Holden Sportswagon Release News

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Ahh but who said Holden would be lucky to sell half that number? Who was it that was writing it's obituary before its actual release? Last time I remember, it was someone who was lauding his 'credibility'.

And I did notice the Holden Ute sales had dropped so that Holden could push the wagon to the showrooms with adequate supply. Don't forget, Holden do have their export obligations to fulfil. The plant is running at capacity, hence the drop in VE ute sales during the month.

Pfft.. 1 month of demo rego's and pipe fill..... having credibility is something you'll only ever dream of here.
By the way, i thought i was on your ignore list now??!!

[Buddy 1]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Regardless of the fact its a better drive, its a crap work ute, and always will be.

The Falcons will always win as a work ute...

This has all been said before however let me make 2 points:

1. Not all Ute Buyers will carry heavy or Dirty Loads or are Tradies.

2. The VE SS load Capacity is better than the FG XR6 from Memory.

With the Roads so Bad in Many parts of the Country the VE in Ute Form wins hands down because of its Ride & Handling (On Sub Standard Roads) which is most of them lol

Unless you are a Tradie who is in Love with Leaf Springs as we all know Leaf Springs make it a mans Ute LMAO

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Regardless of the fact its a better drive, its a crap work ute, and always will be.

The Falcons will always win as a work ute...

Crap in who's eyes? Do you take the load ratings as gospel? If so, you'd know the VE Ute has at least as much load carrying capacity. Tell me how many Falcon Ute owners carry the load that exceeds the limits of the VE Ute.

It's a pointless argument. Both utes, if used to their limits, will do the same job, regardless. Anything more than that and you are possibly voiding your factory warranty... but definitely voiding your insurance policy, I'd say.

You can't have it both ways. The Commodore Sportswagon sucks because its not a real wagon. The VE Ute sucks because its not a real ute. But the fact is both these products get their success on merit. And so, too, the Falcon wagon and ute, I might add.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Pfft.. 1 month of demo rego's and pipe fill..... having credibility is something you'll only ever dream of here.
By the way, i thought i was on your ignore list now??!!

I don't dream about credibility. See my sig. I don't make up stories which separates my style from one or two others here. I'm not a product basher, unlike a notable few here. I am here because I'm genuinely interested in the FG (now that I have no SS anymore). I'm also a member of other Ford forums in case the message is still lost.

My mistake re the ignore list. I looked at the thread without having logged in. But I'll make sure in future I access the page with cookie intact. That way, I won't need to read the unnecessary stuff. :

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Buddy 1

This has all been said before however let me make 2 points:

1. Not all Ute Buyers will carry heavy or Dirty Loads or are Tradies.

2. The VE SS load Capacity is better than the FG XR6 from Memory.

With the Roads so Bad in Many parts of the Country the VE in Ute Form wins hands down because of its Ride & Handling (On Sub Standard Roads) which is most of them lol

Unless you are a Tradie who is in Love with Leaf Springs as we all know Leaf Springs make it a mans Ute LMAO

XR6 ute has the option of a 1.2 tonne payload, the VE would snap in half with that sort of load. The top end sports utes like XR8 and XR Turbo are load rated to the tyres load rating, if they had tyres with a higher load rating the max weight capacity would be a hell of a lot higher than the VE ute with the same tyres as it has the chassis and suspension that can handle that load, the VE ute doesn't have that. Its a show pony, nothing more nothing less.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

XR6 ute has the option of a 1.2 tonne payload, the VE would snap in half with that sort of load. The top end sports utes like XR8 and XR Turbo are load rated to the tyres load rating, if they had tyres with a higher load rating the max weight capacity would be a hell of a lot higher than the VE ute with the same tyres as it has the chassis and suspension that can handle that load, the VE ute doesn't have that. Its a show pony, nothing more nothing less.

Exactly.
Ive got friends with SS utes and if you load them the IRS camber change at the rear chops out the inside of the tyre something cronic.
In contrast the Falcon leaf solid rear end keeps the tyre squarely with the road.
The Falcon is a far better "fit for purpose" ute.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Crap in who's eyes? Do you take the load ratings as gospel? If so, you'd know the VE Ute has at least as much load carrying capacity. Tell me how many Falcon Ute owners carry the load that exceeds the limits of the VE Ute.

It's a pointless argument. Both utes, if used to their limits, will do the same job, regardless. Anything more than that and you are possibly voiding your factory warranty... but definitely voiding your insurance policy, I'd say.

