Steffo wheels reader.

Yep that's cause I am! I read all sorts of reviews though...not just one mag/article. Although across the range, all say the same thing about the ol' BOSS V8. It does sound quite nice which is a positive I hear a lot of.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by TE50 056

You sound like another Steffo wheels reader.

And you sound like... oh wait, I better not say what you sound like! :

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by tallica1

Yep that's cause I am! I read all sorts of reviews though...not just one mag/article. Although across the range, all say the same thing about the ol' BOSS V8. It does sound quite nice which is a positive I hear a lot of.

I wouldn't say they all say the same thing. In fact the same magazine will often contradict itself.

When the FPV GT was forst released Wheels absolutely raved about it. I have the review and they talk about "the insant bucketloads of torque" and the "free revving nature" as well as it's "nimble handling" and "blistering speed".

Now 5 years later apparently Wheels considers the FPV GT an understeering pig with an embarassing lack of torque and pace.

I think you will find that the biggest gremlin with the BOSS motor is how new it is. While the Gen3/4's inherent piston slap loosens up the engine nicely the BOSS motor needs quite a few k's on the clock before the engine is i it's sweet spot.

Low kay versions of the BOSS are mid 14 second quarter mile runners but versions with higher kilometres in magazine tests have run 13's and in some cases on dyno tests have churned out 300kw+

Don't discount a BOSS just because one with 10,000 kays has trouble dipping into 13's. A few more kays and she will be sweet. I'd rather have a big heavy BOSS than a piston slapping Gen4

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by tallica1

Yep that's cause I am! I read all sorts of reviews though...not just one mag/article. Although across the range, all say the same thing about the ol' BOSS V8. It does sound quite nice which is a positive I hear a lot of.

Also may I suggest drive one if you havnt already. You would be supprised I believe. Whilst not as strong at low revs as the GenIV they pull very hard at higher revs. And thats basing on an engine thats more than 5 years old with no real upgrades. Hopefully with the upgrades to the FG, it will pull harder from the get go, and with the upped rev limit to 6500rpm it should atleast be a match for the LS2 and hopefully even LS3 when it arrives. (Just speculating as no one has driven or tested either of them yet).

[ST]

Originally Posted by tallica1

Holden don't need to design a newer and better engine, the current pushrod's still put out more power than the Fords Aus V8 engines, are lighter, rev higher and faster, and have a more more usuable powerband than the 5.4Litre BOSS engine. Not to mention, the pushrod has less things that can go wrong in the 'technical' Ford V8.

Sh!t...imagine if GM designed a 'technical' V8 engine like the Ford V8...poor Ford buggars wouldn't stand a chance at all. :

Here's a quote from a Wheels mag article in the comparo between the FPV Typhoon and HSV R8 that you guys might like to cuss about...

"Meantime, over in the blue camp, FPV’s current sharpest tool is the straight-sixpowered F6 Typhoon. What about the V8- powered GT-P? Sorry, but that 5.4-litre engine lacks low-down torque, doesn’t rev fast or high, and offers a usable power band of just 2500rpm. In short, the simple but effective HSV pushrod V8 would, and has, knocked the GT-P out of the park."

Wow unlike the other Holden fan in this thread you actually are trolling, you squeezed boss-bashing in this thread for no reason other than just that. Maybe if you were rebutting it wouldn't be so obvious. I'd suggest less negativity if you actually want to stay on this forum.

As for my opinion on the w427, GTS-R or whatever name it goes under I think the supercar claim is far too bold and HSV is putting themselves at a disadvantage stating it. Its styling is both considerably underwhelming and distasteful. Considering the price range this vehicle will be in, the audience looking at this will be disappointed to find this hard enough to distinguish as the twice-the-price halo car from the rest of the HSV range.

I commend HSV on giving Australia a very powerful new toy to play with, but that is as much credit as they deserve. It certainly is not an incredible feat of engineering nor deserving of massive praise, yet the majority are ignorant enough to think it is and does.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I wouldn't say they all say the same thing. In fact the same magazine will often contradict itself.

