Holden on the verge of closing Australian plants

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Everything is going to be under pressure when the auto industry goes under, imagine Centrelink, they couldn't even manage dealing with one person, let alone 200,000 walk into their local office.

Auto Industry manufacturing is only 5% of total manufacturing in Australia.
those vehicle builders are going to be well and truly outnumbered by heavy manufacturing tradies,
it's just devastating what is happening in the rest of Australia and unless mining picks up we're screwed..

[mik]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Those with an open mind might be pondering...seeing as Ford is closing manufacturing down and that's an absolute certainty, if Holden can get their act together and reduce costs and gather sufficient Govt support to continue, maybe, just maybe those who value Australian production and high performance Australian made vehicles should swing in behind Holden / HSV and buy one ???

If you take your blue glasses off, can I be so bold as to suggest the HSV GTS actually looks like a pretty good bit of kit

The problem is not the cars Rodge, the problem is Australia, these so called third world countries have a big business advantage agreed upon by governments and other parties, industry here is drowning in expenditure, and no amount of being clever or being efficient as loud mouth politicians keep spouting will change that fact.

[Guzz226]

Radical change is required.

If the Feds can't do anything about tariffs, there are 2 things they can do:
- All Government purchases must be Australian - the only exemption would be if something specific like an offroad 4wd eg LandCruiser is required and isnt made locally
- Dramatically reduce the FBT in lease payments for Australian built cars. Leasing has become more expensive in recent years and this is impacting the take up of new vehicles of all kinds including the local makes. Now if you could lease a new Falcon or Commodre for $1000s pa less than other makes/models it would influence some pruchases to go that way instead. And being leases, there is a goof chance of similar repeat business every 3 or so years.

Sadly no Government can get their nose out of the till long enough to think outside of the box for the longer term!!!

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

How about one step further and bring workers from overseas.

Yep, sounds great. Let's start with giving away your job first.

Ed

[GREGL]

This just a thought and I'm going off what a lot of people on here have pointed out , so here goes . At least 50% of the contributors on these types of threads , along with the other X % of the population understand that for whatever reason large Rwd sedans are dinosaurs and have a very limited market.
Now I can't help but ponder , why when both have the ability to design and build world class large sedans and when the writing has been on the wall for so long , that they did not direct the R&D to building a medium sized one instead . At least one of them has had huge grants, and should have been able to build the thing. ( not the volt wrong time ).
I know , I know , economies of scale and all that but their already blowing b/loads on the current big cars so what's the difference . There's the Cruize but really what makes any different to it's competitors .
A truly Australian designed and built mid sizer would with all the attributes of a the Falcon would be something to really advertise. If we are really that good we should be able to build a BETTER Focus/Cruize and offer the 5 year warranty to compete.

[zilo]

I can't help thinking that the only Australian car manufacturer not haemorrhaging money in all directions is Toyota.

I can't help noticing either that Toyota has been constantly ahead of the other two in embracing new technologies early.

The hybrid program within Toyota whilst not yet being attributable for dominant sales numbers does, however, position them extremely well for the huge increases in petrol prices forecast for the future.

It also gives them credentials of being perceived as fuel efficient.

Whereas Ford and Holden are perceived as guzzlers, regardless of "active fuel management (AFM) V8's" or aluminium bonnets as a smokescreen for fuel efficiency or the Ecoboost mumbo jumbo by Ford.

The public haven't bought it and the sales reflect it.

Just watch Territory sales fall through the floor as petrol prices climb further.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

18 actually, and that's from inside knowledge.
You would be surprised how far it reaches down.

1 employee produces 18 vehicles per year (2011 figures)
Let's make things easy and use an "average" wage of $50,000 pa.
Labour cost of producing 1 car = (1+18)*50000/18
Labour cost of producing 1 car = $52777
That's about twice what they sell for (or four times if you include on-costs).

Originally Posted by jpd80

Auto Industry manufacturing is only 5% of total manufacturing in Australia.

