Holden cuts off communication with Federal Government

[EBII Fairmont]

[QUOTE=See I dont think losing Toyota is anywhere near as bad as losing Ford and Holden, because they don't do any R&D in this country. They just whack together Camrys that are entirely designed and developed overseas. They don't provide the high skilled engineering and design jobs on the level that Ford and Holden have. All those talented people who gave us the Falcon and Commodore will have no choice but to look overseas for a similar level of employment.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about Holden, but ford aren't totally packing it in. The R&D sector will still operate out of Broady and there will be test cars sent through the proving grounds. There will be all engineers here and no plants.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Well it is still tax payers money to help them keep goin.

Yeah, a whole .38 cents a week or something like that...that holden employees also pay...

Taxes that Holden pay...

lets say Holden sell 42000 commodores a yea at a average price of $35 000.

Stamp duty is about, 3.5%, then GST, that's $198 450 000 in tax revenue from new commodore sales alone...cruze adds roughly $90 125 000

Hence why its a co-investment, the government makes its money back for keeping the company afloat.


Its not rocket surgery...although it might as well be.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

See I dont think losing Toyota is anywhere near as bad as losing Ford and Holden, because they don't do any R&D in this country. They just whack together Camrys that are entirely designed and developed overseas. They don't provide the high skilled engineering and design jobs on the level that Ford and Holden have. All those talented people who gave us the Falcon and Commodore will have no choice but to look overseas for a similar level of employment.

Hey, um, look at this.


Toyota Technical Center Australia

[pottery beige]

some people are like computers

you need to punch the information in

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Yeah, a whole .38 cents a week or something like that...that holden employees also pay...

Taxes that Holden pay...

lets say Holden sell 42000 commodores a yea at a average price of $35 000.

Stamp duty is about, 3.5%, then GST, that's $198 450 000 in tax revenue from new commodore sales alone...cruze adds roughly $90 125 000

Hence why its a co-investment, the government makes its money back for keeping the company afloat.


Its not rocket surgery...although it might as well be.

And in this great wonder land of yours. Does the government not pay any money for corolla, mazda 3, landcruiser, ranger production etc, but get exactly the same gst and stamp duty benefits as the commodore or cruze???

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

And in this great wonder land of yours. Does the government not pay any money for corolla, mazda 3, landcruiser, ranger production etc, but get exactly the same gst and stamp duty benefits as the commodore or cruze???

Yes, they also pay a lowly 5% of tax on all sales that more then covers the investment into supporting Australian jobs, keeping component manufactures open etc.



Next!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

And in this great wonder land of yours. Does the government not pay any money for corolla, mazda 3, landcruiser, ranger production etc, but get exactly the same gst and stamp duty benefits as the commodore or cruze???

And???

Of course they get a benefit from anything that is sold with a GST etc attached to it. There are many more added benefits with keeping production going other than just GST. The money that is recouped is well worth it. Its just that many have blinkers on and just see the money going in. Not the benefits that comes out of it.

[fte50]

Some will just continue to remain blind and negatively debate any topic just for the sake of it despite the obvious - sad really, either not much life or not much brains.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

some people are like computers

you need to punch the information in

Quote of the century

[GASWAGON]

Why should the government give any more money to a company that has already cut 100 jobs, told the media that its sales are not enough to re coup manufacturing costs and basically the aussie car industry is just about dead?

[fte50]

do the maths

[burnz]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

some people are like computers

you need to punch the information in

you name wouldn't be Jet Li, would it?

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by fte50

Some will just continue to remain blind and negatively debate any topic just for the sake of it despite the obvious - sad really, either not much life or not much brains.

id say the majority of australians dont care how the numbers stack up thats why support for money to holden is in the toilet so i guess its people have no ***** to give really.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by fte50

do the maths

Have done the maths many times. It costs Australians roughly $500 million in direct subsidies and $1 billion in import tariffs, to protect the circa 15,000 people employed at the manufacturers and suppliers. Its only $100,000 per job.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by velvet

A 2012 report by the University of Adelaide’s Professor Barry Burgan estimated closing Holden’s Elizabeth plant would result in South Australian tax revenue losses of between $25 and $80 million; $133 million in wage losses; and serious employment losses amongst auto industry suppliers. Holden is estimated to contribute directly and indirectly up to 16,000 jobs in South Australia, and up to A$1.5 billion in state GDP.

Thanks velvet...I knew the numbers were far and above any foreseeable boosts Fromm governments....but for some unknown reason this single most important fact escapes the people who be....amazing the quality of descisions that are made in this country.

I've noticed some mention that other far higher subsidised countries like Germany , simply have far more people and sales. It's been worked out to scale to suit our size and products and it's simply clear clut by figures alone. Some daft people out there

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by fte50

Although reports look grim, hopefully closure wont happen. The industry is so volatile its hard to speculate and just like Melbourne weather can see a series of patterns in 1 season.
3yrs notice is long but gives good pre-warning, at this major level though Holden just like any responsible corporate should give suppliers enough notice to ensure they have the lead time to restructure their business model to remain viable - although many wont survive, there will be some that can restructure or move into new ventures and stay afloat.

Just like ford has responsibly done!!

