Has the falcodore grown itself out of the market?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Ugg

It has a longer bonnet, therefore crumples longer and mitigates the forces on the occupants better.

Bonnet length, generally speaking, in a frontal accident, distributes the decelleration forces for a greater period of time and the consequences are far less forces on internal organs in a body, in fact a direct corellation to bonnet length in simplistic terms.

That characteristic, coupled with added mass makes it a safer choice.

Of course there are always exceptions, but in two well built cars the heavier car with longer bonnet wins.

What price would one pay in fuel and gadget terms to potentially have the difference between plaster and wheelchair for life in a collision outcome?


The same can be said of the length of the rear boot compartment in a rear collison.

Again I ask you where abouts at ANCAP do you work? Seems you are making it up to suit your own agenda.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by chopstar87

at the same price point of the G6E turbo, i can get a 300c Luxury model, yes it doesn’t have a 0-100km in 5secs engine, but it does have:

- Heated and Cooled Front seats
- Heated and Cooled cup holders
- 19 speaker 900watt stereo (option - standard is 9 speaker 504watt system)
- dual pane sunroof (option -the fiancé' wants a sunroof, which falcon doesn’t even offer)
- Heat Rear Seats
- keyless entry and start
- 8 speed auto
- Voice control
- Adoptive cruise control
- front and rear parking sensors
- blind spot monitoring
- 20inch alloys
- leather covered dash board and centre consol
- 3x 12v power sockets
- power sunshade on the rear windscreen
- heated steering wheel

and the list goes on...

I think the big issue with falcon and commodore is that they are missing tech, which is held above driving ability of a car these days for most buyers. its all about features.

Cars for lot less money or a bit smaller, have the same amount if not more features then the top of the line falcons, so this is where ford have dropped the ball. because most people just want a car that goes A-B comfortably thats packed for features and thats it. the handling, the power.. doesnt matter.

Great point you slip in there...I would lay every cent in my bank account on a wager that not more than 5% (if that...) of buyers even bother asking the salesman what the 0-100 time is of a car, and even less would ask the quarter mile time. It just doesn't matter in the real world. People want a car that is economical to run and comfortable...acceleration times just don't figure into it in our over-policed road network.
That links in to your statement about "tech being more important than driving ability"...the vast, staggering majority of people don't buy race cars, they buy family cars, and don't see 0-100 as being in any way important...give them a nicely equipped well made car full of features, and it could just as well have an asthmatic old side valve four cylinder in it for all they care, as long as it sits on highway speeds that's all that matters.

Features are another sore point...I look around our supposedly top of the line G6E, and yes, I see nice features...but what I notice most of all are the little features you don't get. I hop in a dirty old Prado at work and it has auto up and down power windows all around, it has soft return on the roof grab handles (not bang back into place cheaply like the Falcon), and I see other low end dirt cheap cars with soft close center console lids and other little features that people have got used to being thrown in as normal...when they see a dinky di you beaut Aussie car that leaves them out...well, it just looks like the makers here aren't even trying to compete...

[RAPID_BA]

did someone in this thread say they do not fit in a falcon but fit in a fiesta? did i read that?

falcon is a lot of things and isnt a lot of things but its gotta be one of the roomiest cars on sale; its interior dimensions are one of the largest full stop. even the seats are generally flatter than most cars catering for more people.

if anything as per thread title falcodores have grown up too much!!

[Luke Plaizier]

I saw somewhere that the current Corolla has just about the same dimensions as a VB Commdore.

I would argue that the Falcadore hasn't grown in size enough. The Territory is proof that a larger Falcon is working.

The Camry is just a 4 Cyl Aurion, yet is considered a Medium car, while Aurion is a large car. Why isn't the Falcon Ecoboost considered a Medium car - is it because of Mondeo? If Mondeo had a V6 would it be considered a large car in our market?

My point is, there's all sorts of wierdness going on when it comes to size, and the pricing is not always an accurate reflection of this.

I am also a supporter of raising import tariffs for equalization of pricing - and the main reason is because there are countries building cars that don't have to abide by Australian Award Wage Law like companies manufacturing in Australia do.

Perhaps if there were a World Government enforcing the award-wage rights of all workers equally across the planet, Australia would stand quite a good chance of coming out strong.


Lukeyson

[SSVPom]

Originally Posted by mik

let us know how you feel down the track when you`ve had time to evaluate it more thoroughly, will be interested to hear your thoughts on cvt and highway use.