Car industry subsidy = 1.18billion (2010-2011)
In order to have all industries subsidised at the same level:
Subsidies required for other manufacturing industries = 1.18/5*100*.95
Subsidies required for other manufacturing industries = $22.42 Billion
Total subsidies for all industries = $23.6 Billion

[Trump]

Originally Posted by GREGL

This just a thought and I'm going off what a lot of people on here have pointed out , so here goes . At least 50% of the contributors on these types of threads , along with the other X % of the population understand that for whatever reason large Rwd sedans are dinosaurs and have a very limited market.
Now I can't help but ponder , why when both have the ability to design and build world class large sedans and when the writing has been on the wall for so long , that they did not direct the R&D to building a medium sized one instead . At least one of them has had huge grants, and should have been able to build the thing. ( not the volt wrong time ).
I know , I know , economies of scale and all that but their already blowing b/loads on the current big cars so what's the difference . There's the Cruize but really what makes any different to it's competitors .
A truly Australian designed and built mid sizer would with all the attributes of a the Falcon would be something to really advertise. If we are really that good we should be able to build a BETTER Focus/Cruize and offer the 5 year warranty to compete.

So what exactly is the definition of a mid size sedan c. 2013? The Mondeo is classed as a mid size sedan, yet it is a bees weenie smaller than Falcon in all three dimensions. Same goes for the Mazda6.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Now I can't help but ponder, why when both have the ability to design and build world class large sedans and when the writing has been on the wall for so long , that they did not direct the R&D to building a medium sized one instead.

Smart boy, and as I have posted before... put an equivalent amount (currently $1.18 Billion per year) into R&D in the component industry as well... it's not rocket science is it?

[gtxb67]

no doubt both ford aus and gm aus were only allowed to build cars here that were exclusive to this country
they would not be allowed to build cars here that can be built elsewhere, because the asian countries can build them cheaper

so for a car that is exclusive to australia and eastern australia, what options do they have - pretty much, only the falcon and commode dore
the territory and cruze were only introduced because the falcon and commode dore were not selling enough

[GREGL]

What is the ratio of automated to human labour in plant these days by the way compared to a decade ago ? Watching Megafactories the other nite on the Camaro and there did not appear to be a great deal . Couple of blokes taking their time lifting door stamps off a conveyor belt . A few more putting in wiring looms and 2 fellas watching the computer for glitches . I understand there is a lot more to it but the writings been on the wall for a long time .
Imagine it would have been the same for the people that lost their jobs in Brisbane when Eagle Farm ? and Acacia Ridge closed all those years ago ,That was the beginning and if they could close them in the boom years why does it surprise anyone about the present.

[KIWI-1]

Did you see the Koenigsegg factory?
The German factory that built the cladding for Lysette and Nigel Offley's house on the River Thames was totally automated? (Grand designs)

[Smoke Pursuit]

Looks like LS1 forums has shut down too!!

In all seriousness not good news... Looks like when are going to get ****** over big time when it comes to buying a decent performance car in the future....

[mik]

Originally Posted by zilo

I can't help thinking that the only Australian car manufacturer not haemorrhaging money in all directions is Toyota.

I can't help noticing either that Toyota has been constantly ahead of the other two in embracing new technologies early.

The hybrid program within Toyota whilst not yet being attributable for dominant sales numbers does, however, position them extremely well for the huge increases in petrol prices forecast for the future.

It also gives them credentials of being perceived as fuel efficient.

Whereas Ford and Holden are perceived as guzzlers, regardless of "active fuel management (AFM) V8's" or aluminium bonnets as a smokescreen for fuel efficiency or the Ecoboost mumbo jumbo by Ford.

The public haven't bought it and the sales reflect it.

Just watch Territory sales fall through the floor as petrol prices climb further.

Actually toyota too makes a loss on cars built and sold here, they admitted as much , but the exports keep them going.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by zilo

I can't help thinking that the only Australian car manufacturer not haemorrhaging money in all directions is Toyota.

I can't help noticing either that Toyota has been constantly ahead of the other two in embracing new technologies early.

The hybrid program within Toyota whilst not yet being attributable for dominant sales numbers does, however, position them extremely well for the huge increases in petrol prices forecast for the future.

It also gives them credentials of being perceived as fuel efficient.

Whereas Ford and Holden are perceived as guzzlers, regardless of "active fuel management (AFM) V8's" or aluminium bonnets as a smokescreen for fuel efficiency or the Ecoboost mumbo jumbo by Ford.

The public haven't bought it and the sales reflect it.

Just watch Territory sales fall through the floor as petrol prices climb further.

