Update, that VIC Burnley tunnel crash

[Unco]

^^ i agree with you. if you look at the footage from that point onwards, yes, he did not indicate long enough. there was maybe 1 blink before he changed lanes in a very abrupt fashion. no argument there, it was a bad thing to do.

i guess what i'm considering here is the whole sequence of events leading up to said incident, as troppo has already explained.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Unco

..i guess what i'm considering here is the whole sequence of events leading up to said incident, as troppo has already explained.

And these sequence of events happen every day...on every road....in every country.

Morons in cars who cant drive/ have no confidence to drive/ scared too easily/ panic too quickly/ cant understand road rules/ drive mitsubishis ......are on the roads everyday. But raming them off the road with your truck is NOT the answer. This is my point. Its simple.

Trucks have massive blind spots, and they need to fix that. We live in a country that has traffic problems in every city. We dont have the road infrastructure to handle the current amout of vehicles.

As tempting as it might seem.....smashing Mercs with trucks is not the answer.

[rodderz]

A lot of trucks these days have a sign on them that reads
"If you can't see me, I can't see you"

I'm not sure how long the trucky has his indicator on in the tunnel crash but almost every trucky will put it on in case of blind spots and to let neighbouring road users know they want to change lanes. It is great when I was driving a truck to see other people slowing and letting me in, but also as a car driver I will let them in. By indicating it shows courtesy, almost like saying their please and thankyou's.... a lot of car drivers certainly dont do it enough

[troppo]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Troppo, i loved your response. But can you just answer this simple question that i asked on my post that you replyed to.

I'm not a truckie myself (my old man was an owner/driver for many years before he retired) so the question is theoretical but I'd like to think I'd be patient enough to wait until I can see.

I am critical of trucks doing the wrong thing as well, changing lanes like he did was clearly the final mistake here, no doubt about that. Anger often leads to careless decisions (another ugly fact of humans) and the truckie clearly let his anger get the better of him. No-one but him can be blamed for that. Indication also seems to be an afterthought.

If you look at just the crash by itself, the truck driver appears to be completely at fault, but if you look at the whole footage, you have to ask, would that crash have happened if she'd kept left? All if's but's and maybes of course, and the only answer I can think of is the more vehicles there are on the roads, the more tolerant we all have to be or things like this will happen more frequently. I certainly agree that ramming vehicles is not the answer

[GT-E]

The Truck driver was 99% to blame as he did not see the car he hit.
1% of blam may go to ACA as they might have been ****ing off the truckie, but he was behind the wheel and he hit the car.
Case closed

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Bill_R

Video Cameras! In this day and age it wouldn't be too difficult to fit them. Actually, it would be a good market.

grate idea
aint my truck and aint the only one i drive so im not going to fit the hole fleet and the company isnt going to do thous sorts of outlays for aprox 3000 trucks

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Morons in cars who cant drive/ have no confidence to drive/ scared too easily/ panic too quickly/ cant understand road rules/ drive mitsubishis ......are on the roads everyday. But raming them off the road with your truck is NOT the answer. This is my point. Its simple.

wondered what i was always doing wrong

Originally Posted by Thunder

Trucks have massive blind spots, and they need to fix that. We live in a country that has traffic problems in every city. We dont have the road infrastructure to handle the current amout of vehicles.

yep lets pull every truck of the road ....... right away
um who's payin for all this and how do we put up transport rates seeing EVERYTHING is transported at some stage to some where for the general public or do we just stop using the transport industrie coz well the mentelity ot the truckie and industrie that bring it to us all is gettin in our way all the time and smasing mercs all ova the place , or do we just expect the industrie or the truck driver to put his hand in his pocket to pay with the little that he earns for all these grate ideas that car drives have to improve all the car roads

Originally Posted by Thunder

As tempting as it might seem.....smashing Mercs with trucks is not the answer.

: but i want to

[Zed7fiddy]

I watched the whole video, the part where the truckie says " i been driving 20 years, i know what im doing, im up higher, i can see further ahead then you so i can react more"

I wanna know what the truck that ran up MY *** and caused my car to be off th eroad for FIVE WEEKS! has to say about that, same situation, was on the highway, came to a emergency stop, the truck couldnt do it, why? as he was to close!

