Electricity prices have killed the economy.

[glimmerman]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

And THAT folks is an example of what our nancyboy education system is filling our youngs noggins with!.. Propaganda and tripe..
Honestly.. This brainwashing unsubstantiated hogwash really gives me the *****!
Glimmerman.. Someone above called you a hypocrite..
Some truth in that I reckon, going by your sig??

I actually believe we are experiencing a natural climate cycle that our planet goes through, why did all the ice melt millions of years ago? No cars back then.
But I also believe as much as there is natural climate cycles at play, human induced climate change is also having an effect and true.
I also graduated from our education system well before global warming was even discussed, so no propaganda was fed to me through that.
As for hypocrite because my signature says I have a modified car? How is that hypocritical?
I drive my car about 6 times a year because its always getting something modified and not drive able.
I take the train to work every day, I walk most places because it keeps you fit. I turn off all power points that are not in use (not to save the planet but to save money - my lifestyle will make no difference though, because unless everyone did it its not even 0.00000001 percent of a change in the scale of things).
But I still do my bit. I'm looking to convert my car to run ethanol also because its cheaper and it also leaves less green house emissions though it still leaves some.
So how am I a hypocrite?

[glimmerman]

Originally Posted by ute83

Another hypocrite.

How does explaining the science behind global warming make me a hypocrite? That's just like you explaining to me how an apple falling from a tree is due to gravity and then I label you a hypocrite?
If you have nothing to add that is constructive and adds to the debate then go away because you're an absolute waste of time

[rog xc]

Now that's funny.. An internet discussion is a debate?

I do believe in Climate change, but I don't believe in global warming because of industry per se. Remember the big hole in the ozone that was going to see all life end? Remember "El Nino effect"? These things are all scare tactics brought up by money men to sell "ecological & green" goods to the masses & take the focus off the fact that what this generation does wont make a difference. It would take generations to effect change, & from what we hear that change will be forced upon by governments etc, due to the decline of fossil fuels & there own self serving interests.

[UberKnee]

Global warming is real, but its not 100% the fault of evil mankind as we're led to believe. The planet has naturally gone through cycles for millenia. Millions of years before man was even a fish the planet went through warming and cooling phases.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by glimmerman

I actually believe we are experiencing a natural climate cycle that our planet goes through, why did all the ice melt millions of years ago? No cars back then.
But I also believe as much as there is natural climate cycles at play, human induced climate change is also having an effect and true.
I also graduated from our education system well before global warming was even discussed, so no propaganda was fed to me through that.
As for hypocrite because my signature says I have a modified car? How is that hypocritical?
I drive my car about 6 times a year because its always getting something modified and not drive able.
I take the train to work every day, I walk most places because it keeps you fit. I turn off all power points that are not in use (not to save the planet but to save money - my lifestyle will make no difference though, because unless everyone did it its not even 0.00000001 percent of a change in the scale of things).
But I still do my bit. I'm looking to convert my car to run ethanol also because its cheaper and it also leaves less green house emissions though it still leaves some.
So how am I a hypocrite?

You've forgotten the fact that climate change scientists acknowledge we aren't the only factor and it's a natural process.
The issue is that we are significantly speeding that process up, and if we want to survive on this planet indefinitely, we should be slowing that natural process down.

[onfire]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

The economy is on its **** because Australians are over payed, debt acquiring know it all's who think being king is owning a property portfolio at the detriment of every struggling family just trying to keep up the payments on a mortgage they should never have been given, on a asset which is quickly in decline that they paid twice the real value of.
All the while taking advantage of equity mate to have 2 new Fords in the driveway to qualify their opinion of Fords demise on a Ford forum all the while putting down anyone who wont spend their hard earned for the privilege.

Now, have I left anyone out .

I think we can argue about Climate Change and electricity prices till the cows come home, but this guy has pretty much nailed it some where in his post.. at least referring to personally " controlling the controllables " .

We can't do much about electricity prices, we can't do a whole lot about Emission trading Schemes ( except vote Lib. ) and there's a lot of things effecting the economy that are out of our control.

But we can take responsibility for our own spending and our own debt and the choices we make.

Simply live within your means.