When the FPV GT was forst released Wheels absolutely raved about it. I have the review and they talk about "the insant bucketloads of torque" and the "free revving nature" as well as it's "nimble handling" and "blistering speed".

Now 5 years later apparently Wheels considers the FPV GT an understeering pig with an embarassing lack of torque and pace.

Journalists are benchmarking a car that had undergone little change in years so it is natural for them to change their minds on key areas where the competition has raised the bar.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by RTSW

.... It certainly is not an incredible feat of engineering nor deserving of massive praise, yet the majority are ignorant enough to think it is and does.

I've seen backyard mechanics slot 5 litres into Toyota Corona's. The W427 is about as impressive as a Bruce Willis action movie. Lots of loud noise but not much in the way of technical brilliance.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

I've seen backyard mechanics slot 5 litres into Toyota Corona's. The W427 is about as impressive as a Bruce Willis action movie. Lots of loud noise but not much in the way of technical brilliance.

Do you hold the same opinion to the Falcon GT/GT-HO heritage? Will you hold the same opinion if Ford drops in an overseas sourced engine for a new GT-HO?

Can most backyard mechanics offer an Australia wide factory backed warranty, do they perform countless hours of testing in a proving ground with state of the art computers and engineers for calibrations, will they be able to offer a fully modified car with up to the minute safety features without voiding my factory warranty...how many do such a thing?

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by RPO83

Do you hold the same opinion to the Falcon GT/GT-HO heritage? Will you hold the same opinion if Ford drops in an overseas sourced engine for a new GT-HO?

Can most backyard mechanics offer an Australia wide factory backed warranty, do they perform countless hours of testing in a proving ground with state of the art computers and engineers for calibrations, will they be able to offer a fully modified car with up to the minute safety features without voiding my factory warranty...how many do such a thing?

All the required engine testing would have been done, probably just redone for ADR approval. Besides, a backyard mechanic isn't going to charge you 120k either.

As for the contemporary GT's, I'm well aware they don't smash any engineering limits (but they don't pretend to like people believe the W427 does either)

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by RTSW

Wow unlike the other Holden fan in this thread you actually are trolling, you squeezed boss-bashing in this thread for no reason other than just that. Maybe if you were rebutting it wouldn't be so obvious. I'd suggest less negativity if you actually want to stay on this forum.

I commend HSV on giving Australia a very powerful new toy to play with, but that is as much credit as they deserve. It certainly is not an incredible feat of engineering nor deserving of massive praise, yet the majority are ignorant enough to think it is and does.

Originally Posted by irlewy86

I've seen backyard mechanics slot 5 litres into Toyota Corona's. The W427 is about as impressive as a Bruce Willis action movie. Lots of loud noise but not much in the way of technical brilliance.

Could one of you please post the engineering and technical specs you have for the W427. I missed them so find it hard to determine the extent of engineering that has gone into it.

[BadMac]

Ok thanks to another member who can claim credit if he wishes, here are some real photos of the W427. I think it looks much better in decent pictures. Notice the boot chin spoiler and the shark fin aerial. Also the wheels look much better in good photos, personally I still prefer the GTS ones (and F6 19"s) but they are better than R8 or Senator. The front bar looks more cohesive in these pics. I also happen to like the red interior, but realise its not everybodies cup of tea.

Thanks for sharing the photos especially with those of us in the mainland who won't see a real one for a while.

[XC Ute]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Could one of you please post the engineering and technical specs you have for the W427. I missed them so find it hard to determine the extent of engineering that has gone into it.

HSV may not have re-invented the wheel by dropping in the bigger LS7 but I at least give them some credit for the following:

Dry sump set up on an Aussie factory car. I give full marks to HSV for this becuase it would have been much easier to scrap the dry sump set up and go with a conventional wet sump. Good on 'em for sticking to their guns and not watering down the LS7. HSV themselves even said it was the hard way to do it but they wanted to keep the dry sump. Shows a great attitude if you ask me.

Biggest factory brakes ever fitted to an Aussie car. 380mm front rotors with 6pot calipers. Not a bad effort. Porsche 911 TURBO has 350mm front rotors by the way.

