October MOTOR - W427 vs GTR vs Ford GT vs Lambo LP - Page 3

merlin · 12-09-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You need to be more specific... name the model you're referring to not the engine.....

So I googled it - Mercedes C63 AMG - RRP $139,500.

0-100 = 4.5secs, Official Fuel consupmtion 13.5L (vs 19L in the HSV).

So faster, more economical, cheaper, more reliable, better built, far better engineered. I can still undertsand why people would buy the HSV, but this is why I wouldn't.

4Vman · 12-09-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

So I googled it - Mercedes C63 AMG - RRP $139,500.

0-100 = 4.5secs, Official Fuel consupmtion 13.5L (vs 19L in the HSV).

So faster, more economical, cheaper, more reliable, better built, far better engineered. I can still undertsand why people would buy the HSV, but this is why I wouldn't.

The C class is not the correct car to compare to the W427....

Wretched · 12-09-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The C class is not the correct car to compare to the W427....

Why not?
The C63, M3 Sedan, RS4 and IS -F are all four door sedans, RWD (AWD for RS4), V8 engines and all around the 140 - 150K prices. The W427 fits that category and the price bracket.
People shopping for cars that fit that category are going to look at all of them (not sure about the W427), so I think it fits quite well.
It can also fit in with the E63 AMG and the M5, but I think they're out of the W427's league.

merlin · 12-09-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The C class is not the correct car to compare to the W427....

I see where you are going with this - So your going to use the "but HSV has a bigger boot and more leg room argument" that the Holden boys love?

Honestly they are both 4 door hotted up saloons - does it matter which has more leg room...The HSV is a very low volume special that will suit collectors and HSV enthusiasts, The C63 AMG is a more mainstream model. I highly doubt Joe Dad is buying a W427 to drive 4 kids to school in it making the leg room argument irrelavent.

I'm not saying the HSV is crap or bagging it out, there is clearly a market for it - I am simply saying I would spend my money elsewhere, that is all.

mcnews · 12-09-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

Beautiful!

That speaks volumes on the grunt front doesn't it?

I mean, here is a $65k 6 cylinder Falcon that is a meagre 0.1 seconds off the pace from 80-120 (real world driving, remember...) compared with a $155k 7.0 litre V8 Commodore.

FPV F6 - King Of Aussie Muscle!

Sorry mate, you are dreaming. The 427 is naturally aspirated and if it matches the F6 in that test you can only imagine how flexible the engine is everywhere. Anybody that thinks a forced induction car that only matches or is beaten in many acceleration tests by a naturally aspirated car is better than the naturally aspirated car is seriously deluded. Imagine how different and better the 427 is going to hook up off the corners, no big rush of boost etc. and it shouldn't really change much lap after lap.

FalconXR6 · 12-09-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Sorry mate, you are dreaming. The 427 is naturally aspirated and if it matches the F6 in that test you can only imagine how flexible the engine is everywhere. Anybody that thinks a forced induction car that only matches or is beaten in many acceleration tests by a naturally aspirated car is better than the naturally aspirated car is seriously deluded. Imagine how different and better the 427 is going to hook up off the corners, no big rush of boost etc. and it shouldn't really change much lap after lap.

That doesn't make sense...

4Vman · 12-09-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Sorry mate, you are dreaming. The 427 is naturally aspirated and if it matches the F6 in that test you can only imagine how flexible the engine is everywhere. Anybody that thinks a forced induction car that only matches or is beaten in many acceleration tests by a naturally aspirated car is better than the naturally aspirated car is seriously deluded. Imagine how different and better the 427 is going to hook up off the corners, no big rush of boost etc. and it shouldn't really change much lap after lap.

Yep.. pretty much spot on. The W427 will be far more tractable on a circuit or winding road....
Straight line tests are far too one dimensional to get a true indication of its prowess in real world situations.
N/A is far better in those situations.

irlewy86 · 12-09-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yep.. pretty much spot on. The W427 will be far more tractable on a circuit or winding road....
Straight line tests are far too one dimensional to get a true indication of its prowess in real world situations.
N/A is far better in those situations.

What is the weight difference between the 2? I certainly don't think a 7L between the front wheels will make corners overly enjoyable.

mcnews · 12-09-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

What is the weight difference between the 2? I certainly don't think a 7L between the front wheels will make corners overly enjoyable.

The 7 litre is I believe lighter than a Boss and possibly lighter than the Ford 4 litre. I believe the 7 litre weighs no more than the current V8 in the Commodore.