You can't have it both ways. The Commodore Sportswagon sucks because its not a real wagon. The VE Ute sucks because its not a real ute. But the fact is both these products get their success on merit. And so, too, the Falcon wagon and ute, I might add.

Yes I do take note ot the load ratings as fair indication on the carrying capacity. Do you really beleive that a VE will load as much as an AU-FG ute? Absolutely no hope in hell a VE will load 1/2 what the oppostion will carry and still be able to drive with confidence!

I load my AU daily with around the 700 odd kg plus and drive it all over Melb, and also use JET and KINGS transport every second day ....... and guess what these fleets/owner drivers use? Not one V what ever ..... none ..... zip ..... comes through when a one tonne is ordered. If a 500kg is required, a V may turn up in tray form.Then there are the Rangers and Mazda's ....... great work horses

Moving off topic here but I suppose yes, as a 'sports' ute or 'sport' wagon, all the metrosexuals can have there Holdens and they do suit a semi - masculine purpose ....... in my aspect, damn useless things as I love a ute I can just use and abuse!



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[4Vman]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Yes I do take note ot the load ratings as fair indication on the carrying capacity. Do you really beleive that a VE will load as much as an AU-FG ute? Absolutely no hope in hell a VE will load 1/2 what the oppostion will carry and still be able to drive with confidence!

I load my AU daily with around the 700 odd kg plus and drive it all over Melb, and also use JET and KINGS transport every second day ....... and guess what these fleets/owner drivers use? Not one V what ever ..... none ..... zip ..... comes through when a one tonne is ordered. If a 500kg is required, a V may turn up in tray form.Then there are the Rangers and Mazda's ....... great work horses

Moving off topic here but I suppose yes, as a 'sports' ute or 'sport' wagon, all the metrosexuals can have there Holdens and they do suit a semi - masculine purpose ....... in my aspect, damn useless things as I love a ute I can just use and abuse!

Yes, spot on, i think "show pony" is an excellent description for the Holden ute/wagon series as oppsed to "Work Horse" for the Falcon range.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

XR6 ute has the option of a 1.2 tonne payload, the VE would snap in half with that sort of load. The top end sports utes like XR8 and XR Turbo are load rated to the tyres load rating, if they had tyres with a higher load rating the max weight capacity would be a hell of a lot higher than the VE ute with the same tyres as it has the chassis and suspension that can handle that load, the VE ute doesn't have that. Its a show pony, nothing more nothing less.

The SS ute's visibility out of the rear must be atrocious with the hardtop. I was directly behind one today, I couldn't see his rear view mirror. I'd hate to try and back that thing up into a work site.

[Aeron]

Well, i've seen more VE Sportswagons on the road in Sydney than FG FPV's.

I quite like the wagon. Looks nice!

[lowriding]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Regardless of the fact its a better drive, its a crap work ute, and always will be.

The Falcons will always win as a work ute...

The problem with ford taking a high road and positioning the Falcon Ute is some sort of true workhorse is of course it isnt ! Unable to compete on a driveability comparison so took a work image approach .Ford knows this is a bluff of course as it continues to sell genuine commercial stuff like the Ranger .
I used to deal closely with several large courier outfits in sydney and i can tell you about 0.5% of the fleets were falcon or commodore based .Jap utes are the workhorses of this Country i'm afraid .

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Yes I do take note ot the load ratings as fair indication on the carrying capacity. Do you really beleive that a VE will load as much as an AU-FG ute? Absolutely no hope in hell a VE will load 1/2 what the oppostion will carry and still be able to drive with confidence!

And I doubt many Utes would be loaded to the max anyways. That's what Hiluxs are for.

As I said, pointless argument as the sales results for both makes supports both 'types' of utes. Some prefer the near sedan ride qualities of the SS Ute, while others are more pragmatic and opt for a proven workhorse qualities of the Falcon Ute. Both formulas work.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by lowriding

The problem with ford taking a high road and positioning the Falcon Ute is some sort of true workhorse is of course it isnt ! Unable to compete on a driveability comparison so took a work image approach .Ford knows this is a bluff of course as it continues to sell genuine commercial stuff like the Ranger .
I used to deal closely with several large courier outfits in sydney and i can tell you about 0.5% of the fleets were falcon or commodore based .Jap utes are the workhorses of this Country i'm afraid .

