Update, that VIC Burnley tunnel crash

[Keepleft]

Thunder wrote: - The ACA video clearly shows the ACA car enters the tunnel and exits the tunnel at a constant speed in the same lane. No erratic behaviour by ACA. The Truck driver is fully responsible for the accident.

Fault, and apportioned fault will be determined in time.

If you watch the video you can see that the mercedes and the truck both merge into the same lane (middle lane) at the same time. But the mercedes is in fact ahead of the truck.

Additional issues here too, insufficient warning etc being one of them.

The mercedes is doing the right thing (ie he is overtaking via a lane on his right) and the truckie is doing the wrong thing (overtaking via a lane to his left!)

Much more to it than that. Remember, it is not an offence to overtake a car in the left lane, provided it is just that, a marked lane.

This is perfect example as to why you dont overtake via a lane to your left people.

When driving in the left lane of three laned sections of freeway, I often pass slower traffic to my right camped in the middle lane, I am 'keepling left'. Here in NSW (and indeed in GB, China, India, Sg, Malaysia etc) we use this method, its mirror-reverse of German and EU Continental learner driver training.

We DON'T teach this in VIC, QLD, SA WA, SA, TAS, ACT where the middle-lane of three-laned freeways is considered the left-lane all too often by a public who interpret the middle lane as the left lane.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/attachm...chmentid=28821

That will change with time.

[sfr rob]

I loved watching the stack, I know the Merc wasnt at fault, but that moron of a woman in the ACA car really needs to be strung up, what IF this was a fatal crash, I am sure they would be hounded endlessly.
In my opinion the trucky was baited into changing lanes by the ACA car slowing in the right lane, right at the incline to the exit, I get plenty of people doing it to me when i am empty and cruising on the speed limit in that lane in my truck, people dont get it, if your going to drive slow in the right hand lane, expect to be hassled.

[sfr rob]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

You can all watch the debate tommorow night on where else but ACA

I would like to but won't bother getting into this one as I see all the 'experts that drive trucks on a regular basis' have had there say (of course I'm being sarcastic you fool).

Those that do, understand, but those that don't, never will.

Yeah, I will watch the one sided debate tomorrow. POOR BUGGER!

[J_Tank]

Could it perhaps be said ACA were doing what they do best? Baiting people at their most vulnerable? Playing upon what they perceived the truck drivers preconception of a woman sitting in the right lane driving a 4WD might be to bait him into reacting?
She says she's scared of trucks? I live and work on the North shore and the only drivers that scare me regularly are those in 4wd's. Lol!

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Thunder

We will never know the truth, so arguing over the issue is just silly.

so i guess we cant point blame either then

i drive road haulage as well and have been in this situation a few times as well
even thou some times needing to get into the 3rd lane ( witch i dont like to do ) when comin back you can end up with anouther vehical pullin in to the center lane at the same time , and even in the same situation as that merc , travelin at 80k's or above and with other road users and throu in an od blind spot on the rig and you usualy dont see them till it gets close and you cant just swerve back like a car espesualy if your loaded or have more than one trailer or both with out other problems happening
i dont own my own rig i drive for a company and get paid per hour but still have to keep the rig movin and have to share the road with all others including the jerks (both in cars n trucks n everythin in between ) and like ACA will point out we are the be all n end all of road problems
and at the other end of it we allso cart all .... from the car you drive to the fuel to run it to your food housing and housing products to what ever so we need to be there two
what do we do ????

[Unco]

i've hardly ever had problems with truck drivers. it really comes down to common sense. if you're approaching a bit of a hill, 99% of trucks will want a bit of a run-up to save time, fuel and avoid becoming a nuisance to other road users... nobody likes to sit behind a truck doing 40Km/h up a hill in an 80 zone.

it's a hell of a lot easier for a car to change lanes than it is for a semi. i've lost count of the number of times i've helped a truckie get out of a spot of bother because some idiot decides to cut them off... most of the times i get a thank you wave as i overtake them a minute or two later.

the lady driving the 4wd... she needn't be scared of trucks... WE need to be scared of HER. concentrate on the road ahead of you and share the road with others. i'm sure she had plenty of chances to safely get out of the truck's way, who probably is just trying to get a run up to get out of the tunnel, but in her panic she was more worried about her rear view mirror.

as for the merc, well, it's just bad luck. if the truck didn't see him because of the blind spot, sure it's still the truck's fault, but how are you supposed to slow down or swerve to miss something that you can't see? 1 second the merc is in the far left lane, then the merc decides to change lanes, probably while the truckie was checking to make sure he's cleared the traffic in the middle lane behind him... next second, starts moving to the middle lane with an invisible car already in it. what do you do? i'm sure he didn't push the car for 100 meters on purpose. why is it so hard to believe that the truckie didn't see the merc at all?

[dgb]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

You can all watch the debate tommorow night on where else but ACA

. . . who wouldn't ever possibly edit the story to make sure that they were never in the wrong.

My opinion, the truckie stuffed up. That's beyond a blind spot. The Merc driver failed the 'Give way if its bigger than you' regardless of law. You can win in law, but not in physics. The ACA crew are in no way innocent . . . I love the image from later in that same story of the truck pulling away from their car like a scalded cat - it couldn't possibly be because someone stamped on the brakes, could it?

[LTDHO]

Thunder you have interesting a faulse posts in this thread.

Fact is a three vehicles contributed to the accident.
The truck contributed the least.
The ACA broke the law for the longest for remaining in the right lane for so long, the entire footage shows that she had plenty of opportunities to move left. This then forced the truck to undertake (which in it's self is illegal, but he was left with few options.)
The Mercedes driver did not check his blind spot, that is clear in the video.

So if ACA we not breaking the law in the first place, this incident would have been avoided. Also if Merc driver checked his blind spot for a 22 ton truck, accident again would have been avoided.

[jimmy_c]

Have you seen the latest news story. CH9 ACA Film crew were in the tunnel when it was happening.

They are under investigation by the police.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleId=39411

[Jayden]

ACA went into the tunnel looking for some erratic truck driving obviously, no doubt they purposefully ticked off the truck driver all the while filming his reaction. but the truckie like so many drivers on the road was to impatient. Im not saying he should have to put up with it, but how many times have you had some truck overtake you impatiently when your just cruising on (maybe a bit over even) the limit on a freeway. alot of the time they dont even indicate they just assume they are clear all to often. As for whos mainly at fault clearly the truck driver has to be responsible for his own actions.

But sack them ACA nobs already, their stories are always biased, and set up. not to mention crap.

[gotanxr6]

something i would like to see is footage from cameras mounted in rigs,
then we will see what the drivers of rigs have to put up with,people cutting them off,speeding up when a rig is trying to overtake them cos they were happy to do 85 or 90 with a rig behind them but god forbid one of those
psychotic, drug affected, phone talkin on maniacs gets in front of them!!!
or the people who have to slot into any gap a rig is leaving in front of them self so that if something does happen they can avoid killing said moron.
it is not a oneway street,so some respect from all sides is required to keep traffic moving etc. it is annoying when you are behind some of these people
that take 10 kms to overtake another car,truck,bus what ever because god forbid we exceed the speed limit and get the hell out of the way.
my 2c worth anyway
cheers Dean

[XR06T]

i hate those current affairs programs, they put absolute tripe on the tv night after night..

i think that everyone was to blame in that accident, least of whom is the truck driver.
the car with the aca camera for sitting in the right lane throughout the whole of the video footage, i mean she really is the worst driver of the 3.
the merc guy for not doing a blind spot check, all it would have taken was a glance to see the truck with its indicator on, and if he couldn't see the driver, then the driver wouldn't have been able to see him..
who smashes into the middle lane on a 3 laned highway without looking and looking again? BAD DRIVERS DO..

aca lost all credibility when they said they went back to the accident to make sure everything was ok, when they didn't.

i feel for the truck driver

[4Vman]

Ok, The "great debate" about this "incident" was just on ACA, forget weather you love or hate ACA, nor is this a bash against truck drivers. The facts are the car in the RH lane carrying the camera was well ahead of the truck when it entered the tunnel, WELL AHEAD. It was on or close to the speed limit right the way through the tunnel (confirmed by Police), never drove erraticly, never changed lanes, passed many vehicles in the centre lane yet the truck slowly but consistantly realed her in to the point where he was quite close... then pulled into the centre lane WITHOUT LOOKING to pass her, (collecting the merc that was already in the centre lane and nearly passed the truck) and as the Policeman said quite possibly need to break the speed limit to get passed her..!!! This is a simple case of DRIVER ERROR on behalf of the TRUCK driver, END OF STORY.
The one thing that came out of it that i though was good was that perhaps trucks should stay out of (banned from) the right lane (keep left) on 3 lane Freeways/roads due to their potential for blind spots.
The Truck driver involved certainly copped an ear full from the Police and NRMA representitives over his behaviour and stance on the accident.

[GK351]

I beleive the truckie was at fault, but what kind of a debate was that, ACA didnt really show enough footage of what trucks go through day in day out. Makes me want to invite ACA in my truck for a day.

About banning trucks from the right lane, that wouldnt work at all, what happens when you need to take the offramp off a freeway thats on the right hand side? cut through 3 lanes? i dont think so.

[4Vman]

I think the point of the "debate" so to speak was to clear up the BS that has gone on about who caused THIS incident.. ive got no doubt there are thousands of incidents every day where both car and truck drivers are at fault, However.... on this particular occasion its 100% crystal clear that the truck driver was at fault, no doubt.

[eldreamin]

Yes well this incident the truck driver was at fault. I travel down the f3 to sydney a few times a week at all times of the day and you no what scares me more than this. Its the fact that truck drivers on pennant hills rd have absolutely no respect for school zones. They often go past me at 60+ in said school zones and if I am in front of one I have lost count of how many times I ease off heading towards one to almost get a truck run up my bumper, not to mention honking and flashing lights at me.

Anyway I no that trucks cop alot from other road users, most have no respect for truck drivers at all, but the amount of problems relating to trucks on the road, whether it be the truck driver or other drivers fault, is still not right.

Just the same as everything else on the road, more education is needed.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by GK5766

About banning trucks from the right lane, that wouldnt work at all, what happens when you need to take the offramp off a freeway thats on the right hand side? cut through 3 lanes? i dont think so.

Why wouldn't it work? We do this here in NSW on the F3, the signs are posted on three-laned lengths; "TRUCKS AND BUSES USE LEFT TWO LANES".

Very simple really.

In your example, we'd post; "END - TRUCKS AND BUSES USE LEFT TWO LANES".

But we don't need to often do that because we are not in the habit, on our NSW interstate freeway roads, in designing right-hand off and on ramps.

Certainly those right hand ramps in other places around AUS will be removed over time to conform with traffic law, and to improve safety through lane discipline, this will mean improved throughput.

In relation to the footage shown on ACA, the last segment. What I saw was yet again poor lane discipline, on part of the lady, and a few other vehicles around her, basically a typical Victorian scene.

She moved into the right lane well before the tunnel, and the camera, showing a rearward view, showed the same truck that would later crash looming behind.

Having merged from her KEEP MIDDLE, the car that was behind her in the middle lane then accelerates past her whilst she is sitting-right, seeing as how she's made way for him/her. Mind you, traffic keeping left, in the left lane also accelerates past other middle-lane traffic, comprising that bastion of the untrained who take ignorant delight at 'doing the speed limit' in the middle-lane whilst faster traffic overtakes on both the left and right.

Eventually she passes middle-lane traffic and the rest is history. I did see a clear spot for her to have safely pulled back into the middle lane.

The guests? Generally didn't impress too much. We'd need a good hour for such a show, maybe two.

Change will happen through the appropriate channels.

[GXL078]

Seeing the "full" footage that they showed tonight, it is clear to see that she (the lady with the camers in the car) deliberately moved into the right lane and allowed a car to get out from btween her car and the truck so that she could "hold the truck up" and cause a confrontation. It was plainly obvious from the video

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

Seeing the "full" footage that they showed tonight, it is clear to see that she (the lady with the camers in the car) deliberately moved into the right lane and allowed a car to get out from btween her car and the truck so that she could "hold the truck up" and cause a confrontation. It was plainly obvious from the video

I wouldn't have said it, but have some sympathy with that, she moves to the right from the left, the vehicle behind her in the middle lane then accelerates past her. Per above.

Don't usually deal with media, but I'd have liked a crack at this in the generic sense. I note ACA are invisible to contact, too hard.

[CAMS290]

ACA- Shame on you !!
Merc driver- Check your blind spot
Truck driver- Most likely checked his left hand mirror, it would of looked all clear,
then the Merc would of dropped into his blind spot, and the truckie probably didnt realise what was going on until it was too late.

Some of you keyboard experts should get out for a ride in a truck sometime, i have been driving trucks for nearly 18 years now, and i can tell you the idiot car drivers are getting worse by the day.
Always in a hurry..."Gotta get in front of that truck.....even if its doing the speed limit....than slow down when they are in front"

Came back through the Burnley tunnel about 2.30pm today in my truck, why cant cars stick to the limit ?? Not 60 or 70kph....its a bloody 80kph limit in there....i dont want to go faster than 80 but i want to do the speed limit.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

Seeing the "full" footage that they showed tonight, it is clear to see that she (the lady with the camers in the car) deliberately moved into the right lane and allowed a car to get out from btween her car and the truck so that she could "hold the truck up" and cause a confrontation. It was plainly obvious from the video

Im sorry but that's so totally wrong... what footage did you see? the police confirmed she was travelling on or near to the speed limit, she was WELL ahead of the truck entering the tunnel, in fact the truck was well in the back ground.. how could she hold up the truck unless he was going faster?

[GK351]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Why wouldn't it work?

Certainly those right hand ramps in other places around AUS will be removed over time to conform with traffic law, and to improve safety through lane discipline, this will mean improved throughput.

Gore hill freeway (Reserve rd ramps) are all on the right hand side, so is the Pacific hwy exit just 1 km up the road.

Eastern distributor has a right hand side exit to get into the cross city tunnel.

M5 westbound after the tunnel (kingsgrove rd exit) is on the right hand side also.

They are Sydney's latest major road upgrades/changes, i doubt they will ever change it.

I'd like to see lane discipline within everyone on the road too. Trucks, cars, bikes. But banning trucks from the right lane will never work IMO anyway.

The road is their to share.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Merc driver- Check your blind spot
Truck driver- Most likely checked his left hand mirror, it would of looked all clear,
then the Merc would of dropped into his blind spot, and the truckie probably didnt realise what was going on until it was too late.

The mercs "blind spot" (as is all cars) is on the left hand side REAR!!!!! the truck was on the mercs Right hand side REAR!!! The merc was passing the truck.... if the driver COULDNT clearly see that the centre lane was clear then why did he change lanes?? Either:
a) the truck has a design issue which causes a large blind spot or
b) the truck driver DIDNT LOOK before veering left into the passing merc....!

[eldreamin]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im sorry but that's so totally wrong... what footage did you see? the police confirmed she was travelling on or near to the speed limit, she was WELL ahead of the truck entering the tunnel, in fact the truck was well in the back ground.. how could she hold up the truck unless he was going faster?

What evidence did they show for this? The cameras in the burnley tunnel or just what was in the car?

There is no reason why she couldnt have been doing 60 or 70 and no one would have known otherwise cause there is no footage of the car's speedometer.

I understand that maybe the truck was indeed travelling too fast but there is also nothing to indicate that the aca car was travelling the speed limit. Although she was breaking the law by not keeping left when there was nothing beside her and that was one of the main points of interest in regards to the accident.

[EB_5.0_WAGON]

Ok this is my opinion on the subject.

I am a truck driver and the ACA show tonight was nothing more than a TRUCKIE BASHING debate.

I didnt see the whole thing and i was curious about the car they had on the set and the circumstances of that accident.

I personally have watched the video of the accident in the tunnel and I think the mercedes is at fault as he didnt indicate. I have just rewatched the accident on youtube a couple of times to check this fact.

If the mercedes didnt indicate then HOW THE HELL IS THE TRUCK DRIVER suppose to know he is changing lanes.

I definately think ACA were the main people at fault. Why were they in the tunnel with a camera attached to the 4wd in the first place except to look for trouble or cause it.

[Keepleft]

GK5766 writes: - Gore hill freeway (Reserve rd ramps) are all on the right hand side, so is the Pacific hwy exit just 1 km up the road.

The Gore Hill 'freeway' is not an interstate freeway. I am referencing this in my post you quote. Now;
* The Gore Hill freeway Reserve Road right/median located ramps came about because of LOCAL government politics and advocacy. RTA had originally designed traditional left handed ramps at Hampden? road, closer to the city. Council opposed using that road. If I were Minister - I'd have told Council, 'sorry, no interchange for you', full-stop! Make no mistake about it.

Incompetent swine's:-)

The road is NOT constructed to motorway/freeway standards by either NSW 'state' design parameters OR the more stringent Commonwealth (AUSROADS) parameter.

Eastern distributor has a right hand side exit to get into the cross city tunnel.

Again, EXACTLY per above through 'local' advocacy and 'concerned resident' input. It is NOT an intercity freeway/motorway class road except by name.

M5 westbound after the tunnel (kingsgrove rd exit) is on the right hand side also.

M5 again, per local government advocacy and 'concerned resident/green advocacy'. M=motorway and this road has seen more than its fair share of crashes. At $795 million a drunken monkey would have designed better.

This road is NOT considered a national route by RTA.

They are Sydney's latest major road upgrades/changes, i doubt they will ever change it.

With time some changes will be made to these state roads in relation to ramps. RTA increasingly find it necessary to 'resist' consultants and local government meddling in state infrustructure, it needs too.

I'd like to see lane discipline within everyone on the road too. Trucks, cars, bikes. But banning trucks from the right lane will never work IMO anyway.

It does, we use it on the F3, right now.

The road is their to share.

Like RTA's slogan?:-) Good, be assured that sharing will not extend to cyclists on Commonwealth route motorway class roads IF I get my way.

IN relation to the above state disasters you highlight, each and every time the 'projects' came to light - NRMA and self made representations to governments, agencies, consultants, to NOT allow for the construction of right hand entries. This position stands firm AND RTA's state guidelines increasingly reflect that.

Right ramps are NOT conducive to efficient traffic flow, add to aggression and poor behaviour.

A SINGLE Commonwealth right median exit lane remains in NSW, Hume and The Snowy Mountains Highway interchange. That *will* go in time, for certain.

The proposed F3 to M2 tunnels will have left ramps (interchange) per usual, but I want them to be three lanes each direction with full-length 2,5 - 3.0m wide shoulders, an additional 110 million dollars, 'ballpark':-)

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The mercs "blind spot" (as is all cars) is on the left hand side REAR!!!!! the truck was on the mercs Right hand side REAR!!! The merc was passing the truck.... if the driver COULDNT clearly see that the centre lane was clear then why did he change lanes?? Either:
a) the truck has a design issue which causes a large blind spot or
b) the truck driver DIDNT LOOK before veering left into the passing merc....!

My Pursuit has a massive blind spot on the right hand side, just behind the B Pillar as do most cars........left hand exterior rear view mirrors should give a clear view down the left side of a car if adjusted correctly..and used in conjunction with the interior rear view mirror....something some car drivers have trouble managing.

I bet the truck driver DID look and DIDNT see the car, as it WAS in his blind spot as he was changing lanes.

You obviously havent been in a large truck or HAVE NO IDEA what it is like to see down the left just below the passenger door ??

[LTDHO]

debate on ACA???

that's so funny.

no chance of it being fair and un-bias.

[GK351]

Keepleft-
I never mentioned "Intersate Freeways" just freeways, and i used as one of my examples the "gore hill freeway" I think i know what an intersate freeway is and what isn't. But thank you, your road rule posts are always a pleasure to read.

The gentleman on ACA that quoted that "Trucks should be banned from using right lanes" was he reffering to Interstate freeways or State roads?

I am assuming State roads, such as the domain tunnels and such.
Going by what ACA's topic of debate was about tonight anyway.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The mercs "blind spot" (as is all cars) is on the left hand side REAR!!!!! the truck was on the mercs Right hand side REAR!!! The merc was passing the truck.... if the driver COULDNT clearly see that the centre lane was clear then why did he change lanes?? Either:
a) the truck has a design issue which causes a large blind spot or
b) the truck driver DIDNT LOOK before veering left into the passing merc....!

Yep, they do have a really bad blind spot. We've got an Argosy the same as the one in the ACA crash. Windows are high, mirrors arent all that big. I was out in it the other day and there is a bad blind spot on the left side from about 1m in front of the cab, back to about the rear of the prime mover. You can stand up and still not really even see it. Usually you try and keep a good enough eye on whats going on in the mirrors that you see most of what's going on in the other lanes to know if there's something there or not. But i still indicate for a few seconds, and then move over slowly, so hopefully if there is something there that you cant see, they'll get out of the way, or toot or whatever.




Most of the other trucks we've got have are more like this. You can see the bigger mirrors, with big blind spot mirrors, and the lower peeper window, as well as the larger door windows eliminates that blind spot that the argosy has. You look over through the passenger side peeper window and can see if you've got anyone tucked in that blind spot.


The truck driver changed lanes pretty agressively, which gave him no time to react to the car being there, and the can driver had no time to get out of the way, but also, serves him right for merging into a trucks blind spot.

There are so so so so many cars now, so paranoid in the tunnel, that it's no longer the trucks holding the cars up, but i quite often find myself coming through the tunnel doing 55 - 60kmh in the right lane, because there is a paranoid car blocking the lane ahead. Same as the monash, you either sit in the left lane, and do 70 and put up with all the merging traffic, middle lane and do 85 - 90, or sit in the right lane and do your speed limit, in the most smoothly flowing, predictable, consistent lane on the freeway, but car drivers still give you filthy looks like you shouldn't be there!

I'm sick of being cut in on. There would not be 30 mins go by when in melbourne where someone doesn't do soomething rediculously dangerous right in front of you. Some cars push in to close, that you cant see their tail lights on their car, but if i hit them i'm the biggest dirt bag in the world.

Anyone that wants to see a trip through the tunnel and down the monash and around the bay in a truck, and see what it looks like from a drivers point of view, feel free to come for a look. You'll be amazed at what goes on.