Do the simply math, if your weekly house hold income minus your mortgage, car repayments, load repayments = much less than you need to support your family ( ie, the cost of living, food, bills ).. you're in trouble.

Take some note from the United States housing bubble.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by Lotte

You've forgotten the fact that climate change scientists acknowledge we aren't the only factor and it's a natural process.
The issue is that we are significantly speeding that process up, and if we want to survive on this planet indefinitely, we should be slowing that natural process down.

Thats how it should be, problem is the way its presented in mainstream culture through news, TV, movies, etc. is that its 100% our fault. Twisting the truth to spread fear.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Thats how it should be, problem is the way its presented in mainstream culture through news, TV, movies, etc. is that its 100% our fault. Twisting the truth to spread fear.

Really? So you mean people would rather believe an end of the world movie, than a scientific paper?
I think that's a societal issue, not a scientific one.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Lotte

You've forgotten the fact that climate change scientists acknowledge we aren't the only factor and it's a natural process.
The issue is that we are significantly speeding that process up, and if we want to survive on this planet indefinitely, we should be slowing that natural process down.

Yes I will agree that human interference with natural processes is causing enormous problems.

For hundreds of thousands of years human beings improved because the stupid and the lazy all died off due to them doing stupid things or not looking after themselves.

Now we interfere with that process by dumbing everything down to allow stupid people to be able to do things that they really should not be doing and allowing anyone who is lazy to just exist parasitically without contributing to the good of the species.

I will believe in "climate change" when the academics and government apparatchiks move out of their marble castles in the cities to sustainable low impact offices in regional areas rather than use it as an excuse to create a tax to pay for more marble castles in their ever expanding personal empires....

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Lotte

You've forgotten the fact that climate change scientists acknowledge we aren't the only factor and it's a natural process.
The issue is that we are significantly speeding that process up, and if we want to survive on this planet indefinitely, we should be slowing that natural process down.

It would seem that you missed (or regard as an inconvenient truth) the FACTS.

Scientists are going to need another ten years of satellite observations before they can determine whether or not the rate at which ice sheets are melting is a result of global warming, a new study said. The rate at which ice sheets are melting is not enough for scientists to conclude that it is due to global warming.

Published Monday (15/7/2013) in the journal Nature Geoscience, it is not yet clear if the melting of ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland is due to global warming or if it is simply a fluctuation in the climate. Either way, experts said in the report they will need another decade to determine.

Climate scientists are still hesitant to credit the loss of mass in the ice sheets to global warming. The researches said they still need another ten years of satellite data to be able to predict what the glaciers and the ocean level will look like at the end of the century.

[gtfpv]

i really wish i knew the answer to this climate change stuff . i think the evidence suggests that it's a crock , and a volcano can pollute the atmosphere many times over more than man , and there is something like 2000 active volcano's on the planet . besides ice studies have found different carbon content over different millenniums ande we're still here .
i'm calling a crock .
on the other hand , we do pollute the air , and i agree trying to clean it would be a good idea for our lungs .
oh and going back to electricity prices . when people arent policed , crime flourishes . i'm betting that we'd be paying what we are now even if someone had thought up this climate change thing .

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by Lotte

Really? So you mean people would rather believe an end of the world movie, than a scientific paper?
I think that's a societal issue, not a scientific one.

That's what I said, in the mainstream (which is not scientific papers, average joe doesn't read those) all we get is snippets and often biased takes on things. The way climate change is presented to us by avenues that are actually heard by the vast majority (not by the scientists themselves) is that climate change is 100% mans doing, which is false. There needs to be more reporting/information given to the general public of how things really are. Like boat people, we take in something like 0.9% of worldwide asylum seekers, countries like Syria take in 20 times that yet boat people is a huge issue in this country when it shouldn't be. Climate change is a natural occurrence sped up by mankind, its however reported as being all mankind's fault. We can slow it down, but the doom saying of we're all scum is unnecessary.

[KIWI-1]

Maybe something like the following?

