New Submarines

[mcnews]

Double post

[mcnews]

Wow who could not know about the Zero..... Slaps forehead....

Anyways, as much as we talk about our O boats etc. going in and taking photos of props.... You have to remember such things in war are suicide missions, pure and simple.

That is the job of a sub, get in and take out the high value unit.

But as soon as the sub attacks, via virtually any means, it is a goner. Once it attacks it outs itself and all the other ships and aircraft around the HVU will prosecute it until death, there would never be any escape.

Thus it is a total loss mission every time in reality when it comes to playing the game for real.

[Bossxr8]

Duh, of course I know the Zero, I was pointing out Mitsubishi never released a Zero car in honour of the plane.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Japanese named it after the Soryu to honour it. And they have never officially apologised for their WWII attrocities. They just pretend WWII never happened.

Mitsubishi is a brand, they never released a Mitsubishi Zero.

So?
Have the brits apologised for all the "colonising" they did? the French?
The Americans for all they do?

They have a day and a shrine where they honour their war dead like all nations.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Wow who could not know about the Zero..... Slaps forehead....

Anyways, as much as we talk about our O boats etc. going in and taking photos of props.... You have to remember such things in war are suicide missions, pure and simple.

That is the job of a sub, get in and take out the high value unit.

But as soon as the sub attacks, via virtually any means, it is a goner. Once it attacks it outs itself and all the other ships and aircraft around the HVU will prosecute it until death, there would never be any escape.

Thus it is a total loss mission every time in reality when it comes to playing the game for real.

Last submarine action and sinking of a warship was in 1982. Submarine escaped and returned to base. dive fast, dive deep and get lost in the ocean thermal cline so sonar fails to detect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2480241.stm

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Last submarine action and sinking of a warship was in 1982. Submarine escaped and returned to base. dive fast, dive deep and get lost in the ocean thermal cline so sonar fails to detect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2480241.stm

The Belgrano sinking was the most controversial event of the Falklands War. Many people, both inside and outside the British Parliament said it was an unnecessary use of force - the ship was outside the exclusion zone and apparently sailing away from the Falklands.

I cannot understand the mentality of people who cry "excessive use of force/unfair/illegal" when there is a war on. In a sub versus warship engagement between two parties that are engaged in, you know, frikkin war, especially when it is in the region where all the shooting is going on. What was the General Belgrano doing there? What was HMS Conquerer doing there? They were supporting operations of their respective armed forces. They were both warships.

Imagine what would have been said if the British had gone ahead with their plans to bomb Argentinian naval bases and airbases with their Vulcan bombers.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Last submarine action and sinking of a warship was in 1982. Submarine escaped and returned to base. dive fast, dive deep and get lost in the ocean thermal cline so sonar fails to detect.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2480241.stm

Bit different to trying to get out of a carrier group :-) Especially in open ocean.
There is next to no chance a submarine would survive more than 30 minutes after making an attack on a carrier group, as soon as it attacks it reveals itself. It would have a torpedo dropped on it from the air within minutes and as soon as that torpedoes six minute run time would be out another one would be hitting the water, along with a pattern of a few dozen active and passive sonobuoys etc. immediately in the vicinity then in fields across any escape route, there would be no escape. Carrier groups also generally have two submarines with them also of course that can be positioned below or in the layer also. Same as the torpedoes can be told to only search in a particular layer etc.

[CoupeKing]

If the Sub manages to infiltrate the escort group and sink a carrier and gets sunk on the counter-attack, job done.

[mcnews]

Agreed, it would be thought of a total loss mission, but worthwhile as taking out the High Value Unit is the end game.

[Road_Warrior]

This is why the Russians developed certain weapons and tactics to defeat USN carrier battle groups. They determined during the cold war that it would take a regimental-sized bomber attack (they call them "Regiments" but I think the western term would be bomber wing) to penetrate the defences of the carrier group and sink the carrier, but they'd lose most of the attacking aircraft. They then developed a certain class of submarine to fire heavyweight supersonic anti ship missiles in large numbers to take out the escorts so that the sub could then move in for the kill.

[mcnews]

First missile launch, again, helicopters and fixed wing would be dropping torpedoes all over it. Even if the missiles had waypoints etc. and were fired from 500 miles out (sub would require its own air asset support for targeting information this far out) launch point would be identified after a maximum of two or three launches. Not to mention that carrier group CAP aircraft taking out the missiles on the way in or the BPDMS defences etc. probably taking out the majority of the missiles before they penetrated the screen. But yes, again soon after launch, sub would be prosecuted by air assets quickly, surrounded by sonobuoy screen etc. etc.

[Polyal]

Can you get drone subs yet? Just like one really fancy R/C torpedo.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I cannot understand the mentality of people who cry "excessive use of force/unfair/illegal" when there is a war on. In a sub versus warship engagement between two parties that are engaged in, you know, frikkin war, especially when it is in the region where all the shooting is going on. What was the General Belgrano doing there? What was HMS Conquerer doing there? They were supporting operations of their respective armed forces. They were both warships.

Imagine what would have been said if the British had gone ahead with their plans to bomb Argentinian naval bases and airbases with their Vulcan bombers.

If the Brits could have they would have, unfortunately the Vulcans (even with an armada of planes providing in-air refuelling) just had the range to drop a bomb or two on the unsuspecting Falkland Island airstrip. The physiological message was received...

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Can you get drone subs yet? Just like one really fancy R/C torpedo.

