HELP! I need reasons why a clevo is better than a windsor - Page 2

XD 351 Ute · 22-01-2005, 11:34 AM

I like them both, and as others have said, a 'Boss' Windsor would have to be very hard to beat.

But at the end of the day, unless you're planning on going to a late spec engine, you'd be better off with a Cleveland purely and simply from a parts availability point of view.

I was going to say that I've always thought the Windsor in a race car had the better noise, but that was until I saw the Group C boys in their XC, XD, and XE racecars last year...... That was something special!!

Ed

Vic · 22-01-2005, 11:51 AM

Is the BOSS just more reliable than either a Windsor or a Cleveland on their own or is it a better performer?

Psycho Chicken · 22-01-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exKermitGreenXR8

Just out of intrest what motor was in the Shelby Mustang GT?

I thought they were all Wheezers?
GT350 was a 289 and GT500 was a 351?

Psycho Chicken · 22-01-2005, 12:36 PM

Ok, 500 is is a 428, my mistake.

Quote:

The GT500 came with a hydraulic lifter, police interceptor 428 cid. The cam used in this 428 was later used in the 1968 Cobra Jet 428. The GT500 came from the factory with a medium-riser aluminum intake manifold were two Holley 650 cfm carbs setting on top. The carbs came with progressive linkage with vacuum secondaries. On top of the carbs was a special finned aluminum oval air cleaner, very similar to the one Shelby American used on the dual quad 427 motors. The first GT500's air cleaners did not have COBRA letters on the top. All GT500's came with mandatory optional power steering and power brakes. This model 428 was rated as having 355 horsepower. The Ford 427 was listed an optional big block engine for 1967. However, very few if any GT500's actually left the factory with the 427. There is no documentation indicating any GT500's got a 427.

banarcus · 22-01-2005, 02:33 PM

You lot are cannibals. It should be good enough if it was made by the blue oval.

rag top · 22-01-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

I thought they were all Wheezers?
GT350 was a 289 and GT500 was a 351?

Wasn't the 69 & 70 GT350 powered by a 351W??????

Headsex · 22-01-2005, 05:12 PM

I think you need to ask yourself what you want to do with the engine in the first place..

Do you want a big banger all cubes Naturally asperited carby feed monster

Or a

Hi Tech Supercharged/turbocharged EFI silky smooth motor?

Carby monster = Clevo, EFI = Windsor..

Now, not saying you cant supercharge / turbocharge a Carby fed motor.. Personally i wouldnt. The setup of the spark timing map for a boosted car is far more important than a N/A car, and personally i would leave that upto a EFI based computer to control.

Psycho Chicken · 22-01-2005, 05:16 PM

Possibly, I know the 1966 one was a 289 though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by banarcus

You lot are cannibals. It should be good enough if it was made by the blue oval.

Go buy an Edsel then :P

**Falcon Coupe** · 22-01-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 460cixy

only advantage the winsor has i recon is serious big revs in the 289. but clevo heads on the winsor is the goods. i recon as much as the clevo bottom end is strong as an ox its too heavy.

My Cleveland makes power to 7800rpm....how many revs are enough ?

Gammaboy · 22-01-2005, 07:07 PM

Normal 302 Windsors (not Hipo/Mexican or Boss blocks) have a reputation for breaking blocks once you get them past 500ish hp (Don't ask me how Minges is still in one piece, maybe he doesn't drive it?

, and yes, there are ways and means to get a 8.2" deck height block out to 400+ci (8.2 deck Svo or Fontana bored to 4.125", 3.6" stroke i think it is.... someone ran this setup with CHI heads in Engine Masters, came 3rd?4th?)...

351W is a real boat anchor, It was only reall ever built for trucks....