Scientists think that humans may be contributing to Global Warming. It will take centuries for us to prove if we are correct. By then it may be too late. In the meantime, we think the following will help reduce the risk:
...
...
etc.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

That's what I said, in the mainstream (which is not scientific papers, average joe doesn't read those) all we get is snippets and often biased takes on things. The way climate change is presented to us by avenues that are actually heard by the vast majority (not by the scientists themselves) is that climate change is 100% mans doing, which is false. There needs to be more reporting/information given to the general public of how things really are. Like boat people, we take in something like 0.9% of worldwide asylum seekers, countries like Syria take in 20 times that yet boat people is a huge issue in this country when it shouldn't be. Climate change is a natural occurrence sped up by mankind, its however reported as being all mankind's fault. We can slow it down, but the doom saying of we're all scum is unnecessary.

Urgh, yeah. I misread what you wrote. Agree 100%. Although, I'm just also one of those people who goes to the source of information to find out the truth, and just think everyone bloody should to, and stop being so damn ******* lazy.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Maybe something like the following?

Scientists think that humans may be contributing to Global Warming. It will take centuries for us to prove if we are correct. By then it may be too late. In the meantime, we think the following will help reduce the risk:
...
...
etc.

Is this similar to how we THINK gravity is real? I do agree to a point, but the facts and evidence are there (they were in the posted on the previous page).

[PepeLePew]

"Electricity prices have killed the economy"

Reminder of the topic of this thread. Climate change discussions are a endless loop based on our limited knowledge, snippets of data and immature science. You can choose to believe or disbelieve, however neither camp has facts or evidence to 'prove' their beliefs conclusively and neither camp own the topic. Individuals are entitled to their opinions in either direction. We operate under the usual human condition of engaging in it as if it is real, we have a problem Houston. Which may or may not be appropriate in this case.

None of the above represents my position on it. My position is, lets talk about electricity bills.

[monte.b]

Our power bills have halved since the last kid left ,so what does that tell you about the younger generation,it was funny really ,like he had 3 computer screens and a server under the house that ran 24 hrs a day but it doesnt use much power he says ,not to mention the half hour showers he took ,i used to turn the hot water off at the system and then yell at him for using all the bloody hot water ,i really enjoyed that .and miss it and him sometimes ,he will learn about the expenses when he finishes uni and has to fend for himself

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Looking at facts, and fact is we produce more more pollution per head than anywhere else, don't get bogged down in the India and China argument, per capita we are the worst.

All removed...

[flappist]

Statistics are wonderful things.

For example the most dangerous sport in the world is Lawn Bowls, more people die playing lawn bowls than any other sport, golf is second.

Hospitals are the most dangerous public buildings to be in. More people die in hospitals than any other public building. Second is retirement villages.

The safest car in Australia is the Bugatti Veyron, no one in Australia has EVER been hurt or killed in a Veyron in the last 1000 years.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.......

[ute83]

Originally Posted by glimmerman

How does explaining the science behind global warming make me a hypocrite? That's just like you explaining to me how an apple falling from a tree is due to gravity and then I label you a hypocrite?
If you have nothing to add that is constructive and adds to the debate then go away because you're an absolute waste of time

Re-read post 40. If you want to preach your beliefs then you should lead by example. Even 6 times a year is 6 too many for a believer.

[ebxr8240]

Power prices ..PLEASE ..

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Power prices ..PLEASE ..

As noted above ....... the direction of the thread has taken a wild left hand turn. The Religion of Climatology has nothing to do with the topic as far as I can see ....... Race, politics and religion are not healthy discussion to have.


ON WITH TOPIC ...................

[BHDOGS]

i get a 20 percent discount of my electricity and 12 percent discount of my gas usage haven't got my new bill at my first place yet but ive budged 1500 for 3 months including my water see how i go.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by cuz

..

why get personal - hmmmmm?????

Instead of using your powers on personal attacks, prove me wrong



(any wonder quite a number of respected posters have moved away from this forum and I don't think I will be far behind them, I can guarantee you wouldn't have the balls to say it to my face but you are a super-human behind a computer screen, I have put people like you to the test in the past and they ALL go wanting)

[Kevxr8Leexr6]

Don't mind being corrected but has deregulation of once government owned utilities opening up the way for (competition based) private enterprise to take over them actually been for the better or worse for us.