NO! I have an AU Tray AND a new Ranger 4x2. I also use couriers daily .... They BOTH work as hard as each other but the Ranger on comparison is back braking to drive, long distance, unladen only, while on the other hand: You do loose in the carrying on the AU, becoming a little floaty with a one tonne load but both are extremely capable and will carry the same amount.

0.5% of the fleet? I have no idea what the ratio is but obviously you have seen the ratio figures? Yes rodeos, couriers, rangers, hilux's, (very very minimal Mitsubushi) and a very large quantity of AU & BA's. Not one owner driver working for a courier company that I use have V whatevers for a 1 tonne tray ..... Alot of Falcon utes are used as work hacks

Originally Posted by SSbaby

And I doubt many Utes would be loaded to the max anyways. That's what Hiluxs are for.

Oh Boy :



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[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by auslandau

Oh Boy :

Thanks for the compliment.

So you are disagreeing with me that a turbo diesel Hilux (for example) wouldn't do a better job of hauling than either Ford or Holden utes?

OR

Are you disagreeing with my comment that the Ford/Holden utes wouldn't be loaded to the tilt? Hmmmm, I wonder why you have a Ranger in your fleet as well?

[Auslandau]

Your welcome

No not disagreeing with you that a turbo diesel Hilux (for example) is a good workhorse .... some who have them on this forums would dissagree though but is not in the same categorie, or anywhere near it to a 'soft' Holden ute. Compared to a 1 tonne tray Ford ute? Will do exactly the same job, except for the the height advantages and 4x4 options and will also have there pros and cons between both.

I am disagreeing that many who have Ford trays load them to the hilt? I agree though loading Holdens with a slab of cans and an esky is probably just short of 'to the hilt' but getting close.

Why do I have a Ranger as well? Because of the 20k drive away, diesel turbo and I dont have to drive it as I have my AU tray to myself and prefer the comforts with a full load on the back! Fuel economy, minimal maintenance, good load capacity (simular to the AU) etc.

I am comparing a 1 tonne Falcon ute used as a ute. Not a XR8 with 19's lowered to the max ........ where the biggest load is the passenger and the weight of the amps and sub woofers.



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[xbsedanman]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep.. Lets face it Ford has smashed holden with the territory.. they have no answer for it, they had to do something, but this wagon is a token effort, in a market where SUV style wagons are dominating because of their size, raised driver position and space this wagon goes against market trends... IMO this car is a poor response..

I think comparing a Territory to a sports wagon would be like comparing a harley davidson with a pocket bike. Territory is aimed at the 4WD market, sportswagon is aimed at family wagon market. Which I'm guessing is why 'wagon' is part of the name :

[FTE217]

FFS can't this stay on topic, its about a family wagon, not a workhorse SUV etc......
Ford do not have a variant in this class.....

[Uncle Raggy]

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

Ford do not have a variant in this class.....

Wouldn't the Falcon XT wagon be in the same class? Although a far older design it's still current in the market place

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...Page&c=DFYPage

[4Vman]

RWD Territory is a Family/work wagon.....
4wd Territory is aimed at the soft roader market.....
Turbo Territory is aimed at the performance wagon market...
Ford has all bases covered.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by uncleraggy

Wouldn't the Falcon XT wagon be in the same class? Although a far older design it's still current in the market place

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...Page&c=DFYPage

Yer current alright ? I'd imagine 99% of sales are fleet so it's really not out there to compete with current wagons be it Commodore or other for joe family publics hard earned.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by xbcoupe384

I think comparing a Territory to a sports wagon would be like comparing a harley davidson with a pocket bike. Territory is aimed at the 4WD market, sportswagon is aimed at family wagon market. Which I'm guessing is why 'wagon' is part of the name :

The Territory is not your real off-roader, like your Pajero, Landcruiser or Patrol. It does have 4WD capability, but it isn't designed for the really rough stuff.

Its focus is on the SUV market, although it fits into more than one category due to 4WD.

Also, what else would Holden call it's wagon? The Long Hatchback?

What does "Barina" mean in that case? "I hope to lose my legs"?

[xbsedanman]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

The Territory is not your real off-roader, like your Pajero, Landcruiser or Patrol. It does have 4WD capability, but it isn't designed for the really rough stuff.

Its focus is on the SUV market, although it fits into more than one category due to 4WD.

Also, what else would Holden call it's wagon? The Long Hatchback?

What does "Barina" mean in that case? "I hope to lose my legs"?

