whats happening over at HSV in 22 days ?

[AU-MUSTD]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive said it before and i'll say it again.. i can't ever see an M5 customer "lowering" their standards to buy a commodore... regardless of its power tag! Image is everything to people with that kind of coin... and being seen as a "bogan" isnt high on the list!

Big call there considering my brother cancelled his order on a new gts when he found out our sister had just brought one , then three weeks later is now driving a new m6. He almost couldnt go past the amount of kit and performance you get for such little coin in the hsv.

[Tles]

HSV to become GM - Holden's version of Lexus They'll import and sell Corvette and Cadillac here and NZ along with Buicks like the Acadia - and export GTS, Maloo, SS utes and Caprice to US as premo Pontiacs. Tie in with Vauxhall VXR for Australasia

Probably do a HSV race series sort of like Carrera Cup - The Brock Challenge Cup for example.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by HSE2

He is talking about the Maloo. Thats being released at about the same time.

There will definately be an E Series Maloo at Sydney, believed to be quite different to VE Ute (more plastic) and running the LS3 (6.2l - 325KW).

Will also be sandstorm special edtion (for the gentile class who's TuRDs weren't quick enough).

Also may have prototype GTS/R for delivery in March 2008.

[HSE2]

No LS3 till 09 MY is what I have been told.

[sleekism]

Who knows with todays marketing. Look at the hype surrounding the VE and it was very underwhelming. Realistically they spent the majority of the billion gearing the plant for export and the rest bringing the VE into line with the BF.

HSV shot themselves in the foot with the VE GTS and ****ed off a lot of customers who found their 100k GTS wasn't special anymore.

To fix the problem they need:

HSV GTS 7.0L LS7 385kw
HSV Clubsport 6.2L LS3 325kw
Holden SS 6.0L LS2 307kw

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Who knows with todays marketing. Look at the hype surrounding the VE and it was very underwhelming. Realistically they spent the majority of the billion gearing the plant for export and the rest bringing the VE into line with the BF.

HSV shot themselves in the foot with the VE GTS and ****ed off a lot of customers who found their 100k GTS wasn't special anymore.

To fix the problem they need:

HSV GTS 7.0L LS7 385kw
HSV Clubsport 6.2L LS3 325kw
Holden SS 6.0L LS2 307kw

How do we know there are ****ed off customers? I will be the first to admit that the VE GTS isn't my idea of what that car (name) should be but my biggest issue is not the actual name but the packaging of it. HSV argues that the GTS name is for a product that they, not the public, believe needs to make a statement. It’s the strongest name they currently use and it is used when they believe they need to make the strongest statement of the day. Not yester year!
With E series they needed the GTS to do a job and it has done so. It’s not the job Joe public understands but from HSV’s point of view it’s been a huge success that will allow them to build.

Now the public I would have thought would have been suspect of the GTS name the moment the power level advantage was eroded way back in VZ series two while the asking price has reduced. In some respects there is very little HSV could have done considering that the majority of new cars released today are either cheaper or offer better value than their predecessor. Are C55 owners going to be ****ed with the C63 costing less? I suspect they will simply move onwards and upwards with the product. That’s what a consumer driven market is all about.

It’s the way of the world when it comes to this sort of performance product. If you wait long enough you will always be able to purchase a newer, lesser in name model, cheaper than the halo product of yesterday.

If what I have read about the LS7 is right then this engine will never see light of day in a mainstream product. It’s going to cost them a fortune to get it past ADR as it is, so it will almost certainly be a high value, limited edition model.

No if they have a problem to fix I wish FPV had it.
We go on about looking after the customer, resale values, brand values and awareness while in the real world the statistics simply don’t support the concern. The world keeps turning and HSV are adding about 450 units to the bottom line a month. That’s pretty good business in these times.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by HSE2

How do we know there are ****ed off customers? I will be the first to admit that the VE GTS isn't my idea of what that car (name) should be but my biggest issue is not the actual name but the packaging of it. HSV argues that the GTS name is for a product that they, not the public, believe needs to make a statement. It’s the strongest name they currently use and it is used when they believe they need to make the strongest statement of the day. Not yester year!
With E series they needed the GTS to do a job and it has done so. It’s not the job Joe public understands but from HSV’s point of view it’s been a huge success that will allow them to build.