Sure, there are many competent truckies out there, and i know ACA can twist the stories as mch as they like, but this point is true.

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by ZapXR6T

The Truck driver was 99% to blame as he did not see the car he hit.
1% of blam may go to ACA as they might have been ****ing off the truckie, but he was behind the wheel and he hit the car.
Case closed

You can back this up with experience in major motor incidents?

A lot of people with not motor accident or legal back ground apear to be pointing their fingers in the wrong direction.

Originally Posted by 84RGE

I watched the whole video, the part where the truckie says " i been driving 20 years, i know what im doing, im up higher, i can see further ahead then you so i can react more"

I wanna know what the truck that ran up MY *** and caused my car to be off th eroad for FIVE WEEKS! has to say about that, same situation, was on the highway, came to a emergency stop, the truck couldnt do it, why? as he was to close!

Sure, there are many competent truckies out there, and i know ACA can twist the stories as mch as they like, but this point is true.

Trucks have the ability to stop in less than a meter...

Seriously it is near impossible for a truck driver to keep a safe distance from the vehicle infront, as soon as he does, 5 cars pull into the space. The truck driver is forced to drive closer.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Did the truck driver in the tunnel indicate long enough? Did he?

This is my point. You guys have missed the main point of this thread!

Ye your point is that you are truck bashing, clear and simple, you are only looking at the final result and not all the factors leading up to it, sure the truck driver got frustrated and did a stupid thing but how dare you or any of you for that say that the blame lays solely with him.

I will guarantee you 110% that ony of you in the same situation would do exactly the same thing, I have had cars change lanes right in front of me without indicating whatsoever because they are fed up with the person in front of them.

Whats the point of the thread i hear you ask? Well look at post #1. Its about pointing the finger at who was to blame for the crash in the tunnel on ACA.

You guys are bringing to this discusion your "baggage" and are missing the point. I have no doubt that morons in cars are doing you a bigger injustice on the roads than what you do to them. But in this case....of this story....of this ACA fotage.......as you said XRQT, did the truckie indicate long enough before he moved over?

The ACA footage shows more than just the crash itself, if as you have done, you take the footage and disect it only from the couple of seconds before the collision then yes you would be correct.

However in any collision considerations need to be taken into account which may in some ways explain how and why a collision occured, ALL the factors that lead to the cause, in this case it is the whole trip through the tunnel in which the driver was clearly baited to do something stupid. Yes in the end he did do something stupid, we may not have said it but no where did we deny it either, and this just proves that peoples patience and common sense will wear thin when pushed to the limits.

It's obvious right from the start of the story with the 4WD driver changing from the centre lane to the right lane from the beginning of the tunnel that this was the intention of the ACA story, to get a truckie ****ed off enough to do something stupid.

THIS is why I will not blame the truck driver,THIS is why people need to look at the whole situation rather than just look at the result before making a comment, then put it into perspective rather than just spitting out utter garbage and THIS is why I have very little sympathy for most car drivers on the road, as they all seem to think like you that the car could not possibly have been at fault. And I'm not just talking about the MB either.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by troppo

Firstly, there are only 2 reasons to be in the right lane:
1. Overtaking
2. Turning right.
If you're not doing either of those two things, you have no business being in the right lane. This is law on some roads above specific speed limits or where signage applies but should be taught as common courtesy on any multi-lane road...commonly known as "keep left".

Secondly, an instant mechanical problem should be responded to by immediately pulling over to the left....Medical emergency, well that's a legitimate reason for speeding and even more reason why you shouldn't sit in the right lane "even though you are doing the speed limit". That's a crap argument....who are you to decide to hold someone up without knowing why they are in a hurry. And when you consider you have to blatanly break another law (fail to keep left) in order to be a vigilante speed enforcer, it really does make you a first-class hypocrite. If you want to enforce speed limits, head on down to the police acadamy and sign up....until then, get the f$%k left.