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by fte50

Some will just continue to remain blind and negatively debate any topic just for the sake of it despite the obvious - sad really, either not much life or not much brains.

Two sides to that coin....some blindly ignore terrible business casses, public lying/firing and basically near identicle tactics which lead to the USA government just about buying them out to keep them afloat. Yes I'm talking about Holden and how low there methods have been of late...to us...the public, their own workers and even the hand that was prepared to look at feeding them.

It's so far gone its a joke anyone thinks Holden can gain any respectability from this.
My opinion only!

[Hulsty]

Its good to see people starting to finally realise the figures behind manufacturing and how much in contributes to the economy and how the co-contribution schemes work, the government is not giving money away for no return on investment. As mentioned, when they are all gone, watch state revenue fall... less money for other projects and services, cuts will come.

Originally Posted by EF_6

Why should the government give any more money to a company that has already cut 100 jobs, told the media that its sales are not enough to re coup manufacturing costs and basically the aussie car industry is just about dead?

So any company that needs government subsidies to survive should not get anymore money and close up? So private schools? Private hospitals? etc They shouldnt get anymore money right?

[BHDOGS]

No private schools shouldn't get money public ones should get more

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

No private schools shouldn't get money public ones should get more

Well they get 7 billion dollars per year.

[BHDOGS]

Yup thanks to old Howard he really screwed the public schools

[b0son]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Well they get 7 billion dollars per year.

Fine by me. I pay tax, my child has a right to the same educational spending as a public school student. Its not like I can opt out of that component of tax.

You cant argue for user pays while you simultaneously expect the user to contribute toward something they're not using.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by b0son

" Its not like I can opt out of that component of tax"

But you are opting out of the public system which your taxes are paying for. There is a reason you are choosing the private system. In most cases it is better. That is why the public system needs more funding and an overhaul so that you don't feel the need to send your children to a private school.

Originally Posted by b0son

"You cant argue for user pays while you simultaneously expect the user to contribute toward something they're not using."

There are a lot of things that our taxes go towards and we are not using. That's life.

Anyway back on topic-

I'm starting to think Holden & Toyota will pull up stumps before Ford do.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Anyway back on topic-

I'm starting to think Holden & Toyota will pull up stumps before Ford do.

Toyota seem to be soldering on with the next model at this time. If the dollar drops then they're happy to continue if the info I have been provided is correct.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Have done the maths many times. It costs Australians roughly $500 million in direct subsidies and $1 billion in import tariffs, to protect the circa 15,000 people employed at the manufacturers and suppliers. Its only $100,000 per job.

Your numbers are wrong, do some research on how many people are employed by the automotive industry (including components, tier 2 and 3 suppliers) See post #47

Also read some of the previous posts on the amount the automotive industry contributes to the SA state alone

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by SB076

Your numbers are wrong, do some research on how many people are employed by the automotive industry (including components, tier 2 and 3 suppliers) See post #47

Also read some of the previous posts on the amount the automotive industry contributes to the SA state alone

Did you read the report? Now discounting the fact that its on thr sa government website ( who have a slight need to hide the "against " argument"), it says Holden account for roughly 5800 jobs. But it also clearly states that 18% plus of these jobs are in retail functions etc. Ie when holden imports a car, and they sell it at a south australian dealership, then its a Holden job. So take it down to local manufacturing for Holden supports 5000 jobs, and work out that Holden make roughly 1/3 of the cars made in Australia, then 3 x 5000 is pretty basic maths.

And for the record, an indirect job is just a term to fluff up a report.

[nstg8a]

I'm sure those working in those indirect jobs would love your description of their jobs as 'fluff'

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Toyota seem to be soldering on with the next model at this time. If the dollar drops then they're happy to continue if the info I have been provided is correct.

And what if the dollar does'nt drop?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by EF_6

And what if the dollar does'nt drop?

I promise you and bet my house on it ..... It WILL go down ..... then back up ...... then back down ..... then back up.

With a business this large they have it covered either way ......

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Did you read the report? Now discounting the fact that its on thr sa government website ( who have a slight need to hide the "against " argument"), it says Holden account for roughly 5800 jobs. But it also clearly states that 18% plus of these jobs are in retail functions etc. Ie when holden imports a car, and they sell it at a south australian dealership, then its a Holden job. So take it down to local manufacturing for Holden supports 5000 jobs, and work out that Holden make roughly 1/3 of the cars made in Australia, then 3 x 5000 is pretty basic maths.

And for the record, an indirect job is just a term to fluff up a report.

....... thats scary thinking. Great to have an opinion on these matters but when there are factual figures and they are so misinterpreted with so many missing pieces to make a valid negative statement .... well it just becomes a little bit frightening.

To only see the amount going in, then going 'lalalala' with fingers in ones ears when it is very clear the money regained, is a sad state of affairs and is another reason there will be less and less manufacturing in Aus.

Govco supports all business, big and small. They need to. Either directly or indirectly. If they did not the place would be in more of a right royal mess.

Reminds me of the Anti Grand Prix crowd ......

[BroadyFord]

Happened to be talking to someone in politics this evening (albeit Victorian) who seems to believe that the government (who is of the same party of this person) will come to their senses and not let the industry die. This person also does not think Holden will shut the doors any time soon.