Over the Radiator cold air induction. I suppose not particularly challenging but maybe more important than you think given it will probably make it's way down to other HSV models plus it's a very popular mod for LS1/2 owners so having a factory system potentially available for them as a bolt on would be cool.

They also retuned the suspension, the Magnetic Ride Control settings, added active mufflers (apparently this is a great idea on the FG but not on the W427), dedicated engine oil cooler etc etc.

Obviously the LS7 itself is an immensely impressive bit of kit. 7 litre capacity yet weighs less than 210kg, forged steel 6 bolt main caps, forged steel crank, titanium rods, titanium intake valves, sodium filled exhaust valves, CNC ported heads with a 12 degree valve angle and the list goes on.

HSV did not design the LS7 but at least give them credit for bringing it to Australia and for seemingly doing it right. The response from some people here has made me laugh, on one hand you have it being compared to dropping a 5 litre into a Corolla and on the other you have it beieng compared to a Veyron...

I guess at the end of the day it's all speculation until it gets driven. From the specs released though it's easy to see this being marked as the greatest muscle car ever built in Australia. Shame it's a HSV W427 and not a Falcon with a 427W...

[FlipXW]

I agree Badmac, certainly does look much better in those pics ;). I'm just extremely keen to hear the FG performance times across the range. Cant wait.

[BHDOGS]

it looks crap

[ltd]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

it looks crap

Doesn't float my boat either. It looks like a commodore with some rice.

[XC Ute]

At first I thought it looked terrible however looking at the additional pics posted by BadMac I think the car actually looks, well a bit less crap. Colour doesn't help either. I reckon it's too soft and looks from the photos to have a bit of a pearl effect. Would probably suit a Calais V pretty well but not the W427.

Anyway judging by the poor reaction to the looks (not just from Ford fans) I think there is a fair chance HSV will make some amendments before release.

[ST]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Could one of you please post the engineering and technical specs you have for the W427. I missed them so find it hard to determine the extent of engineering that has gone into it.

I think you have failed to realise that HSV have simply adapted a VE to accommodate the 7.0, not built it from scratch.

[irlewy86]

blah, blah, blah, blah

Over the radiator intake - already widely available aftermarket.

Semi Active muffler - Isn't that coming on the 40k XR8?

Suspension tune - Most people had a stab at FPV when they released special editions with a suspension tune

Dry sump setup - Must have been challenging finding a place for the oil tank. I wonder if it is in the boot with the battery?

Red leather interior - Must have spent weeks trying to engineer that. I can picture HSV's engineers watching Seasme Street right now.

Still maybe there is a behind the scene story of some great problem the engineers had to face. Like picking up the phone and ordering the 7 litre.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by RTSW

I think you have failed to realise that HSV have simply adapted a VE to accommodate the 7.0, not built it from scratch.

Have I failed to realise? I haven't seen the car, I've read the specs, but don't understand the engineering that you have obviously seen or read about and found wanting. I am simply asking you to share your knowledge so I can make up my own mind on the merits of the car. Please enlighten me.

[Fordmuscle1965]

Personally I'd rather spend my money on this, if speed is all your after! Braking might be a little bit less than having a set of 6 pots but we do have a parachute! :

http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars..._id=0&trecs=36

We still have 25 grand left over for decent brakes and a few beers!

Theres nothing like the shape of a XYGT

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Have I failed to realise? I haven't seen the car, I've read the specs, but don't understand the engineering that you have obviously seen or read about and found wanting. I am simply asking you to share your knowledge so I can make up my own mind on the merits of the car. Please enlighten me.

You're not exactly going to get everybody jumping with joy because it is HSV.
Regardlesss of what the specs are the engine is a proven race bred and winning formular in the worlds toughest 24 Hr races so it cant be too bad.

A Senator is already superbly set up so bigger brakes and a few tweaks plus the LS7 would be all that is required I expect.

After all the talk of MMS and FG I went to take a BFII Typhoon for a drive at John Andrew Ford yesterday. NZ'z biggest Ford/FPV dealer - they dont have a demo because they only sell 2-4 FPV's a month! Only FPV in sight was stuck in the corner of the showroom and nobody gave a hoot.
One of the staff there I know used to work for an HSV Dealer and she said it was dissapointing they didnt give FPV the same recognition at Dealership level. I think they need to lift their game - Cmon Ford!

[tallica1]

Originally Posted by RTSW

Wow unlike the other Holden fan in this thread you actually are trolling, you squeezed boss-bashing in this thread for no reason other than just that. Maybe if you were rebutting it wouldn't be so obvious. I'd suggest less negativity if you actually want to stay on this forum.

As for my opinion on the w427, GTS-R or whatever name it goes under I think the supercar claim is far too bold and HSV is putting themselves at a disadvantage stating it. Its styling is both considerably underwhelming and distasteful. Considering the price range this vehicle will be in, the audience looking at this will be disappointed to find this hard enough to distinguish as the twice-the-price halo car from the rest of the HSV range.

I commend HSV on giving Australia a very powerful new toy to play with, but that is as much credit as they deserve. It certainly is not an incredible feat of engineering nor deserving of massive praise, yet the majority are ignorant enough to think it is and does.

Haha Nah I'm not "trolling" whatever that means. I'm just not one-eyed and like to visit both Holden and Ford forums to see whats new, whats being talked about etc.

Who said I was boss-bashing? Just because I stated a few things I've read and heard from other Boss owners, doesn't mean I'm bashing it. Ooooo I mentioned a few negatives about the BOSS engine so what, that must make me a Holden fan? So over on these forums people can't mention any negatives about a Ford product ey? Gee...sensitive lol!

I squeezed it in this thread because I noticed couple people here thought they could squeeze in some LS* engine negativity in here, so I thought I'd make a few points on the Boss engine just so it's equal. Creates a balance ya know. I mentioned I liked the sound of the BOSS engine to show there are characteristics about it which I like...it's not all bad.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by tallica1

I squeezed it in this thread because I noticed couple people here thought they could squeeze in some LS* engine negativity in here, so I thought I'd make a few points on the Boss engine just so it's equal. Creates a balance ya know. I mentioned I liked the sound of the BOSS engine to show there are characteristics about it which I like...it's not all bad.

The thread name is : "The real GTS-R for Melbourne"

So positive and negative comments regarding the LS will come up.
Bagging the Boss in an unrelated thread amounts to trolling, not balancing.

If you wish to discuss shortcomings of the Boss feel free to start a thread in the appropriate sub forum.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by tallica1

Haha Nah I'm not "trolling" whatever that means. I'm just not one-eyed and like to visit both Holden and Ford forums to see whats new, whats being talked about etc.

Who said I was boss-bashing? Just because I stated a few things I've read and heard from other Boss owners, doesn't mean I'm bashing it. Ooooo I mentioned a few negatives about the BOSS engine so what, that must make me a Holden fan? So over on these forums people can't mention any negatives about a Ford product ey? Gee...sensitive lol!

I squeezed it in this thread because I noticed couple people here thought they could squeeze in some LS* engine negativity in here, so I thought I'd make a few points on the Boss engine just so it's equal. Creates a balance ya know. I mentioned I liked the sound of the BOSS engine to show there are characteristics about it which I like...it's not all bad.

Just out of curiosity, are you the same tallica1 that post comments in car related vids on youtube?

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The thread name is : "The real GTS-R for Melbourne"

So positive and negative comments regarding the LS will come up.
Bagging the Boss in an unrelated thread amounts to trolling, not balancing.

If you wish to discuss shortcomings of the Boss feel free to start a thread in the appropriate sub forum.

Yeh take that tallica1

[Bossxr8]

Those photos don't make one iota of difference to me, it still looks crap. The lip spoiler looks crap, the front looks crap, like they tried to make it look like an Audi or something, and the colour is lame. A GTS looks way better, but thats not saying much either. This car would be a big dissapointment in terms of looks for HSV fans, who would have expected the big gun model to look more aggresive than the rest of the range. It looks soft.

[04redxr8]

Being a Holden and thinking of the typical buyer for them (HSV's in particular) I think W stands for w a n k e r

[irlewy86]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't 50 Cent already release his own 7 litre Pontiac G8