Territory sales fall through the floor? You do know they have a Diesel don't you?? Falcon Ecoboost has never been pushed or marketed like Camry Hybrid... Those things are a false ecomony if you look at the environmental impacts they have. They still use fuel, and when it comes time to recycle them they leave a huge footprint!@

Toyota is no comparison to Ford or Holden because they don't design or engineer their own cars in Australia... They used left overs off older models and party trick them up. Further to that the offer a very limited narrow range. Their costs are nothing compared to Ford and Holden's who have both built cars from the ground up for many years.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

They still use fuel, and when it comes time to recycle them they leave a huge footprint!@

What's the LCA for a Commodore or Falcon?

[jpd80]

In Australia every Business input tax is deductible so the bulk of your subsidy argument falls apart.
and on the other side of it, Industry assistance through direct funding is a piddle.....

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

This just a thought and I'm going off what a lot of people on here have pointed out , so here goes . At least 50% of the contributors on these types of threads , along with the other X % of the population understand that for whatever reason large Rwd sedans are dinosaurs and have a very limited market.
Now I can't help but ponder , why when both have the ability to design and build world class large sedans and when the writing has been on the wall for so long , that they did not direct the R&D to building a medium sized one instead . At least one of them has had huge grants, and should have been able to build the thing. ( not the volt wrong time ).
I know , I know , economies of scale and all that but their already blowing b/loads on the current big cars so what's the difference . There's the Cruize but really what makes any different to it's competitors .
A truly Australian designed and built mid sizer would with all the attributes of a the Falcon would be something to really advertise. If we are really that good we should be able to build a BETTER Focus/Cruize and offer the 5 year warranty to compete.

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Smart boy, and as I have posted before... put an equivalent amount (currently $1.18 Billion per year) into R&D in the component industry as well... it's not rocket science is it?

Firstly, the 'difference' is that all the companies plants, tooling & equipment are for the production of the big car.
To do away with this and even 'convert' their lines etc for a small car means the short term seizure (2-3yrs) of production whilst new lines are built & commissioned.
Secondly, and perhaps the biggest reason although many don't believe it, is the fact the parent companies would never allow it.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

no doubt both ford aus and gm aus were only allowed to build cars here that were exclusive to this country
they would not be allowed to build cars here that can be built elsewhere, because the asian countries can build them cheaper

so for a car that is exclusive to australia and eastern australia, what options do they have - pretty much, only the falcon and commode dore
the territory and cruze were only introduced because the falcon and commode dore were not selling enough

I see where your coming from , but my thoughts are based on what is perceived to be the problem . My thoughts are not a opinion as such and as someone just posted , " what is the definition of a mid size car " , exactly right . However maybe the govt. having contributed what they did , could have had more of a say in it than G.M U.S as to which direction they wanted to go , and as I mentioned and this is my opinion developing a electric car when the business is already under financial stress was not one of their better decisions . Better off leaving that to them ( G.M ) and using their tech ,get your own house in order first .
A few on here have expressed disappointment with the demise of the Falcon , and a reluctance to buy the brand again , a locally designed and built whatever offering a warranty to compete with the imports has got to better than trying to flog ice to eskimos as their basically trying to do now.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Territory sales fall through the floor? You do know they have a Diesel don't you??

The US were right into the SUV fad 10 years ago.
That market has moved on since petrol tripled in price.

We will be there soon enough...regardless of diesel models.

Large SUV markets will decline in Australia, that's my opinion.

Pretty sure Ford Aus took it into account when announcing the cessation of manufacturing.

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Falcon Ecoboost has never been pushed or marketed like Camry Hybrid... Those things are a false ecomony if you look at the environmental impacts they have. They still use fuel, and when it comes time to recycle them they leave a huge footprint!@

I have never seen an ad for a Toyota Camry hybrid.

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Toyota is no comparison to Ford or Holden because they don't design or engineer their own cars in Australia... They used left overs off older models and party trick them up. Further to that the offer a very limited narrow range. Their costs are nothing compared to Ford and Holden's who have both built cars from the ground up for many years.

Hmm...pretty sure Holden HR wagons had EH rear ends, Ford XW wagons had Xt rear ends...Starfire 4 was a chopped up 161 ...
Holden VN had a fully imported Detroit drivetrain....
I could go on and on...