Now the public I would have thought would have been suspect of the GTS name the moment the power level advantage was eroded way back in VZ series two while the asking price has reduced. In some respects there is very little HSV could have done considering that the majority of new cars released today are either cheaper or offer better value than their predecessor. Are C55 owners going to be ****ed with the C63 costing less? I suspect they will simply move onwards and upwards with the product. That’s what a consumer driven market is all about.

It’s the way of the world when it comes to this sort of performance product. If you wait long enough you will always be able to purchase a newer, lesser in name model, cheaper than the halo product of yesterday.

If what I have read about the LS7 is right then this engine will never see light of day in a mainstream product. It’s going to cost them a fortune to get it past ADR as it is, so it will almost certainly be a high value, limited edition model.

No if they have a problem to fix I wish FPV had it.
We go on about looking after the customer, resale values, brand values and awareness while in the real world the statistics simply don’t support the concern. The world keeps turning and HSV are adding about 450 units to the bottom line a month. That’s pretty good business in these times.

I am going to go out on a limb and say the reason for HSV sales growth is more to do with general market growth than the quality of the VE product.

There is a new HSV manager talking about Astras and hybrids when in reality the HSV customer only wants one thing POWER.

Tickford dug themselves into the same hole in the 90's with trying to make the Falcon handle better and be more sophisticated package which did not translate into sales success. (the 220kw S1 TS50 sold a little over 50 units).

HSV has had 20 years to FPV's 4. HSV is richer and has the advantage of Corvette engines yet FPV has outsold them on many occasions.

HSV has lost the weight advantage and the V8 advantage will be lost once the Hurricane V8 comes on stream. HSV need to move now or risk becoming TRD.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I am going to go out on a limb and say the reason for HSV sales growth is more to do with general market growth than the quality of the VE product.

There is a new HSV manager talking about Astras and hybrids when in reality the HSV customer only wants one thing POWER.

Tickford dug themselves into the same hole in the 90's with trying to make the Falcon handle better and be more sophisticated package which did not translate into sales success. (the 220kw S1 TS50 sold a little over 50 units).

HSV has had 20 years to FPV's 4. HSV is richer and has the advantage of Corvette engines yet FPV has outsold them on many occasions.

HSV has lost the weight advantage and the V8 advantage will be lost once the Hurricane V8 comes on stream. HSV need to move now or risk becoming TRD.

FPV is Tickford or they were until they started sacking everyone so to say they have only had 4 years might be true in name but is certainly far from it in terms of product and every other conceivable aspect of business.

The problem with the TS was that it was an 80k product when the same power and better performance could be had for 33k in the red corner. Tickford did the only thing they could do other then do nothing at all and stick with the XR brand.
That TS series one is indirectly responsible for the product that FPV makes today. Without it our world could look very different.
The new manager of HSV is only now saying what Flint has said for the last 7 years. It’s been a HSV trait of foot in mouth for some time regarding Tickford and subsequently FPV supposed identity crisis. The media don’t have the balls to throw the statements back at HSV. Diversity in a changing world is smart business. FPV have done it and will continue to evolve with it. The fact that HSV are now just realising it is just about par for them. The new direction at HSV will include much of the same sort of product. HSV are only going where Tickford and FPV have been.
The fact is that when FPV were at its strongest and HSV its weakest the SWB product FPV claimed as victories were only by and handful of units. Taking into account where the respective products were in the lifetime, it was still very much a win for HSV in life scale terms. What sort of deals HSV were doing at the time is another issue altogether. Again those deals don't seem to be hurting them despite residual indications.

General product growth? The line up has been rationalised and by most accounts higher petrol prices combined with the fallacy that large displacement engines are less efficient should have conspired to hurt rather than help. The truth is that the E series HSVs are so far ahead of the previous product it’s like chalk and cheese. Extremely keen pricing means it the HSV product is the best in terms of value and performance it has ever been. The numbers reflect this. I disagree. The sales success is largely down to the product as tends so to be the case in most consumer related markets. When the BS stops the product has to stand on its own feet.

[merlin]

It would have to be a GTS-R. Hope so anyway.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by mik

i heard on the grape vine a special`dual polarizer hsv` : :

Nah - Super Power (tm) Ultra Brite 'FOGGIES' that stay on fulltime, per ad.

Mutter . ...