I actually rate our Outlander very highly in terms of space and practicality.... but agree that the CVT takes some getting used to, or working 'around' using the manual paddle shifts. I often hold it in gear manually or change up earlier, but the Mrs would never bother, as 90% of the time it is the school and shopping run family hack - not a sports car sedan. Different type of vehicle with different strengths and attributes. (FYI the V6 has a traditional 6 speed auto in lieu of the CVT.)

The SUVs did not exist in the volume they did 10 - 15 years ago, hence why you had to really consider a large sedan as your 'main' car.

[duaned]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

My story of buying cars:

In 2007 when I got my Ls I was really interested in a V8 car, but they changed the rules regarding P plate laws the same year, and thats when I became interested in Jap imports instead. I've never been able to own V8s because I can't drive them legally, and so that pretty much killed it for me, I don't think I'd even bother anymore because the fad has well and truely worn off for me, just doesn't interest me. That turbo spooling up on the other hand

[prydey]

i think the question asked of the thread title has merit, but a lot of the replies are funny given the reasoning is based on a single month of sales, picked at random.

i'm guessing next month could be a whole different reason why falcons aren't selling.

[wookie836]

Originally Posted by mik

speaking of weight , you are not taking into account the safety items in a modern car, air bags are very heavy, add anti lock brakes, bigger brakes, bigger wheels , more gears, safer stronger body structure, electric windows/electronic everything, 4/6/8 speaker stereo, etc,etc,etc, mate they don`t add weight for the sake of it, people keep asking for more stuff in them, if you want a light car, buy and all alloy bodied audi qauttro, i hope you have a good cheque book.

Why do new safer cars full of options have to be bigger and longer than 30 year old cars? look at focus', mazdas and camrys. safe enough?? they have all the options and more safety features but arent as long or heavy as the older cars?? i think you may have missed the point i was getting at. you can buy a i30 with a 5 speed manual, anti lock brakes, full electrics and a strong body structure at about half the size of a falcon. of course that is comparing apples to oranges.

[nickdl]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I would argue that the Falcadore hasn't grown in size enough. The Territory is proof that a larger Falcon is working.

The Territory isn't a larger Falcon. It's actually shorter and the same width. It's just that it makes far better use of its space than a Falcon sedan. People can carry 5 in comfort in much smaller cars nowadays.

If they need a car the size of a Falcon or Territory, chances are they need to carry more than 5, or they need to carry 5 and luggage for 5. 'Family' sedans, while they may be good looking, and drive well, are no longer the most sensible options for families.

However I don't think it's just practicality that has caused the downfall of the Falcon. Look at the VE Sportwagon - it's a great looking car and very practical for a family, but still a majority of families are going for imported cars.

Why? Well better economy and more features are the main reasons. As someone pointed out earlier, local cars are way behind the 8 ball in technology. The Falcon and Territory still has auto down power windows for the driver only - the Focus has auto up and down for all four windows.

Things like heated seats, electric seats, voice control etc. may not seem all that important, but when a competitor has all of these and the Falcon doesn't, it's just another reason not to buy the Ford.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Falcon. But it needs a huge amount of work to be viable - weight has to be significantly reduced, economy needs to be improved and a wagon would help as well. It has to be smaller and with more features, and lastly a few viable export markets need to be found as the Australian market is now far too diverse to be the only market for a car.

All of that would cost a huge amount of money - money Ford Aus. doesn't have and money Ford US wouldn't be prepared to spend with its One Ford philosophy.

[2011G6E]

All the suggested changes here for the Falcon could be addressed in one fell swoop by bringing in the Taurus from the states...read the Ford USA website and the features it has standard, and the model range...

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I saw somewhere that the current Corolla has just about the same dimensions as a VB Commdore.

Not exactly...but I would wager it has more interior space by better packaging. The new Corolla is a much bigger car than any Corolla of the past.

My point is, there's all sorts of wierdness going on when it comes to size, and the pricing is not always an accurate reflection of this.

I am also a supporter of raising import tariffs for equalization of pricing - and the main reason is because there are countries building cars that don't have to abide by Australian Award Wage Law like companies manufacturing in Australia do.

Perhaps if there were a World Government enforcing the award-wage rights of all workers equally across the planet, Australia would stand quite a good chance of coming out strong.
Lukeyson

No no....no no no. People forget the bad old days of strong protection for the Australian car industry...this is another mistake America made that we should have learned from, as did the British motorcycle industry in the late sixties.
When foreign competition comes along offering something better for a cheaper price, it is no use sticking your fingers in your ears, going "lalalala" and pretending they don't exist. This doesn't improve anything...it merely leads to a situation we had in this country in the seventies and into the eighties...cars that were "just good enough", lacking features that them damn foreign cars had as standard, and breeding on one side a lazy manufacturing industry that knew they were protected from the big bad world and therefore didn't need to try any harder, and on the other hand a public who was gullibly believing that Australian built was the best, even when all they had to do was take a nosey poke over the neighbours fence at the Mazda or Toyota he had bought and see the differences in what was considered "standard" for a car.