I don't know about you guys, but this revhead spent his younger years dreaming about stuff like lightweight 7 litre dry sumped engines. And the fact that this one will probably return close to 30mpg on the highway while ticking all those old school revhead boxes is just awesome. I go all funny downstairs when thinking about 7 litre V8s with that sort of economy spinning hard to nearly 7000rpm etc.

If Ford had made this you guys would be wetting your pants with excitement. Open the other eye.....

4Vman · 12-09-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irlewy86

What is the weight difference between the 2? I certainly don't think a 7L between the front wheels will make corners overly enjoyable.

Its 2kg's heavier than the Std 307kw motor..

FalconXR6 · 12-09-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

If Ford had made this you guys would be wetting your pants with excitement. Open the other eye.....

Not if Ford wanted $155k+ for it and it didn't look any different (worse in the W427's) than a GT with no exterior or interior differentiation. In fact, I would be very pi**ed off!

4Vman · 12-09-2008, 12:12 PM

I was speaking with someone from HSV who told me in the 155K price there are about 30K worth of taxes, Duties and fees....

mcnews · 12-09-2008, 12:12 PM

I wouldn't buy one either, I would take a Cayman S for that sort of money or some sort of true sports car. But at the same time 7 litres of modern day v8 glory is something very, very special and it gives Holden a great hero car. Ford doesn't have a hero car and that is very much to its detriment. Whether they make money out of it or not should not be the deciding factor of whether they do it, the innumerable benefits throughout the rest of the line-up by simply connected with that lineage of a hero car are huge. FPV are trading on the GT lineage from the 70s while delivering nothing more than an XR8 with stripes, still fairly crappy suspension and better but still not outstanding brakes. I can't see how any Ford fan can be happy with that.

sleekism · 12-09-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fev

its actually 6.2lt's. the amg 6.3 badge on the side grill bit is some relation to an older merc engine from way back(im thinking the same engine that used in zonda's as its a 6.3lt)

No I think it's badged 6.3L because by German standards anything above 6.2L is rounded up to 6.3L ie. if an engine is 6201cc it is rated as "6.3L" while in Australia it would only be rated 6.3L if it was over 6249cc.

flappist · 12-09-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I was speaking with someone from HSV who told me in the 155K price there are about 30K worth of taxes, Duties and fees....

On LS1 is the son/nephew/whatever of one of the people who actually bought a W427. He stated the final price was $168k drive away.

On the subject of turbo vs NA vs W427 vs GTR vs C63, when you are spending that much money on a car you buy WHAT YOU WANT for YOUR REASONS. What is important to you is not necessarily what is important to others.

Going back to our own back yard, if the only thing that was important in a FPV was raw power then there would not have been a single BF GT sold.
If heritage and "lifestyle" were the only requirement then the F6 would not exist.

The prime market for the W427 is people who want "the fastest holden ever made". I would be very surprised if HSV stole a single sale from Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche, BMW or anyone else.

I am fairly sure FPV sales of GTs were to people who wanted GTs not potential EVO, STi, Clubsport, 350z, RX8, Lexus or whatever customers.
The most pillaged demographic would have been and probably still is potential XR or Ghia customers.

Big540 · 12-09-2008, 12:47 PM

For 150K I would buy a 2nd hand BMW E60 M5.

At ther end of the day a falcon is a falcon and a comodore is a comodore no matter if it is a F6 or a W427. As the saying goes you can't polish a tur,d.

irlewy86 · 12-09-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

If Ford had made this you guys would be wetting your pants with excitement. Open the other eye.....

Both eye's are open thats the problem.

People are trying to turn this into a "supercar" when it will never be anything more than 7L crammed under the bonnet of a HSV.

As for technical ability, fiddy cent was the first to put a 7L in the VE which makes all the hoopla surronding this car laughable at best. Did HSV consult the rapper during development?

Hillers did something similar several years back, only much more modified and much cheaper.

Fireblade · 12-09-2008, 12:58 PM

Much rather pay a little more and get the original car this engine came from... the corvette, then you would have something different to all these gen3 commodores rebadged with chev badges, the commodore is just a cheap way to buy a chev engine.... and the corvette is a s**tload sexier than the W427 imo.

mcnews · 12-09-2008, 01:10 PM

Oh no question, but we can't buy a RHD Corvette can we... If we could get the Vette for similar money that would be awesome. But unfortunately that is not happening.

FalconXR6 · 12-09-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

On LS1 is the son/nephew/whatever of one of the people who actually bought a W427. He stated the final price was $168k drive away.

On the subject of turbo vs NA vs W427 vs GTR vs C63, when you are spending that much money on a car you buy WHAT YOU WANT for YOUR REASONS. What is important to you is not necessarily what is important to others.