Thirdly, I don't know whether it's all the time, but all the cities I've ever lived in, generally speaking the right lane always travels a bit over the speed limit. Human nature dictates that if a margin for error is given, people will take it. Speeding fines kick in at a margin above the limit and although that margin is decreasing, people will always try to push it. The point here being, if you don't intend to keep up with the flow, then don't stay in the lane for extended periods (1.6 km of tunnel for instance) and hold up traffic that does.

Onto the footage....
The first shot back (well before the tunnel) from the 4wd shows her in the middle lane. The next shot back she's gone over to the right lane and shows what appears to be a Toll truck moving up. Next one she's back in the middle and being overtaken by said Toll truck. Then she jumps back in the right after being overtaken so that she's in the right lane before the tunnel. She has no reason to move into the right lane at that point, except as an exercise in frustrating other road users. Clearly, her own (middle) lane in front of her was clear, as demonstrated by the fact that the car behind her overtook her after she moved over. It seems he was a bit frustrated himself at having been blocked by the ACA precision driving team in both middle and left lanes busily filming each other...as they have been doing for the last few km...

Then she enters the tunnel. Watch carefully now...she says "I'm doing just under the speed limit" then theres a pause while she accelerates, then she says " now I'm going 80". The acceleration up to the speed limit is obvious as she pulls away from the second film crew in the wagon. So, she's in the tunnel doing the speed limit in the right lane and she decides (or is instructed by ACA?) that this is where she's going to make her stand against speeding trucks, which was the whole purpose of the exercise. This is demonstrated by the fact she ignored several opportunities over the 1.6 km to move left, and further compounded by the fact that the film crew in the second wagon had no trouble keeping pace in the left lane until just before the crash. Clearly she could've chosen the left lane and done her 80k's for almost the whole tunnel (it's the merc who actually pulls out as that lane comes up behind the first slow moving vehicle, which is the truck the second film crew gets stuck behind) but all her camera would've got there would be the other ACA film crew.....boring. No, she decided (and Martin encouraged her) that she was going to do the speed limit in the right lane and to hell with anyone who wants to get past because dammit, they shouldn't be trying even if it is just to get a bit of momentum for the uphill side....

This womans behaviour and comments is symptomatic of a control freak in action. She's insecure because she can't control how big the gap behind her is and it causes her to panic. She needs to learn that unless she is in reverse, it doesn't matter whats behind her. Her job while driving is to worry about whats in front of her, accept that the gap in front is the only one she can control, and let the person behind do the same. ACA just need shooting.

Great post troppo, agree 100%.

[4Vman]

There's an element to some of these responses that quite frankly is frightening: the acceptance, condonance and tollerance to poor or eratic driving due to frustration.
How can anyone defend the truck drivers decision to basiclly swerve left and take out the merc and defend it by suggesting it was out of frustration?
Nobody will ever convince me is ok to over react due to frustration, quite simply people need to learn patience and tollerance when driving, road rage causes way to many incidents, and if this incident was caused by reaction to frustration then its a disgrace.
Regarless of the "keep left" stuff (which i agree with) she did not force the truck to over take her, the truck could have calmly kept its distance and maintained the speed limit without delay.
I just cant for the life of me understand some of these opinions, but one things for sure, we have some serious behavioural issues amongst road users... it certainly helps explain why we have issues of safety on our roads.

[Unco]

well, if we want to concentrate on the footage from the second the truckie puts his blinker on to move the the middle lane... all i can say is that i hope this whole thing raises awareness of the blind spot on some of these trucks. i for one will make sure i'm not stupid enough to jump in that blind spot and then cry "it's his fault" after i get hit.

i laugh at the guy in the 2nd video where he says "when i got out of the car, the truck driver said sorry, i didn't see you - then the guy replied - well, if you didn't see me, why did you change lanes?"................ ummm, is it just me or does anyone else see something wrong here? if the truck driver doesn't see a car and he wants to change lanes after checking all available spots and mirrors, why wouldn't he go ahead and change lanes?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Unco

well, if we want to concentrate on the footage from the second the truckie puts his blinker on to move the the middle lane... all i can say is that i hope this whole thing raises awareness of the blind spot on some of these trucks. i for one will make sure i'm not stupid enough to jump in that blind spot and then cry "it's his fault" after i get hit.

i laugh at the guy in the 2nd video where he says "when i got out of the car, the truck driver said sorry, i didn't see you - then the guy replied - well, if you didn't see me, why did you change lanes?"................ ummm, is it just me or does anyone else see something wrong here? if the truck driver doesn't see a car and he wants to change lanes after checking all available spots and mirrors, why wouldn't he go ahead and change lanes?