The makers here were forced to pick up their act, and offer better cars with more standard features, to compete with the cars coming from countries where those features were just fitted in an "of course" way.

The British bike industry in the late sixties refused to face the oncoming storm of faster, more powerful, and better built bikes from Japan, and paid the ultimate price.
In America, the big car makers refused to wake up to the fact that shoddily-built, oversized, gas guzzling monstrosities with what was called "planned obsolescence" built in from new were never going to be able to compete with well built and better equipped smaller cars from overseas, and paid the price...many still are in a way, too slow to change to suit public needs and competition from better made rivals from overseas.

Does Australia and it's car makers have to suffer the same harsh lesson before it wakes up?

I honestly sometimes think it does...and in some cases deserves to.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I saw somewhere that the current Corolla has just about the same dimensions as a VB Commdore.

Owning both a current model corolla sedan and a VH (same as VB basically) and I can tell you that the VH is slightly longer (cos straight six) but interior room is virtually the same.

BUT APPARENTLY THE VH IS SAFER COS ITS GOT A LONGER BONNET AAAHAHAHAHAHAH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOqD...eature=related

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Owning both a current model corolla sedan and a VH (same as VB basically) and I can tell you that the VH is slightly longer (cos straight six) but interior room is virtually the same.

BUT APPARENTLY THE VH IS SAFER COS ITS GOT A LONGER BONNET AAAHAHAHAHAHAH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOqD...eature=related

I know where id rather be, and it aint got chrome bumpers.

Its a stupid argument saying a longer bonnet/boot will be beneficial at all.

Reminds me of an old Richard Hammond comment

And if you had a crash, the only crumple zone was your face

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

BUT APPARENTLY THE VH IS SAFER COS ITS GOT A LONGER BONNET AAAHAHAHAHAHAH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOqD...eature=related

i think you are taking some comments way out of context. how did a 1970's/1980's small car fare?? apples to apples hey!

ancaps own website says that mass makes a difference and that ancap ratings are only comparable across the same class of car.

of course, that is not to say small cars aren't safe. no one is saying that at all. the arguement is, all things being equal, the injuries are likely to be less severe in a larger car of the same rating. of course, as always, there are exceptions.

i'll take my 5 star falcon over a 5 star fiesta any day.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

No no....no no no. People forget the bad old days of strong protection for the Australian car industry...this is another mistake America made that we should have learned from, as did the British motorcycle industry in the late sixties.
When foreign competition comes along offering something better for a cheaper price, it is no use sticking your fingers in your ears, going "lalalala" and pretending they don't exist. This doesn't improve anything...it merely leads to a situation we had in this country in the seventies and into the eighties...cars that were "just good enough", lacking features that them damn foreign cars had as standard, and breeding on one side a lazy manufacturing industry that knew they were protected from the big bad world and therefore didn't need to try any harder, and on the other hand a public who was gullibly believing that Australian built was the best, even when all they had to do was take a nosey poke over the neighbours fence at the Mazda or Toyota he had bought and see the differences in what was considered "standard" for a car.

The makers here were forced to pick up their act, and offer better cars with more standard features, to compete with the cars coming from countries where those features were just fitted in an "of course" way.


Does Australia and it's car makers have to suffer the same harsh lesson before it wakes up?

I honestly sometimes think it does...and in some cases deserves to.

clearly, you don't work in the industry. if you did, i'm sure you'd be only too happy to take a pay cut to help your industry become more competitive!!

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by prydey

of course, that is not to say small cars aren't safe. no one is saying that at all. the arguement is, all things being equal, the injuries are likely to be less severe in a larger car of the same rating.

Yes that is correct. Crash safety ratings are far more important than vehicle size, but yes, if ratings are equal, a larger car is going to fare better, generally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXunnaaYtz0

That being said, i would take a 5-star fiesta even over a 3-star twin-bagged AU...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY


But back to the central topic, the main reason that the general public isn't buying falcadores is simply because they see no reason to pay an extra $15k more for something that's only going to chew more fuel. The benefits they dismiss (rwd etc) mean almost nothing to them.

[2011G6E]

The oldest lie in the world is that countries, be they western or Asian or whatever, can be "equally competitive" or that in some way we could easily make wages "equal" somehow.

Won't happen, can't happen.