Going back to our own back yard, if the only thing that was important in a FPV was raw power then there would not have been a single BF GT sold.
If heritage and "lifestyle" were the only requirement then the F6 would not exist.

The prime market for the W427 is people who want "the fastest holden ever made". I would be very surprised if HSV stole a single sale from Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche, BMW or anyone else.

I am fairly sure FPV sales of GTs were to people who wanted GTs not potential EVO, STi, Clubsport, 350z, RX8, Lexus or whatever customers.
The most pillaged demographic would have been and probably still is potential XR or Ghia customers.

Best post by far.
Well said!

burnz · 12-09-2008, 01:53 PM

their's somthing about big cubes that not many on this site understand's.
only those who have driven a big cube car do, it's hard to get this point across.
a 4cyl turbo will beat a 427 sb, but thats not the point it's the torque of the engine, the feel of raw grunt.
like a skii boat with an inboard v8 versus an outboard, a harley versus a suzuki.
i guess you'd have to own somthing similar.

loltastic · 12-09-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Oh no question, but we can't buy a RHD Corvette can we... If we could get the Vette for similar money that would be awesome. But unfortunately that is not happening.

You can buy the Z06 over here now for around $220k on the road.

http://www.corvette.com.au/productde...252&fulID=58#1

mcnews · 12-09-2008, 02:19 PM

Yeah but at that price you would take a 911. If they made the Corvette in RHD and exported it here factory rather than some aftermarket company doing their own conversion then it should be able to be purchased for less money than the W427 Commodore. And the Z06 is a true supercar.

loltastic · 12-09-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yeah but at that price you would take a 911. If they made the Corvette in RHD and exported it here factory rather than some aftermarket company doing their own conversion then it should be able to be purchased for less money than the W427 Commodore. And the Z06 is a true supercar.

Possibly. $220k really opens up a massive market of cars, new and used for you. But, if the Z06 is what you really want and the money isn't an issue, then the Z06 is what you'll buy.

flappist · 12-09-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loltastic

You can buy the Z06 over here now for around $220k on the road.

http://www.corvette.com.au/productde...252&fulID=58#1

They are converted from LHD to RHD, not factory originals. Although they (Corvette QLD) do a pretty good job (I have been there many many times as I have clients on both sides of their building) they are not "perfect" conversions and there are several things that are a bit inconvenient or annoying.

They also had several Mustangs there including Shelby and Saleen etc over the last few months. Unfortunately $400k for a Shelby was above my budget. :(

tweeked · 12-09-2008, 03:35 PM

Elite's F6 ran 12.4 @114mph in full street trim with standard tyres. It has a tune only and has over 300rwkw! Half the price and definately quicker than the W427.

loltastic · 12-09-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

Elite's F6 ran 12.4 @114mph in full street trim with standard tyres. It has a tune only and has over 300rwkw! Half the price and definately quicker than the W427.

Yay, comparing stock factory cars against modified cars is fun.

My $50 crapbox Honda with $20k in mods runs 9's so it's better than all supercars because it's faster and cheaper. :rolleyes:

4Vman · 12-09-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

Elite's F6 ran 12.4 @114mph in full street trim with standard tyres. It has a tune only and has over 300rwkw! Half the price and definately quicker than the W427.

Totally Irrelevant.. Aftermarket modified vehicles have no place being compared to factory offerings.

Why does Nike offer so many different style running shoes? surely the "best" version is enough? why does coke offer so many flavours of Coke? surely the "original" one will do?
People have different value systems for determining choice... "best" or "most suitable" is a personal thing...
To say a C63 or GTR etc is "better value" than a W427 is only relevant if you place certain criteria ahead of others.....
Clearly there are a hell of allot of people with a value system that sets the W427 ahead of everything else..

burnz · 12-09-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Totally Irrelevant.. Aftermarket modified vehicles have no place being compared to factory offerings.

Why does Nike offer so many different style running shoes? surely the "best" version is enough? why does coke offer so many flavours of Coke? surely the "original" one will do?
People have different value systems for determining choice... "best" or "most suitable" is a personal thing...
To say a C63 or GTR etc is "better value" than a W427 is only relevant if you place certain criteria ahead of others.....

i only wish i could word thing's like you.
so much info, can't word it..

Fev · 12-09-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

If Ford had made this you guys would be wetting your pants with excitement. Open the other eye.....

he's actually got a point there..

If the GTHO came out, we're all expecting it to cost between 120k-150k

and we'd all be screamin WOOOT and jumpin like toyota fans lol