They would need floating antenna and thus probably also need to transmit back in some way from time to time perhaps to report position or condition etc. thus would be picked up and killed quickly as any transmission would be picked up by EW from long distance. All the old school (and probably a lot of the stuff still largely in use) anti-surface torpedoes were indeed wire guided though, and effectively launched from the sub with a trailing wire and steered home to target from the sub via that wire

[BHDOGS]

Good to see people are finally waking up about this bull**** gov and there broken promises and idiotic ideas and pointing out how ******* retarded buying jap subs is

[pottery beige]

this is heating up

good

[pottery beige]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1227090685078

[cheap]

A senate committee (majority being anti-government senators) aided by the AWU who are looking at the prospects of losing memberships and millions in union fees. Business as usual for the usual suspects.

[pottery beige]

you really haven't much of an idea of what's going on

cool

[Road_Warrior]

They have not ruled out a limited tender so just one bidder will win the contract.

LOL, it's not a tender then is it if only one entity is invited to respond! *** morons

[cheap]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

you really haven't much of an idea of what's going on

cool

Go on, by all means share your wisdom

[pottery beige]

I'm all for Australian manufacturing, development of those skills in this sector is extremely complex and specialized

[cheap]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

I'm all for Australian manufacturing, development of those skills in this sector is extremely complex and specialized

Great feel good motherly words. Except that's not the way life works. What is the point of spending +$30 billion on 5 submarines, when we can have 10 subs for $15 billion. The $15 billion saved going towards schools, hospitals, roads, community, paying off the debt and so on.

Instead we have a bunch of thugs (AWU) protesting because their cash cow money stream is at risk.

Finally what makes you think ASC could remotely get "son of Collins" correct, just look at their achievements!

(btw those numbers are just and example - but you should get the point)

[jpblue1000]

Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)
'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'



JP

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by cheap

Great feel good motherly words. Except that's not the way life works. What is the point of spending +$30 billion on 5 submarines, when we can have 10 subs for $15 billion. The $15 billion saved going towards schools, hospitals, roads, community, paying off the debt and so on.

Instead we have a bunch of thugs (AWU) protesting because their cash cow money stream is at risk.

Finally what makes you think ASC could remotely get "son of Collins" correct, just look at their achievements!

(btw those numbers are just and example - but you should get the point)

It may come as a surprise to you, but a large number of the guys out front of the senate were non union - just ordinary hard working Australians concerned about their industry / futures - food on table stuff

first build of anything as complex as these projects will always be problematic ( development of build, development of skill base and rolling changes - which would be extremely difficult with an off the shelf foreign built project)

15bill for ten subs is tripping money - can't see that not blowing out.. lol

[cheap]

Just ordinary people. Who happened to be there by pure coincidence in front of a megaphone wielding ALP (ex-union hack) senator Penny Wong leading the banshee!

You did read your article didn't you? The part which says "Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union representatives yesterday rallied against the potential loss of jobs."

Like I said the AWU grave train is at risk...

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Just ordinary people. Who happened to be there by pure coincidence in front of a megaphone wielding ALP (ex-union hack) senator Penny Wong leading the banshee!

You did read your article didn't you? The part which says "Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union representatives yesterday rallied against the potential loss of jobs."

Like I said the AWU grave train is at risk...

That it might be, and how dare anyone stand in the way of people protecting their jobs.
Especially when the reason for the job risk is based on daft politics and economic rationalism, over common sense and a sensible investment in the future.
I agree we cant build submarines as well as the established manufacturers, yet, but investing in our ability and capacity wont be money wasted, will employ locals rather than foreigners and will up-skill many from designers, engineers, managers, welders, drivers, crane operators and the rest.
Lets not build a future Australia which does not invest in itself, just buy if from someone who has built one before or employ someone who has a foreign education rather than educating our own kids, Sure we save money today but damn the future to a worse fate than we already have.
And this isn't an idealist leftist communist Idea. It is founded squarely in sensible economics 101.

JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

That it might be, and how dare anyone stand in the way of people protecting their jobs.
Especially when the reason for the job risk is based on daft politics and economic rationalism, over common sense and a sensible investment in the future.
I agree we cant build submarines as well as the established manufacturers, yet, but investing in our ability and capacity wont be money wasted, will employ locals rather than foreigners and will up-skill many from designers, engineers, managers, welders, drivers, crane operators and the rest.
Lets not build a future Australia which does not invest in itself, just buy if from someone who has built one before or employ someone who has a foreign education rather than educating our own kids, Sure we save money today but damn the future to a worse fate than we already have.
And this isn't an idealist leftist communist Idea. It is founded squarely in sensible economics 101.

JP

Oh gosh, the country in 6 short years went from great surplus to $600-700 BILLION debt and you have the audacity to lecture people on sensible economics 101! You need help.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Oh gosh, the country in 6 short years went from great surplus to $600-700 BILLION debt and you have the audacity to lecture people on sensible economics 101! You need help.

I wasn't in the country during those years so claim no responsibility or care. I believe You were so your fault! nah nah nah!
And what the last government did is of no concern now. the current government is making excuses oh I mean decisions about the future of a construction project. One which if it is shipped off shore will cost us less in the short run but more in the long term. Will not benefit a sector or a community and even the lucky state.
Why are you afraid to invest in Australia, in Australians, why must we always send our money overseas rather than upskill here.
Why cheap, why!

yours Lovingly JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I wasn't in the country during those years so claim no responsibility or care. I believe You were so your fault! nah nah nah!
And what the last government did is of no concern now. the current government is making excuses oh I mean decisions about the future of a construction project. One which if it is shipped off shore will cost us less in the short run but more in the long term. Will not benefit a sector or a community and even the lucky state.
Why are you afraid to invest in Australia, in Australians, why must we always send our money overseas rather than upskill here.
Why cheap, why!

yours Lovingly JP

Oh that's right you were over in the UK helping with their debt crisis, happy and content with your work you came back to the mothership to continue your work. Based on your economic rhetoric your personal bank accounts, P&L and assets must be something to behold.