Clevos. Well, apart from core shifts in casting, 10kg extra weight in the block and the infamous oiling issues, the block is a good thing. Heck, the 9.2" and 9.5" SVO blocks use the same crank architecture, but with a Wheezer oiling/cooling architecture.
The Biggest thing the Clevos have going for them are the Heads. Even the 2V heads flow more than *any* factory Windsor head. The canted Valves make them very efficient compared to a pure wedge motor. John Kaase *won* Engine masters this year against all comers using an XE block and CHI heads/intake, sleeved down and stroked out to 406 (?) ci.
None of the aftermarket Windsor heads are anywhere as efficient as either the CHIs or the AFDs, to get similar flow numbers they've got *Massive* ports which kill bottom end....

As far as Aftermarket support, well theres *tonnes* of stuff for windsor if your in the US, but a dearth of gear for Clevo. In Aus its different. We've got 2 people manufacturing great heads, 3 or 4 different intake manufacturers, but no-one building for Windsors.....

Me? I like Clevos. You don't have to drop the cooling system or remove the dizzy to remove the intake. They rev, they flow, there are factory heads that will let you make enough power to break cranks and smash blocks without a blower... And they're AUSSIE BUILT!

Ben

Barry_v · 22-01-2005, 07:46 PM

you can remove the lower intake without removing the dizzy...

both great engines but I prefer an efi windsor because it can produce a lot of power without reducing its drivability and fuel economy. but then again my V8 is an daily driver so thats very important to my needs.

Gammaboy · 22-01-2005, 09:01 PM

depends what you call alot of power......
My XY is my daily driver... it does suck the fuel a bit, but then I get up it a bit.....

outback_ute · 23-01-2005, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Alan Moffat, in the Coke Trans-Am Mustang perhaps?

What motor did that have in it? 302w

Bzzz, wrong! Boss 302 motor there!

My take on it is the Clevo is better for making more power easily, and in stock form is a better motor all round (as it should be since it was developed after the Windsor primarily for racing, and Ford were very serious about racing then) the main weakness is the oiling which can be fixed easily.

There is a lot more aftermarket gear for the Windsor as the Cleveland has not been produced for over 20 years, and over 30 years in the states. By comparison the Windsor only dropped out of the picture much more recently and also it has been well served by all the Ford Motorsport goodies including new better blocks and heads, and they incorporate a lot of knowledge from what went into the Cleveland anyway. The 351W can take a bigger overbore from what I've heard but if you're doing that you're better off with a Motorsport block (up to 0.150" overbore).

As has been said the aftermarket situation for the Clevo is starting to get very interesting too, it's a sign of how good the stock heads were that it has taken this long!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluovl

Plus as someone said earlier they will fit into tighter spots. Doesnt that have to be a bonus?

That would be the 302 and it's a different issue really, there is very little difference between the 351 W & C. The little engine never had a Cleveland equivalent (except perhaps the Boss...)

Gammaboy, the Minginator doesn't have a stock Windsor block in it I believe. A 4.125" bore and 3.6" stroke give 384 cubes (shedloads on a 8.2" deck!!!) but you would need 4.15" and 3.7" to get 400.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headsex

Carby monster = Clevo, EFI = Windsor..

I plan to do a Clevo EFI monster one day!!!

Dodge · 23-01-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:The GT500 came with a hydraulic lifter, police interceptor 428 cid. The cam used in this 428 was later used in the 1968 Cobra Jet 428. The GT500 came from the factory with a medium-riser aluminum intake manifold were two Holley 650 cfm carbs setting on top. The carbs came with progressive linkage with vacuum secondaries. On top of the carbs was a special finned aluminum oval air cleaner, very similar to the one Shelby American used on the dual quad 427 motors. The first GT500's air cleaners did not have COBRA letters on the top. All GT500's came with mandatory optional power steering and power brakes. This model 428 was rated as having 355 horsepower. The Ford 427 was listed an optional big block engine for 1967. However, very few if any GT500's actually left the factory with the 427. There is no documentation indicating any GT500's got a 427.

im driving a 428 at the mo , i dont care much about breaking anything but traction

Gammaboy · 23-01-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Gammaboy, the Minginator doesn't have a stock Windsor block in it I believe. A 4.125" bore and 3.6" stroke give 384 cubes (shedloads on a 8.2" deck!!!) but you would need 4.15" and 3.7" to get 400.