I would never say Holden and ford always built local models from the ground up, unless you mean the stamping plants?

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by fte50

Firstly, the 'difference' is that all the companies plants, tooling & equipment are for the production of the big car.
To do away with this and even 'convert' their lines etc for a small car means the short term seizure (2-3yrs) of production whilst new lines are built & commissioned.
Secondly, and perhaps the biggest reason although many don't believe it, is the fact the parent companies would never allow it.

All true! To some extent that happens with a new model anyway.

[fte50]

No they didn't, but none the less they were Australia only available, nation unique models (exception of CKD & export), whereas Toyota Camry eg builds the same car in multiple plants in multiple countries and shares the r&d, cost, and risk amongst all.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by fte50

Firstly, the 'difference' is that all the companies plants, tooling & equipment are for the production of the big car.
To do away with this and even 'convert' their lines etc for a small car means the short term seizure (2-3yrs) of production whilst new lines are built & commissioned.
Secondly, and perhaps the biggest reason although many don't believe it, is the fact the parent companies would never allow it.

Mate I'm not advocating anything , nor bagging anyone . I realise is not a perfect world , in a perfect world we would all have jobs for life in our chosen occupation and be able to elect a politician to represent us that didn't have a diploma in spin . Unfortunately that is utopia .
At any rate reading between the lines you are saying their no hope are you ?

[BroadyFord]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

no doubt both ford aus and gm aus were only allowed to build cars here that were exclusive to this country
they would not be allowed to build cars here that can be built elsewhere, because the asian countries can build them cheaper

How does this pan out for Toyota then? Toyota builds Camrys in Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines and yet Australia is the base from which vehicles are exported to the Middle East.

I don't have the answer, although someone I know who has dealings with Toyota once told me that Toyota Japan regard Toyota Oz as one of the most reliable facilities when it comes to build-quality and workmanship (notwithstanding the pig-headed unions in charge of the joint), and hence award them with the export contract. How accurate this is I do not know.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by GREGL

At any rate reading between the lines you are saying their no hope are you ?

I am only expressing 'my opinion' here, Im almost certain GM will remain to see VF through depending on projected vs actual sales, however evaluating all the forces, scenario's & 'current climate' beyond that it would take an absolute miracle by all accounts which I don't think will happen.
Detroit would no doubt reconsider their decision should our dollar come in at
<70cents and export orders were flourishing, but even if that were the case ask yourself for how long ?

Australia has lost Ford, its inevitably going to lose Holden, and when that hole in WA starts slowing right down this country will be like Greece & Spain.

[Rockape]

I can see where Stazza is coming from here. Once Holden is gone i may get some peace from all the holden idiots at work (not many of them actually drive a Holden but).
And im over all the Holden is Australian BS that the media have been spewing up for years.
Once the Falcon goes will I be taking off my blue glasses and getting a HSV? I would rather drive a Kia.

[buickman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden are screwed. They massively overspent on the VF expecting a big increase in sales, and according to one Holden worker I know sales for the VF aren't doing very well. They made a huge gamble in spending so much on VF but it was never going to stop people buying small cars, SUV's and dual cab utes.

Talking about VF sales I've only seen 1 VF ute on the road that is not a demo and the rest in dealerships . I know when the VE came out they were being seen every where as soon as they were released the commodore as like Falcon good value for money but I agree
Dual cabs, SUV's & small cars seem to be the type of cars people are purchasing.

[Resurrection]

Ford and GM have needed each other to keep building cars in Australia. Once one disappears it becomes increasingly difficult for the other to justify to their head office why they should remain building a unique, low volume car just for the Australian market. This deck of cards is about to collapse.

[Buntz]

The out-of-control train is hurtling towards the ravine... and still the Government will not act.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by stazza

Sweet. Won't have to listen to holden bogans bagging out fords decision anymore.

sucks for the employees. But **** holedung.

I'm sorry to say but in some ways I'm with this bloke....Holden has been making their bed for years now.....spending up big...talking big and global. Spending amazing amounts of money buying v8 super car champions and so on.
Although I feel so sorry for aus and its employees.......Holden itself has nothing but itself to blame....carrying on spending up massive in such scary times.
No doubt a company policy borrowed from the USA.