[fairBA]

HSV Camira -


well if they put a turbo on an Astra you never know!

[TZENU]

+1 for the GTS-R... Maybe not in that Poxy yellow or with the ironing board wing...

[crYnOid]

Originally Posted by HSE2

If what I have read about the LS7 is right then this engine will never see light of day in a mainstream product. It’s going to cost them a fortune to get it past ADR as it is, so it will almost certainly be a high value, limited edition model.

This is why GM have the LS8, LS9 and LSA coming online in the next few years ;)

These are supposed to be LS3 based but will be 5th Gen motors : so they should have different heads (with direct injection). One of them is more hard core than the others but it doesn't need to be said that the LS7 in stock form could not compete with any of them.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by crYnOid

This is why GM have the LS8, LS9 and LSA coming online in the next few years ;)

These are supposed to be LS3 based but will be 5th Gen motors : so they should have different heads (with direct injection). One of them is more hard core than the others but it doesn't need to be said that the LS7 in stock form could not compete with any of them.

Man this is crazy, the LS2 already kicks sh!t all over the boss. The way this is heading GMH will have a new better engine at its disposal every couple of years. But yea its prob the GTS-R.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Oh i better get the cheque book ready!!

WOOSHAAAAAAAA

[AWD Chaser]

I came across these TM's a while ago (a month or so):

TM 1194984 - 20 YEARS 87 - 07 PERFORMANCE LEADERSHIP.
TM 1194982 - ...TO THE POWER 20
TM 1194984:


TM 1194982:

[samftr]

I was following a gts in white the other day. I thought to myself

"Gee this thing looks like a fookin storm trooper"

"I wonder if George Lucas will get royalties from the sales?"

Out of interest, what has that big fat backsided VE SS six litre v8 got in terms of power output? They aren't really that quick off the line, that is for sure...

[HLC]

^^ 307kw

as stated by the badge on the back of it :

[Bent8]

Well I know from 1st hand experience that the LS2 297kW motor ain't that great against a nicely tuned BOSS motor :

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Well I know from 1st hand experience that the LS2 297kW motor ain't that great against a nicely tuned BOSS motor :

Walks all over it standard though. So did the LS1. And L76. And L98. Pretty much every V8 they've had since 1999 walks all over the Boss stock.

[Bent8]

Walks all over it standard though. So did the LS1. And L76. And L98. Pretty much every V8 they've had since 1999 walks all over the Boss stock.

True but don't forget the Holden's are 5.7L and 6.0L motors while Ford's largest block is only 5.4 litres...quick comparo for you

6.0L LS2 with tuned headers - 307kW@6000/550Nm@4400rpm (VE GTS)
5.4L BOSS 260 with a few mods - 325kW@5800/550Nm@4000rpm (My Beast)

Can't argue with that mate...

[XR8-260]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Walks all over it standard though. So did the LS1. And L76. And L98. Pretty much every V8 they've had since 1999 walks all over the Boss stock.

Stock, the Boss XR8 and the LS1 SS are fairly evenly matched in a straight line (give or take a tenth).

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by HLC

^^ 307kw

as stated by the badge on the back of it :

He said VE SS so that would be 270kW... but press VE SS's were faster than HSV's 307kW models anyway... go figure.
You can always count on Holden to BS.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Bent8

True but don't forget the Holden's are 5.7L and 6.0L motors while Ford's largest block is only 5.4 litres...quick comparo for you

6.0L LS2 with tuned headers - 307kW@6000/550Nm@4400rpm (VE GTS)
5.4L BOSS 260 with a few mods - 325kW@5800/550Nm@4000rpm (My Beast)

Can't argue with that mate...

That's modified vs stock? That's hardly fair.

How about a stock on stock comparison...

5.4L Boss290 - 290kW @ 5500rpm, 520Nm @ 4500rpm
6.0L GenIV LS2 (VE) - 307kW @ 6000rpm, 550Nm @ 4400rpm
6.0L GenIV LS2 (VZ) - 297kW @ 6000rpm, 530Nm @ 4400rpm
5.7L GenIII LS1 (VTII-VYII) - 300kW @ 6000rpm, 510Nm @ 4800rpm
5.7L GenIII LS1 (VYII) - 285kW @ 5800rpm, 510Nm @ 4800rpm

And every single one of those listed engines powers a HSV to being faster then the FPV GT.

The fact that you need "a few mods," to compete with them shows... well. Plus the 6.2litre GenIV LS3 just came out in the states, 321kW 586Nm in the Corvette. If that's what's coming in 22 days or whatever to HSV, that'll put Ford/FPV another few steps behind. And be as powerful as your car. ;)

[Bent8]

Your right, stock vs stock the BOSS motor is lacking because it has the least cubes plus the GT's are heavy car's (1870kg Auto) which doesn't help in the performance dept...but when compared to V8's from other car makers the BOSS is still doing well...

Ferrari 4.3L DOHC V8 360kW or 114HP/L
BMW 4.0L DOHC V8 313kW or 105HP/L
Audi 4.2L DOHC V8 309kW or 98HP/L
AM 4.3L DOHC V8 280kW or 87HP/L
AMG 6.2L DOHC V8 378kW or 81HP/L
Ford 5.4L DOHC V8 290kW or 71HP/L
Chevy 6.0L OHV V8 307kW or 68HP/L

No doubt the current 5.4's really need to be upgraded now, a simple flash tune/decent headers would see it making 320kW+ no problem...

C'mon Ford, get your act together!!

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

I dont think a 7 litre 380kw car will have much trouble taking the glory from another stripe's package.

LOL. Exactly what I was thinking :->

The only Cobra ever deserving of glory was the AC model more than 40 years ago...

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Bent8

True but don't forget the Holden's are 5.7L and 6.0L motors while Ford's largest block is only 5.4 litres...quick comparo for you

6.0L LS2 with tuned headers - 307kW@6000/550Nm@4400rpm (VE GTS)
5.4L BOSS 260 with a few mods - 325kW@5800/550Nm@4000rpm (My Beast)

Can't argue with that mate...

Do the same mods to an LS2 and you wouldn't see which way it went...

[Ryan]

You simply cannot compare a modified motor, to a stock one.

The LS2 is superior to the BOSS in standard form, and this is fact. Modified? well the sky's the limit really. A modified Charade could beat either, with the right amount of money spent, but it's hardly a fair and conclusive answer.

Any car can be made to go fast, with the right amount of money.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Your right, stock vs stock the BOSS motor is lacking because it has the least cubes plus the GT's are heavy car's (1870kg Auto) which doesn't help in the performance dept...but when compared to V8's from other car makers the BOSS is still doing well...

Ferrari 4.3L DOHC V8 360kW or 114HP/L
BMW 4.0L DOHC V8 313kW or 105HP/L
Audi 4.2L DOHC V8 309kW or 98HP/L
AM 4.3L DOHC V8 280kW or 87HP/L
AMG 6.2L DOHC V8 378kW or 81HP/L
Ford 5.4L DOHC V8 290kW or 71HP/L
Chevy 6.0L OHV V8 307kW or 68HP/L

No doubt the current 5.4's really need to be upgraded now, a simple flash tune/decent headers would see it making 320kW+ no problem...

C'mon Ford, get your act together!!

F430 has 112.09hp/litre
E92 M3 has 103.5hp/litre
B7 RS4 has 98.57hp/litre
AMV8 Vantage has 88.37hp/litre
You're right on the AMG (81.77)
FPV 5.4 has 72.03hp/litre
And you're right about the VE HSV's (68.5)

And hp/litre means diddly squat. As does a 600cc difference between two 5.0+ litre V8 engines. It's not the reason the Boss 290 is less powerful then the LS2. Just looking at other factory built Modular V8 engines, like the 5.0 Cammer, with 440hp 400ftlbs (328kW 542Nm) from a naturally aspirated 5.0litre DOHC 32-valve V8 (4.6 + overbore) its quite clear that capacity isn't what's holding the Boss290 back.

NB - The new M3 is 309kW not 313. It makes 414bhp or 420PS (Pfederstarke) - the globally unused "metric horsepower," that was invented in Germany and is used by German manufactures and misquoted as SAE horsepower because it reads higher. Same thing with the 360kW (490PS or 482bhp) F430.

[XYGTHO]

Couldn't be bothered reading all the post but if it is the new GTS-R they might have 380kw but at what price. I heard they are over the $100,000 mark. If you have that much money you could buy a GT-P and chuck a blower on it a few other mods and probably make 480kw and maybe still have cash left over? How much is a new GT? $70-80,000?