My point is, the two cars being compared are in different classes so what is the point in trying to compare them? As you've pointed out, the Territory is aimed at the SUV market, not the family wagon market. Holden could call the sports wagon whatever they like, fact is it's a wagon! Not an SUV, not a 4WD, not anything other than a wagon.

What else would they call their wagon? I guess anything they like. They called their 2 door variant of the Commodore a Monaro. The name doesn't always have to describe the vehicle, it's simply a name.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by xbcoupe384

My point is, the two cars being compared are in different classes so what is the point in trying to compare them? As you've pointed out, the Territory is aimed at the SUV market, not the family wagon market. Holden could call the sports wagon whatever they like, fact is it's a wagon! Not an SUV, not a 4WD, not anything other than a wagon.

What else would they call their wagon? I guess anything they like. They called their 2 door variant of the Commodore a Monaro. The name doesn't always have to describe the vehicle, it's simply a name.

Except I know a lot of former Falcon Wagon buyers who switched to buying Territorys.

All that the Tezza needs now is an E-Gas option to make the Falcon Wagon obsolete.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by xbcoupe384

My point is, the two cars being compared are in different classes so what is the point in trying to compare them? As you've pointed out, the Territory is aimed at the SUV market, not the family wagon market. Holden could call the sports wagon whatever they like, fact is it's a wagon! Not an SUV, not a 4WD, not anything other than a wagon.

What else would they call their wagon? I guess anything they like. They called their 2 door variant of the Commodore a Monaro. The name doesn't always have to describe the vehicle, it's simply a name.

You mean, the Territory is classified as an SUV? An acronym for "Sports Utility Vehicle"?

I wonder which is more "Sporty", Territory or VE Sportswagon? :

[GlennBA]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Also, what else would Holden call it's wagon? The Long Hatchback?

Its a wagon. Just because its not a boring telstra fleet car that is still half an 1998 AU falcon, doesn't make it any less of a wagon. If anything holden are really quite smart for honing in on the market for the "sportswagon". Its like a more affordable alternative to an audi a4/a6 avant, or a 300C touring, etc..
Euro car manufacturers have made wagons this style for ages. I think theres quite a few biased opinions in this thread.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by GlennBA

Its a wagon. Just because its not a boring telstra fleet car that is still half an 1998 AU falcon, doesn't make it any less of a wagon. If anything holden are really quite smart for honing in on the market for the "sportswagon". Its like a more affordable alternative to an audi a4/a6 avant, or a 300C touring, etc..
Euro car manufacturers have made wagons this style for ages. I think theres quite a few biased opinions in this thread.

Spot on regarding the bias.....

[Abacus]

I had a look at a Sportswagon yesterday. The load area is not as small as some posters in this thread have made out. If I was in the market for a petrol fuelled wagon I would probably buy one over a BFIII Falcon.

The only things that would stop me buying it is the lack of an LPG variant, and the awful drivetrain.

Someone said in this thread that there is no space for under-car LPG tank placement. However, looking at the one I saw yesterday, it seems feasible to put a toroidal tank in the spare wheel well and mount a space saver spare vertically on the side of the luggage area.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by xbcoupe384

They called their 2 door variant of the Commodore a Monaro. The name doesn't always have to describe the vehicle, it's simply a name.

Don't get your point??? They have always called the 2 door Monaro (and then later for a while the 4 door version) after their 4 door family sedans variants in the past, or at least the ones I have seen anyway.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Don't get your point??? They have always called the 2 door Monaro (and then later for a while the 4 door version) after their 4 door family sedans variants in the past, or at least the ones I have seen anyway.

4 door Monaro???

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by Abacus

4 door Monaro???

Are you only thinking of just the V II through to the CV8Z models only??? as the name Monaro goes back to the HK and continued through to HZ before being canned and then resurrected for the last example.

The first 4 door versions appeared in HQ as a GTS long after the name Monaro established itself as a 2 door only and were sold along side of the coupe. The last 4 door version came out during the HZ and at that time you could only get a 4 door version as the last 2 door Monaro appeared as an LE during the HX model.

As I recall Holden weren't going to call the last coupe a Monaro anyway but I remember seeing a petition (back in 2001 or so) at the Birdwood Mill that people were signing to encourage Holden to still call it a Monaro. It seems that the Holden faithful must have won out as they only see a 2 door version of the family hack as a Monaro.

Sorry for this being off topic. Bud Bud