The thing everyone forgets about this issue is that we look at someone overseas making a couple of dollars a day, or making a couple of dollars an hour in a factory, then foolishly compare it to the wages we make here.
That is the biggest pile of illogical rubbish ever pushed on people here in western countries.

I would wager that the exact same people who say wages in those countries are too low, will happily go on holidays to those same countries and feel ecstatic about how because of the differences in international economies, we can live like kings there for what, to us, is a pittance because even a normal wage here in Australia is a fortune "over there".

However, to the people living in those countries, they are making what, for them, is a normal wage and a level of pay where they can make an adequate level of living...from their perspective.
From where we sit, a basic wage in this country is only just enough to scrape by...but that only is a true statement if you restrict things to our country. You cannot in any way compare our wages and standard of living to another "poorer" (again, from our point of view) country. We are staggered that someone could live on twenty bucks a month in those countries, but from their point of view, that's normal.

They can't make our wages...probably never will, but that doesn't matter because everything else around them is (to our eyes) dirt cheap as well.

Activist groups are constantly trying to compare apples to oranges like this, saying that wages in those countries should be raised to be more like ours, but you are really comparing apples to horses...the two are completely different and have to be looked at in isolation from each other. The wages in those overseas car factories are, to them, quite fair. To our eyes they look pitiful, but if you imagine things from someone elses point of view, it would look normal and ordinary.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Ugg

It has a longer bonnet, therefore crumples longer and mitigates the forces on the occupants better.

Bonnet length, generally speaking, in a frontal accident, distributes the decelleration forces for a greater period of time and the consequences are far less forces on internal organs in a body, in fact a direct corellation to bonnet length in simplistic terms.

That characteristic, coupled with added mass makes it a safer choice.

Of course there are always exceptions, but in two well built cars the heavier car with longer bonnet wins.

What price would one pay in fuel and gadget terms to potentially have the difference between plaster and wheelchair for life in a collision outcome?


The same can be said of the length of the rear boot compartment in a rear collison.

yes not to mention a small car with small boot , kids people in the back seat 12 inches away from the rear extremities of the car, safe in a rear ender? i don`t think so, a word comes to mind.....2 actually.....death trap.

[mik]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

All the suggested changes here for the Falcon could be addressed in one fell swoop by bringing in the Taurus from the states...read the Ford USA website and the features it has standard, and the model range...



Not exactly...but I would wager it has more interior space by better packaging. The new Corolla is a much bigger car than any Corolla of the past.



No no....no no no. People forget the bad old days of strong protection for the Australian car industry...this is another mistake America made that we should have learned from, as did the British motorcycle industry in the late sixties.
When foreign competition comes along offering something better for a cheaper price, it is no use sticking your fingers in your ears, going "lalalala" and pretending they don't exist. This doesn't improve anything...it merely leads to a situation we had in this country in the seventies and into the eighties...cars that were "just good enough", lacking features that them damn foreign cars had as standard, and breeding on one side a lazy manufacturing industry that knew they were protected from the big bad world and therefore didn't need to try any harder, and on the other hand a public who was gullibly believing that Australian built was the best, even when all they had to do was take a nosey poke over the neighbours fence at the Mazda or Toyota he had bought and see the differences in what was considered "standard" for a car.

The makers here were forced to pick up their act, and offer better cars with more standard features, to compete with the cars coming from countries where those features were just fitted in an "of course" way.

The British bike industry in the late sixties refused to face the oncoming storm of faster, more powerful, and better built bikes from Japan, and paid the ultimate price.
In America, the big car makers refused to wake up to the fact that shoddily-built, oversized, gas guzzling monstrosities with what was called "planned obsolescence" built in from new were never going to be able to compete with well built and better equipped smaller cars from overseas, and paid the price...many still are in a way, too slow to change to suit public needs and competition from better made rivals from overseas.

Does Australia and it's car makers have to suffer the same harsh lesson before it wakes up?

I honestly sometimes think it does...and in some cases deserves to.

those days of over protectionism are long gone, imo it`s so far the other way now they heading down the rapids without a paddle.

[RAPID_BA]

its not about protectionism... not through tariffs...

Through Tax minimisation for the buyers! if you support aust manufactured cars you get..........tax benefits!!

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

its not about protectionism... not through tariffs...

Through Tax minimisation for the buyers! if you support aust manufactured cars you get..........tax benefits!!

I think you'd find that's illegal under international trade laws.

Well...I mean...other countries do things like subsidise their farmers and don't let us do it in the world courts, so, you know...we could, but there'd be a howl from importing countries and we'd end up in court again.

Why do you think, despite all the dangers of pests and diseases, that we can now buy apples from New Zealand and fruit from Indonesia...farmers and other groups gave all the evidence in the world that it would endanger us, but those countries fought hard and said it was unfair that we restricted free trade.