Insurance- green slip - soared after deregulation

PMG/telecom- opened up to competition. also soared after deregulation

Electricity - and here we are with the same result.

the ones behind all of this deregulation. the governments in power over many years, sold off utilities to fund other mismanaged areas.
If these governments were to be held responsible for their mismanagement as directors or CEO,s would be ?
benchmark this against other countries that have gone down this road, don't own roads don't own any infrastructure at all. where are they. most notably some European countries, broke and foreign owned. :-(

[LOCO XP]

Originally Posted by Kevxr8Leexr6

Don't mind being corrected but has deregulation of once government owned utilities opening up the way for (competition based) private enterprise to take over them actually been for the better or worse for us.

Insurance- green slip - soared after deregulation

PMG/telecom- opened up to competition. also soared after deregulation

Electricity - and here we are with the same result.

the ones behind all of this deregulation. the governments in power over many years, sold off utilities to fund other mismanaged areas.
If these governments were to be held responsible for their mismanagement as directors or CEO,s would be ?
benchmark this against other countries that have gone down this road, don't own roads don't own any infrastructure at all. where are they. most notably some European countries, broke and foreign owned. :-(

Originally Posted by BENT_8

The economy is on its **** because Australians are over payed, debt acquiring know it all's who think being king is owning a property portfolio at the detriment of every struggling family just trying to keep up the payments on a mortgage they should never have been given, on a asset which is quickly in decline that they paid twice the real value of.
All the while taking advantage of equity mate to have 2 new Fords in the driveway to qualify their opinion of Fords demise on a Ford forum all the while putting down anyone who wont spend their hard earned for the privilege.

Now, have I left anyone out .

These two statements are the most relevant to the original post.

Deregulation and people living beyond their means are massively detrimental factors to the economy.

The price of electricity is just a symptom of a far greater underlying syndrome.

An abundance of overpaid people making stupid decisions, and a government with flawed policies that looks to be controlled by big industry and the green agenda.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

(any wonder quite a number of respected posters have moved away from this forum and I don't think I will be far behind them

Without the necessity for the unquoted part of the post, the rest of the sentiment is quite correct.

The site T&C quite clearly states and I continue to reiterate that everyone who posts on this site is entitled to their opinion without fear or favour.

If people (like some of those edited and warned in this thread) are unable to post an opinion without resorting to insults then there will be more warnings handed out until they are either gone or have learnt.

Russ

[KIWI-1]

For those interested in the cost of electricity, the interview with Grant King, CEO of Origin Energy this morning on Inside Business provides great background to electricity costs. It will be viewable in due course at http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/.

My rough summary of some of the interview:
The mid-$30 ETS estimate comes from Treasury forecasts,
We need to start building base load power stations in the next few years or we will run out of base load generation capacity in about a decade,
Coal power is still by far the cheapest way to build and generate,
RETS are pushing the price of electricity up,
The Labor ETS trades overseas, the Liberal trades within Australia,
Expect higher prices in the future.

[Dr Jekkyl]

Originally Posted by LOCO XP

These two statements are the most relevant to the original post.

Deregulation and people living beyond their means are massively detrimental factors to the economy.

The price of electricity is just a symptom of a far greater underlying syndrome.

An abundance of overpaid people making stupid decisions, and a government with flawed policies that looks to be controlled by big industry and the green agenda.

Almost precisely!

Deregulation (and privatisation) has not delivered the promised benefits, and the taxpayer is never let of the hook completely. For example, deregulation of the finance industry has not been of benefit to society overall, only a selected few, yet the public have been (and I predict will be again) expected to pick up the tab when it all goes to hell. Yet business as usual appears to be the future.

Deregulation/privatisation has been spruiked as the path to prosperity and public policy has been manipulated to accommodate it. It has become acceptable in the electorate thanks to smoke-screen campaigns that deliver only cherry-picked information which frame government debt as, effectively, the work of Satan.

The punters have been enjoying massive increases in their living standards thanks to this "good economic management". But they have been asleep at the wheel.



Numerous vested interests wish to ensure the continuance of this model as they have benefited from it and they have hijacked sensible debate. It is however unsustainable and what at this time is seriously lacking is the resolve to govern in the best interests in the nation without the undue influence of vested interests and rent-seekers.

[Dr Jekkyl]

This is perhaps the most sensible piece of economic commentary I have ever seen.

http://theconversation.com/the-truth...t-levels-13245