I have a very simple question for you, If you cant be 100% sure its safe/clear to change lanes then should you change lanes? Remember that 75% of the merc was past the front of the truck, the truck made contact with the rear 1/4 of the car, the car driver (in the forward 50% of the car) would not have been aware of the truck suddenly changing lanes.

[Unco]

^^ what you're suggesting is that a truck that wants to change to the next lane to the left will never be able to. i've seen all the replies and i don't want to get personal, but there doesn't seem to be getting through to you. i'm not going to have a debate over something that i and others see as blatantly obvious.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Unco

^^ what you're suggesting is that a truck that wants to change to the next lane to the left will never be able to. i've seen all the replies and i don't want to get personal, but there doesn't seem to be getting through to you. i'm not going to have a debate over something that i and others see as blatantly obvious.

That's rediculous... I refuse to believe that a truck driver cannot take the time to check and ensure its safe to move left.

P.S ive spent plenty of time in trucks, so im not green in regards to their blind spots, there just needs to be some patience applied to the length of time that the indicator is used and the amount of mirror checking and visual checking done before moving left....

[The Monty]

Troppo, you are 100% correct. I dont know how you could spell it out any easier for some people. Still doesnt explain the fact she left the scene of an accident, and changed lanes without a blinker (at the end of the tunnel, after the crash). I think she deserve a fine myself. She is the kind of person who I fear on the roads.

[fordxrtfan]

Originally Posted by troppo

Firstly, there are only 2 reasons to be in the right lane:
1. Overtaking
2. Turning right.
If you're not doing either of those two things, you have no business being in the right lane. This is law on some roads above specific speed limits or where signage applies but should be taught as common courtesy on any multi-lane road...commonly known as "keep left".

Secondly, an instant mechanical problem should be responded to by immediately pulling over to the left....Medical emergency, well that's a legitimate reason for speeding and even more reason why you shouldn't sit in the right lane "even though you are doing the speed limit". That's a crap argument....who are you to decide to hold someone up without knowing why they are in a hurry. And when you consider you have to blatanly break another law (fail to keep left) in order to be a vigilante speed enforcer, it really does make you a first-class hypocrite. If you want to enforce speed limits, head on down to the police acadamy and sign up....until then, get the f$%k left.

Thirdly, I don't know whether it's all the time, but all the cities I've ever lived in, generally speaking the right lane always travels a bit over the speed limit. Human nature dictates that if a margin for error is given, people will take it. Speeding fines kick in at a margin above the limit and although that margin is decreasing, people will always try to push it. The point here being, if you don't intend to keep up with the flow, then don't stay in the lane for extended periods (1.6 km of tunnel for instance) and hold up traffic that does.

Onto the footage....
The first shot back (well before the tunnel) from the 4wd shows her in the middle lane. The next shot back she's gone over to the right lane and shows what appears to be a Toll truck moving up. Next one she's back in the middle and being overtaken by said Toll truck. Then she jumps back in the right after being overtaken so that she's in the right lane before the tunnel. She has no reason to move into the right lane at that point, except as an exercise in frustrating other road users. Clearly, her own (middle) lane in front of her was clear, as demonstrated by the fact that the car behind her overtook her after she moved over. It seems he was a bit frustrated himself at having been blocked by the ACA precision driving team in both middle and left lanes busily filming each other...as they have been doing for the last few km...