[The Snout]

I need to throw kids and dogs in the back. Territory or <insert any softroader here> all the way.

Falcon 3 box doesn't cut it. It's answering a question I'm not asking.

Rewind 20 years and no softroaders means I'd have picked a Falcon wagon. By going a Territory maybe I am.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by mik

yes not to mention a small car with small boot , kids people in the back seat 12 inches away from the rear extremities of the car, safe in a rear ender? i don`t think so, a word comes to mind.....2 actually.....death trap.

But it's got a 5 star rating mik...LOL

Anyway, please stop applying logic,clear thinking and common sense like the posters in post 73,75,77.

It upsets some people particularly those who just bought a new small 5 star compact car believing it to be as safe as a big new thirsty full sized 5 star Falcon family car....cause it's got the 5 star sticker...LOL

You certainly don't need to be employed by ANCAP to be able to read their website or to have done basic science at school.

[Buntz]

When will these threads and their stupid themes end? - Who can answer this question?

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I think you'd find that's illegal under international trade laws.

Well...I mean...other countries do things like subsidise their farmers and don't let us do it in the world courts, so, you know...we could, but there'd be a howl from importing countries and we'd end up in court again.

Why do you think, despite all the dangers of pests and diseases, that we can now buy apples from New Zealand and fruit from Indonesia...farmers and other groups gave all the evidence in the world that it would endanger us, but those countries fought hard and said it was unfair that we restricted free trade.

In the NZ case, it was proved that aus farmers fabricated evidence, and used evidence from decades ago. One of the pests aus farmers were so adamant would come in on NZ apples is in fact already here...,

It's the flip side of a free trade deal. If you want to sell your stuff to the rest of the world then you have to let them sell their stuff here.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by RAPID_BA

its not about protectionism... not through tariffs...

Through Tax minimisation for the buyers! if you support aust manufactured cars you get..........tax benefits!!

or the govt could actually buy australian made vehicles for all their fleets unless one wasn't available.

if govt fleets were made up of camry, aurion, commodore, cruze, falcon or territory wherever possible, the handouts would be a lot less.

[EgoFG]

I reckon the problem with the CVT is all in its sound.

People in old Honda Civics think they are going fast because that are really close to the road.
People in manuals think they are going fast because they are interacting with the car (Once had a guy tell me an 88 2litre Camry manual was faster than an 88 3l Skyline)

You cant hear any gear changes, and this makes it seem sluggish.
In the Outlander I also think the calibration of the accelerator adds to this perception problem - oh, and um ours is a 2.4.

I hate the fact that my wife did not want a territory (had the diesel been available a year earlier I could have soold her on that).
I reckon that if I drove the Ghia at the same speed and acceleration it would use less fuel than the Outlander (I will never know for sure).

But the Outlander wins on Space and utility.
I have not compared the figures, but rear legroom, and more importantly footroom, is fantastic.

If the next Falcon can pass the 6'2" in the drivers seat, and the seat behind then it *May* pick up more sales.
The Falcon is a well designed car, and is very space efficient in the Large car world (listen up Taurus!).
But when you switch to the more upright driving position of a medium SUV the designers have more to work with.

Originally Posted by SSVPom

I actually rate our Outlander very highly in terms of space and practicality.... but agree that the CVT takes some getting used to, or working 'around' using the manual paddle shifts.

[SSVPom]

Ok, so I did a run to Bendigo and back yesterday, and averaged 9.4l/100km; climate control on and running 2wd. Not great economy really, but thought I'd post anyway.
How does that compare to a current Falcon ?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SSVPom

Ok, so I did a run to Bendigo and back yesterday, and averaged 9.4l/100km; climate control on and running 2wd. Not great economy really, but thought I'd post anyway.
How does that compare to a current Falcon ?

On a short slow country run (you are in Victoria and still have a license so you went slow) that is about what a FG2 T6 will get, the NA6, LPi6 and EB4 will all get better although the LPi is comparing $/100 rather than l/100.

N.B. my definition of a slow country run is not exceeding the speed limit by more than 5km/h under any circumstances.

[SSVPom]

I overtook cars SAFELY, that's all I'll say on the matter.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by SSVPom

Ok, so I did a run to Bendigo and back yesterday, and averaged 9.4l/100km; climate control on and running 2wd. Not great economy really, but thought I'd post anyway.
How does that compare to a current Falcon ?

i've done trips to brissie (from adelaide) and averaged 7.9 for the round trip both times. 2 adults, 2 kids and FULL boot. falcons have always been very good highway cruisers.