I plan to do a Clevo EFI monster one day!!!

I thought it was a 4.25" bore on the motor in Engine Masters.... but i'm running from memory....
Yep, Injection is on the list of things I wanna do to my clevo too.... thankfully my CHI intake has bosses for injectors cast in...

Steffo · 23-01-2005, 07:06 PM

I can't understand why in Australia we thought/think the Cleveland is a better engine then the Windsor. I guess its the same way people today think that the 5.4 Boss is a better engine then the Supercharged 4.6 in the SVT Cobra.

Compared to the Windsor V8, the Cleveland has absolutely no aftermarket support. Basically, using completley off-the-shelf parts, you can make a 2500 - 3000hp Windsor V8 race engine. There's an entire drag racing class dedicated to the Windsor V8... NMRA (National Mustang Racing Association) Pro 5.0. Bunch of 2000hp+ 6sec Windsor cars (with one or two guys using mod motors). The NMRA Pro 5.0 record is 6.671 @ 207.36mph (331.776km/h). The Record Can be seen here

Performance Ford Magazine Volume 4 Edition 7 has a 6sec Clevo powered EB Falcon drag car...McSweeney Racing's EB. It's, to my knowledge, the fastest Cleveland powered car in the world. It ran a best time of 6.89 @ 192mph (307.2km/h) in Top Doorslammer form. It currently runs in BB/AP trim.. with a best time of 6.923 @ 203.16mph (325.056km/h).

Now.. the Cleveland can be made EFI, just as the Windsor. The Windsor is an older engine then the Cleveland, so there is no reason that the Cleveland could not pass new EPA laws, especially if Ford wanted it to. The Cleveland was only ever featured in Falcon GT's as a performance engine. To my knowledge, most US cars either had a Windsor, a Big Block or a "Boss" engine.

For your average street car, it doesn't really matter if you're running a Cleveland or a Windsor. They'll both perform admirabley. However, once you're heading into the realm of extreme power and speed, I wouldn't touch a Cleveland. It would cost you twice that of a Windsor for the same result.

**Stav** · 23-01-2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exKermitGreenXR8

(Hopefully) I will be getting an ZA and its got a 351c in it and im a windsor man. I love them for sound a hard revs and other reasons. Please give me some reasons why a clevo is better than a windsor. Thanks for your thoughts!
Timbo.

Mate I do believe some of the za fairlanes came out with the phase 4 gtho motors.If it has a funy looking sump you are sitting on gold. But I may be wrong..it may have been a slightly newer model.

Ps the windsors were superseeded by the clevelands back then because of the amount of heads that used to crack on them.

tickford2001 · 24-01-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donut King

wheezer has suffered 6 consecutive bathurst losses, clevo was much more successful, 'nuff said ;)

but chev / holden engines have won the last 6....does that mean we should all be bolting those into our falcons?

outback_ute · 24-01-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by useless

Mate I do believe some of the za fairlanes came out with the phase 4 gtho motors.If it has a funy looking sump you are sitting on gold. But I may be wrong..it may have been a slightly newer model.

Not quite right, it was the ZG Fairlane, and I would be highly surprised if any were built with Phase 4 motors (unless a Ford exec had one built), there were some odd cars that received 4 bolt blocks or winged sumps but that is all. The RPO83 GTs used a lot of the Ph4 gear.

PS, Steffo, what does aftermarket support have to do with which is a better motor? (5.4 vs 4.6 s/c has zero btw and is comparing apples and oranges anyway) I think you've gone a bit outside comparing the two motors, once every single component is aftermarket you are only comparing aftermarket components not a Windsor or Cleveland.

**Stav** · 24-01-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Not quite right, it was the ZG Fairlane, and I would be highly surprised if any were built with Phase 4 motors (unless a Ford exec had one built), there were some odd cars that received 4 bolt blocks or winged sumps but that is all. The RPO83 GTs used a lot of the Ph4 gear.

.

The phase 4 motors and bits never made it into mass production and their parts did go into a fairlane.The motor had a funny sump on it.