Then she enters the tunnel. Watch carefully now...she says "I'm doing just under the speed limit" then theres a pause while she accelerates, then she says " now I'm going 80". The acceleration up to the speed limit is obvious as she pulls away from the second film crew in the wagon. So, she's in the tunnel doing the speed limit in the right lane and she decides (or is instructed by ACA?) that this is where she's going to make her stand against speeding trucks, which was the whole purpose of the exercise. This is demonstrated by the fact she ignored several opportunities over the 1.6 km to move left, and further compounded by the fact that the film crew in the second wagon had no trouble keeping pace in the left lane until just before the crash. Clearly she could've chosen the left lane and done her 80k's for almost the whole tunnel (it's the merc who actually pulls out as that lane comes up behind the first slow moving vehicle, which is the truck the second film crew gets stuck behind) but all her camera would've got there would be the other ACA film crew.....boring. No, she decided (and Martin encouraged her) that she was going to do the speed limit in the right lane and to hell with anyone who wants to get past because dammit, they shouldn't be trying even if it is just to get a bit of momentum for the uphill side....

This womans behaviour and comments is symptomatic of a control freak in action. She's insecure because she can't control how big the gap behind her is and it causes her to panic. She needs to learn that unless she is in reverse, it doesn't matter whats behind her. Her job while driving is to worry about whats in front of her, accept that the gap in front is the only one she can control, and let the person behind do the same. ACA just need shooting.

Couldnt agree more, Well said!

[Unco]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Troppo, you are 100% correct. I dont know how you could spell it out any easier for some people. Still doesnt explain the fact she left the scene of an accident, and changed lanes without a blinker (at the end of the tunnel, after the crash). I think she deserve a fine myself. She is the kind of person who I fear on the roads.

if you watch carefully, you'll see that she does in fact indicate to move to the middle lane... a bit too late i reckon, thanks for creating a very high risk situation. lucky nobody was killed.

[Unco]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's rediculous... I refuse to believe that a truck driver cannot take the time to check and ensure its safe to move left.

P.S ive spent plenty of time in trucks, so im not green in regards to their blind spots, there just needs to be some patience applied to the length of time that the indicator is used and the amount of mirror checking and visual checking done before moving left....

i've already covered this in a post in this thread. i refuse to repeat the same post on every page.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Troppo, i loved your response. But can you just answer this simple question that i asked on my post that you replyed to.




I will say it again. I understand the frustration in being held up by slower drivers in the overtaking lane, but i WONT BLAME THEM if i fail to overtake properly and crash into someone else who "i did not see".

My overtaking is the responsibility of me....not the slower driver.

Your are very critical on my point abuot her being in the "wrong" lane.....why arent you as critical on trucks changing lanes when they cant see where they are going.

I wont change lanes if i'm not 100% sure i'm clear. there are ways to make sure you check that blindspot is clear. You can back off for a second, which would allow a car in your blind spot to appear out the front, or speed up and get that spot back in your mirror. The trucks i spend most of my time in have the lower peeper windows and very big mirrors and blindspot mirrors and have virtually eliminated the blind spot. When i drive the Argosy, i drive differently because of the blind spot it has.

[pHaT`eL]

That ACA crash was a bit even sided if you ask me. The Mercedes would of been able to see there was a truck to his right, and should of waited till he was a bit more in front to change lanes. The same thing could be said about the truck.
Its just a crash, they happen every day, ACA just like to blow things out of proportion.
The heavy crash that happened earlier was just a freak crash, they do happen. Every major tunnel in the world has had similar happen.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

the truck could have calmly kept its distance and maintained the speed limit without delay.

This is all the proof I need to see you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

You are the sort of person on this forum that simply likes to throw your unwanted and unnecessary 2 cents into every discussion or argument just to see how much of a rise you can get out of people. Your comments are quite obviously baseless, pointless and only designed to further inflame some of the people in this thread.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

You are the sort of person on this forum that simply likes to throw your unwanted and unnecessary 2 cents into every discussion or argument just to see how much of a rise you can get out of people. Your comments are quite obviously baseless, pointless and only designed to further inflame some of the people in this thread.

Thats funny.........i thought you were talking about yourself.

It would help to keep sensible and civilised, like most of us have tried. Its this kind of reaction that perpetuates the "truckie" stereotype. Go and calm down.

