Do you warm up your car on cold mornings?

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by trublu

Go ask any automotive mechanic, I'm sure they would qualify to answer this question.

Not the same as a Ford engineer who might have been involved in the design and testing of the engines at manufacturer level..... Automotive mechanic, on the other hand, out of school at 16, 3 to 4 year apprenticeship on fixing cars and classroom theory, then many try to rip you blind when you want your car fixed and half the time don't diagnosis the problem right first time. ... okay I'm generalising

[99AUXR]

Ouch to the above. . . . But as a 22 y/o mechanic, personally fuel/oil dilution and excess fuel condensing on cylinder walls and washing isn't an issue for those cars left to idle for a short period of time as the enrichment phase doesn't last very long. Just enough to get it to a stage where fuel wont condensate on cylinder walls. Fuel dilution more seen with those who are constantly cold running their cars especially on short trips.

IMO there is no difference either way for the modern car and modern oils with getting in and driving as they are thin enough to not cause oil starvation issues when cold. Me personally I let it warm up but I live in some -14 temps during the winter. In the summer I dont mind, start then idle down long driveway before slowly driving until up to temp.

[Maka]

Tighter internal tolerances in newer motors + thinner specified engine oils = shorter warmup times afaik.

cheer's, Maka

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Maka

Tighter internal tolerances in newer motors + thinner specified engine oils = shorter warmup times afaik.

cheer's, Maka

Tolerances need to be tighter for emissions. Also warming quicker helps geeatly with this.

[Sprint]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Hmm, well I feel the debate about weather to warm or not to warm isn't about acknowledging that "warming is better but is it worth it?" but more, "IS warming actually better, or is it possibly worse for your engine?"

Yes I'd support anything which can prolong the life of the engine you want to baby, BUT could you be doing more damage by idling an engine for 5 minutes when cold every day?

Its been mentioned that Carbied and/or worked engines just do not want to run when cold so this is of course an exception. But how about fuel injected cars that run fine from the get go?

The amount of wear we are bickering about would be negligible, modern engines are ever better built and lubed so built for start and use, we all know you cant baby your engine, especially on the run in period. I'm yet to see issues with cars idling for 30 minutes or under. Infact there are many motor that don't rev at all like generators, machinery etc.

Is it better or does it damage more? call in the mythbusters I think.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Tolerances need to be tighter for emissions. Also warming quicker helps geeatly with this.

Tolerances need to be tighter for emissions, rubbish !

A engines spec tolerances have nothing to do with emissions, the pistons nowadays are tighter due to the modern short skirt design only, the crank bearing spec has nothing to do with emissions.

The engine does not warm up quicker at all, this has only to do with the cat being put nearer to the engine as too heat it up quicker only and this only helps a bit to lower the emissions from when cold faster.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Just a question for the "warmers" here. What is the goal of warming the engine, like the long term goal? Less engine wear? Increased engine life? other?

Dads old AU2, 650k, never warmed up. Engine still runs sweet (though gearbox packed it in). It runs so smooth infact that I'd see no issue with getting another 100-200k.

So is the aim of warming the engine to reach the 1,000,000 kilometer mark?

Idling to warm has the opposite effect it increases wear. That's why owners manuals such as BMW say not to do it but then who reads owners manuals?

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by trublu

Good question, but for me I'm old school & just a habit I suppose but I see no harm warming as people see no harm driving off from cold.

Cheers.

Then you don't understand fuel injection operation when cold and the effects of fuel dilution...........

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

Well, I just went and read my car manual, and there is nothing contained within it that relates to warming up my Falcon on a cold morning before driving off.

Quoted from the FG Falcon owners manual sitting in front of me as I type listed on page 259 under Fuel Economy -

".....Warming the engine is not necessary........."


Also on page 5 under Running In -

".....Do not allow the engine to idle for excessive periods of time....."


On two occasions Ford have stated in the owners manual that either warming the engine or excessive idling is not recommended.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by sprintman1

Then you don't understand fuel injection operation when cold and the effects of fuel dilution...........

I quite well understand, warming up or not is not going to make any discernible difference, read & understand what I said, I prefer to warm up.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Quoted from the FG Falcon owners manual sitting in front of me as I type listed on page 259 under Fuel Economy -

".....Warming the engine is not necessary........."


Also on page 5 under Running In -

".....Do not allow the engine to idle for excessive periods of time....."


On two occasions Ford have stated in the owners manual that either warming the engine or excessive idling is not recommended.

Nope... You must have a different owners manual to mine. Is yours an FG or FGMKII ?

On page 259 of my manual it talks about "phone and Bluetooth"
In fact there is no section in my manual on "Fuel economy".

Yes on page 6 (not page 5) it does say ".....Do not allow the engine to idle for excessive periods of time.....", but you are taking this statement "out of context" to suit your argument.
That statement is in and solely related to "running in" the car from new and only for the first 1,500Kms as stated.That has nothing to do with warming up your car once your car has been run in after the 1,500Km mark.

[DFB FGXR6]

Yes FG and save for minor calibration changes, the powertrain is the same.

Yes I suppose I have taken statements out of context but what I'm trying to point out is Ford have stated twice that warming up or idling is not required in those two conditions and its safe to assume warming the engine on a cold morning wouldn't be any different.

[josh1990]

Mine gets the time between start up, hooking up my phone via bluetooth, picking an album, roller door up and idle out, roller door down then on my way. Take it easy for the first block then drive regularly. Depending on how bad traffic is at the time it may see a bit of boot at an intersection approximately 3km from home

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

I have been monitoring my cars running temps for the last 5 months, mainly to monitor my trans temps since installing an air/oil cooler and have found that the engine warms up quite rapidly from cold when idling or when driving.

I have tried idling for up to 2mins and seen the engine temp get to 60C from as low as 16C in that time, but this is still not the normal running temp and what about all the other components of the car that are not warming up.

The trans gets to its minimum optimum operating temp in 3-5mins from cold when driving with or without idling,

If I set off without idling intentionally the engine takes up to 10mins to get to its normal operating temp of 90C.

Also it could be argued you are wasting fuel whilst not on the move.

So based on my experience there is no advantage in idling a modern car, they are designed to warm by driving.

The manual talks about not idling for long periods of time because of the hazards of the high temp of the catylitic converter sitting under your car, not for any other reason.

[Olbucko]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I have been monitoring my cars running temps for the last 5 months, mainly to monitor my trans temps since installing an air/oil cooler and have found that the engine warms up quite rapidly from cold when idling or when driving.

I have tried idling for up to 2mins and seen the engine temp get to 60C from as low as 16C in that time, but this is still not the normal running temp and what about all the other components of the car that are not warming up.

The trans gets to its minimum optimum operating temp in 3-5mins from cold when driving with or without idling,

If I set off without idling intentionally the engine takes up to 10mins to get to its normal operating temp of 90C.

Also it could be argued you are wasting fuel whilst not on the move.

So based on my experience there is no advantage in idling a modern car, they are designed to warm by driving.

The manual talks about not idling for long periods of time because of the hazards of the high temp of the catylitic converter sitting under your car, not for any other reason.

Have you been able to monitor the oil temp? even though the engine may reach min operating temp in about 10 mins, I believe that it takes at least 20 minutes to get the oil hot enough to boil off moisture and other contaminates.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Olbucko

Have you been able to monitor the oil temp? even though the engine may reach min operating temp in about 10 mins, I believe that it takes at least 20 minutes to get the oil hot enough to boil off moisture and other contaminates.

I have, it tends to follow the engine coolant temp.

[Davehoos]

I have a BF-The oil temp temp given is that a real oil temp or a calculated temp?
mine normally 1 -4 degree more than water temp. and normal temp of 98-105 after 20 km. coolant is between 93-96. with a/c on it stays at 93 but other temps move a little.

I recently fitted a coolder thermostat as a test and have watched temp data on scan tool. the auto tans temp was slightly cooler. all other temps eventually get to the same aprox temp-only takes a few extra km to get there.

[sly_ba]

Big difference between an engine that is run in and a brand new engine...

[Davehoos]

The manual talks about not idling for long periods of time because of the hazards of the high temp of the catylitic converter sitting under your car, not for any other reason.
__________________

Number of reasons for not idling a newer emission engine other than contamination or over heating.

Also not running an engine at a RPM that it wasn't balanced to run at or at set RPM for extended hours [except Fixed RPM engines].

for a large engine the falcon reasonably smooth. I would suspect that as a taxi fleet engine it was designed with this in mind. Brocken cranks, stretched timing chains and harmonic balancers are not that common.
I have worked on loads of other engines that the same cant be said.

Lot of engines have resonance issues in mid range RPM. For some reason customers choose to run the engine at that UNSWEET spot to warm up the engine.

Had sucseesfull warranty claims for blocks/liners that vibrated, excessive crank bearing clearance that allowed Pinking or oil use and blow by.
Often pinking can cause oil consumption or blow by-- but this is not the same as above [chicken or the egg].

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by trublu

What you think the cylinders walls don't get lubricated with every piston stroke with the use of modern synthetic oils, I doubt very much warming engine at idle will contribute to any excessive wear & tear.

FI goes to full rich when cold. You work it out...and UOA's on engines idled show high levels of fuel dilution, not what you want in your oil at any time.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by Sprint

The amount of wear we are bickering about would be negligible, modern engines are ever better built and lubed so built for start and use, we all know you cant baby your engine, especially on the run in period. I'm yet to see issues with cars idling for 30 minutes or under. Infact there are many motor that don't rev at all like generators, machinery etc.

Is it better or does it damage more? call in the mythbusters I think.

Read some UOA's on engines idled too long, it's an interesting read

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by trublu

I quite well understand, warming up or not is not going to make any discernible difference, read & understand what I said, I prefer to warm up.

Multiple UOA's prove otherwise

[Bill M]

In the thread referenced earlier one BF XR6 owner said his owners manual stated a 30 second warm up is recommended. So for those who prefer a brief warm up there it is in writing from the manufacturer and for those that don't, well it doesn't matter.
Enjoy your ride

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by sprintman1

Multiple UOA's prove otherwise

life changing

throw up some links

[Olbucko]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

for a large engine the falcon reasonably smooth. I would suspect that as a taxi fleet engine it was designed with this in mind. Brocken cranks, stretched timing chains and harmonic balancers are not that common.

The Falcon motor was never designed for taxis, it was designed by Ford in 1958 as a simple, basic, 2.365 litre motor developing 64 KW for Ford's cheap new economy car, the Falcon.
Falcons did not become popular as taxies in Aust until the mid seventies, until then the vast majority of taxies were Holdens.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

life changing

throw up some links

www.bobistheoilguy.com. Separate UOA thread

www.noria.com

Should keep you occupied for a fair while

[Trevor 57]

start it, reverse it out of the shed, then drive off reasonably, you don't need to build up air pressure or anything, once you have oil pressure, drive it

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

I have a BF-The oil temp temp given is that a real oil temp or a calculated temp?
mine normally 1 -4 degree more than water temp. and normal temp of 98-105 after 20 km. coolant is between 93-96. with a/c on it stays at 93 but other temps move a little.

I recently fitted a coolder thermostat as a test and have watched temp data on scan tool. the auto tans temp was slightly cooler. all other temps eventually get to the same aprox temp-only takes a few extra km to get there.

Just checked my logs again, am using ELM327 WIFI for IPad and FORScan.

The oil temp reading is from a thermistor, the coolant temp from a sensor in the coolant and the ZF6 fluid temp from a sensor inside the trans.

Whilst idling the oil temp barely moves, the coolant temp goes up fairly quickly and the trans temp barely moves.

On a 9C ambient morning before starting the engine my oil temp was 15C, coolant 16C and trans fluid 17C.

After idling for 1min, engine oil 17C, coolant 37C, and trans 17C.

After 5mins driving engine oil 50C, coolant 68C, trans 30C.

After 10mins driving engine oil 82C, coolant 92C and trans 40C.

Have never seen my coolant above 102C and trans above 65C, that was a 40C day.

My oil temp tends to lag the coolant by 20C whilst warming up.

My normal runs are only usually 10 -15 mins and I just start up and set off.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Olbucko

The Falcon motor was never designed for taxis, it was designed by Ford in 1958 as a simple, basic, 2.365 litre motor developing 64 KW for Ford's cheap new economy car, the Falcon.
Falcons did not become popular as taxies in Aust until the mid seventies, until then the vast majority of taxies were Holdens.

I remember that in QLD the taxies were all Holden's mainly but when the XA Falcon came out the taxies all mainly went to Ford from then on, i think it had to do with the taxies were mainly ex cop cars, as all the cop cars were Falcons in QLD from XA to XF, I don't remember any Holden cop cars in them years at all.
I don't remember any HQ taxi but some HZ were around and some VH-J Valiant.

[BFGasUte]

Hello,

Once the early problems were forgotten, the Falcon was the Car to have for mechanical strength and durability. Before the hybrids, most Cabs were Falcons.