Steffo · 24-01-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

PS, Steffo, what does aftermarket support have to do with which is a better motor? (5.4 vs 4.6 s/c has zero btw and is comparing apples and oranges anyway) I think you've gone a bit outside comparing the two motors, once every single component is aftermarket you are only comparing aftermarket components not a Windsor or Cleveland.

There must be a reason the Windsor is the general choice of the aftermarket world when talking Small-Block Fords. Cleveland has been around more then long enough to be just as popular but it isn't..........

Donut King · 24-01-2005, 08:47 PM

Look at the relative time that the 2 engines were produced IN THE US where the market is, the clevo only lasted about 4 years in the US before they switched back to the windsor to meet tougher emissions laws, this is why the wheezer has the largest amount of aftermarket gear available for it, as it is what was used in the US for longer, and hence there is a market there for it, in a small market like AUS there in not much return on investment therefore setting up to produce aftermarket gear like heads & blocks is prohibitive, though work from AFD, CHI and the guys producing the alloy copy of the NASCAR block is finally waking up the cleveland aftermarket scene, and even companies like edelbrock are starting to produce aftermarket gear for them.

Ultimately the fact that there is more aftermarket support for the windsor is nothing to do with it being better, just the fact that ford could get it to comply with emissions easier than they could with the clevo.

Steffo · 24-01-2005, 08:49 PM

I've also heard storys of Windsors having a better head design then the Cleveland, but I haven't researched that much, so I won't comment until I have done so.

brenx · 24-01-2005, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I've also heard storys of Windsors having a better head design then the Cleveland, but I haven't researched that much, so I won't comment until I have done so.

Cast iron vs cast iron = nope
Cast iron vs alloy = yes but a hesitant yes.
Alloy vs alloy = nope

Theres enough decent aftermarket clevo alloy heads around that flow more than windsor aftermarket heads.

Brenden

smciner1 · 24-01-2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I've also heard storys of Windsors having a better head design then the Cleveland, but I haven't researched that much, so I won't comment until I have done so.

/me rekons his **** flows more CFM than Wheezer Heads.....

sleep:

Psycho Chicken · 24-01-2005, 10:18 PM

What, 3 CFM?

GreenMachine · 25-01-2005, 11:18 AM

I love a good Clevo v Wheezer shitfight, complete with bulk bias and uninformed comments! Keep it up, team!

**Falcon Coupe** · 25-01-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

I've also heard storys of Windsors having a better head design then the Cleveland, but I haven't researched that much, so I won't comment until I have done so.

If Windsors have a better head design, why did Ford bother to use Cleveland heads on it to make BOSS motor ?

Gammaboy · 25-01-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

If Windsors have a better head design, why did Ford bother to use Cleveland heads on it to make BOSS motor ?

Or even to continue to use an alloy development of the 4v Clevo heads in Nascar up untill restrictor plate engines? (early eighties Nascar heads were basically a filled 4V intake with a 1/2" raised exhaust port)

I personally think Steffo should stay the F*ck out of any real technical discussion. If and when we need figures quoted from Motor or Wheels, we'll ask. Untill then. F*ck off. come back when you've sat a Clevo head next to a weeeny-sore head, and can explain the differences and wherther they're good or bad.....

Windor heads better designed? Pffft

Steffo · 25-01-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Or even to continue to use an alloy development of the 4v Clevo heads in Nascar up untill restrictor plate engines? (early eighties Nascar heads were basically a filled 4V intake with a 1/2" raised exhaust port)

I personally think Steffo should stay the F*ck out of any real technical discussion. If and when we need figures quoted from Motor or Wheels, we'll ask. Untill then. F*ck off. come back when you've sat a Clevo head next to a weeeny-sore head, and can explain the differences and wherther they're good or bad.....

Windor heads better designed? Pffft

Mmm. We should learn to read and interperet things correctly now shouldn't we? I said that I had heard that they were a superior design to Cleveland heads, but also said that I hadn't looked into the matter enough to be able to comment.

There is no need to be abusive.