We all understand your frustration in people not keeping left. But what is more dangerous, not keeping left or trucks overtaking unsafely?
The crash in the tunnel was caused by an un-safe overtaking manuver, yes we agree that other factors contributed, but it was still a bad overtaking manuver that could have killed.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by schmidty

I wont change lanes if i'm not 100% sure i'm clear. there are ways to make sure you check that blindspot is clear. You can back off for a second, which would allow a car in your blind spot to appear out the front, or speed up and get that spot back in your mirror. The trucks i spend most of my time in have the lower peeper windows and very big mirrors and blindspot mirrors and have virtually eliminated the blind spot. When i drive the Argosy, i drive differently because of the blind spot it has.

Thankyou! a decent and common-sense approach from someone with FIRST HAND experience.
I have many friends who run trucks and all of them have the same sensible and intelligent approach to safety and courtesy as yourself.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by troppo

Firstly, there are only 2 reasons to be in the right lane:
1. Overtaking
2. Turning right.
If you're not doing either of those two things, you have no business being in the right lane. This is law on some roads above specific speed limits or where signage applies but should be taught as common courtesy on any multi-lane road...commonly known as "keep left".

True but in the tunnel where it is darker, some people have their lights on and some don't (makes it that bit harder to be aware of all the cars around you) and 90% of people are watching their speedo so they don't get booked by the permanent speed cameras I think it is safer to change lanes as little as possible. There is virtually always a heap of traffic going through there, so all 3 lanes are full of cars going approximately at the speed limit. Not to mention you would struggle to save more than 20sec no matter what you did - big whoop, is it worth it?

This incident was unfortunate as both vehicles changed lanes at virtually the same time, which shouldn't cause a problem in itself but when one or both drivers change suddenly and without looking properly it is easy for it to end in tears. I've had to abort a lane change a few times myself because another car was coming into it from the other lane.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Thats funny.........i thought you were talking about yourself.

Yes, and you're just as much a comedian as 4Vman, but then again you two must be related, him being 4V and you being JG.

It would help to keep sensible and civilised, like most of us have tried.

Oh don't worry I tried, believe me I tried, but when people who have absolutely no idea other than as he has now stated, he has 'friends' who drive trucks, where initially he had so much experience.

It would be easy if people like this didn't attack the sensibility of drivers and assume to know how they think, before you tell me how wrong I am read this

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's rediculous... I refuse to believe that a truck driver cannot take the time to check and ensure its safe to move left.

Of course we take the time, often more time than is really necessary, but there is absolutely nothing that can be done to guard against car drivers who see a big gap and squeeze into it, mindless of any one else that migth be lining up to it

Originally Posted by 4Vman

P.S ive spent plenty of time in trucks, so im not green in regards to their blind spots,

oh ye and there is his intial comment about all of his so called experience in trucks, from the passenger seat no doubt where the blind spots are almost nill in comparison, to which he later admits

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I have many friends who run trucks

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by MeLLy

nice to see your such an expert to, obviously the driver of the mercedes did a head check quickly because the truck entered into the lane maybe a few seconds after him & correctly when the mercedes driver did his head check no1 was in that lane

Listen, Sweetheart. I was driving trucks interstate back when your mother was washing your filthy nappies. I never claimed to be an expert, however, Your contribution to this thread amuses me. As you have nothing sensible to contribute, am I to assume that you only posted to antagonize me? Well guess what, it didn’t work.

XRQTR, I appreciate your posts, however, I don’t know why you bother going into such detail. These people are clearly anti-truck and there’s nothing you can do to change it. Let's face it. They won’t listen to reason or common sense. You’d have a better chance trying to explain Pythagoras’s theorem to a brick wall.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Yes, and you're just as much a comedian as 4Vman, but then again you two must be related, him being 4V and you being JG...

Keep perpetuating your stereotype mate........im laughing my pants off tonight on the lounge, with a pina-colada in one hand whilst watching an Elton John video. :

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Keep perpetuating you stereotype mate........im laughing my pants off tonight on the lounge, with a pina-colada in one hand whilst watching an Elton John video. :

So you like Elton John. What’s in the other hand? :ymca: