Ford Australia’s record $10 million fine for “unconscionable conduct” over dodgy transmissions

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Going to hurt Ford where it hurts, not in the wallet, their reputation which was slowly being rebuilt.

Un/Fortunately (depending on your viewpoint) I don't think this will have as big an impact on Ford as many believe.

People tend to NGAF if a newer version of the same product or a different product from the same manufacturer is desirable to them (and they haven't been affected by a previous issue with said manufacturer)

[andymcgill]

I have a 2010 MB Mondeo Titanium which I have had since new. It has had all the symptoms that were mentioned in the court case. Several times I went back to the dealer under warranty with no luck. The problem now is much worse. It surges every couple of seconds and occasionally stalls. This was the first DSG brought to Australia. Next week I will take it back to the dealer and then the ACCC. Never again will I buy a car with DSG.

[EBSXR6]

[QUOTE=csv8;6124210]Why wasn't the fault found during testing before it went on sale? Surely, for many kms of testing ?/QUOTE]

I don't think they do the testing like they like they did in previous years.

How many recalls do we see today? Australian cars have had mandatory setbelts for around 50 years, ZB on sale for a couple of months and a recalll for seatblets. ACCC lists 2393 car recalls Toyota 189, Holden 179, Ford 169, Mercedes Benz 156 etc

[vztrt]

[QUOTE=EBSXR6;6124796]

Originally Posted by csv8

Why wasn't the fault found during testing before it went on sale? Surely, for many kms of testing ?/QUOTE]

I don't think they do the testing like they like they did in previous years. Also I'd say they let a lot more go in previous years.

How many recalls do we see today? Australian cars have had mandatory setbelts for around 50 years, ZB on sale for a couple of months and a recalll for seatblets. ACCC lists 2393 car recalls Toyota 189, Holden 179, Ford 169, Mercedes Benz 156 etc

There is a lot more to go wrong then in previous years.

This particular issue was the wrong choice for the car. Just remember vw ran the same rubbish box but they got away with it.

[happy1]

Hi,
There are currently 9 manufacturers of DCT / DSG transmissions.
Some of these uses wet clutches, some of these uses dry clutches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

Here is a previous thread on this forum about the technical details:
https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11410755

It seems the main problem for Fiesta / Focus is the design using dry clutches, (cheaper than wet clutches) and they are electrically actuated rather than hydraulic.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by andymcgill

I have a 2010 MB Mondeo Titanium which I have had since new. It has had all the symptoms that were mentioned in the court case. Several times I went back to the dealer under warranty with no luck. The problem now is much worse. It surges every couple of seconds and occasionally stalls. This was the first DSG brought to Australia. Next week I will take it back to the dealer and then the ACCC. Never again will I buy a car with DSG.

Sounds like an engine issue more than a gearbox problem. The mondeo’s dsg doesn’t seem to have the same issues the fiesta and focus boxes do cause they are different. Stalling isn’t caused by a gearbox usually.

[QUOTE=EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by csv8

Why wasn't the fault found during testing before it went on sale? Surely, for many kms of testing ?/QUOTE]

I don't think they do the testing like they like they did in previous years.

How many recalls do we see today? Australian cars have had mandatory setbelts for around 50 years, ZB on sale for a couple of months and a recalll for seatblets. ACCC lists 2393 car recalls Toyota 189, Holden 179, Ford 169, Mercedes Benz 156 etc

It seems to be production issues at getrag. Have seen nothing to indicate problems showed in testing, so getrag must have changed something or had quality issues imo.

If anything testing is much more comprehensive now and the protocols are much stricter. And companies can’t get away with the things they used to.

[roddy1960]

What was supposed to be the great new thing for these troublesome tranny's anyway in deference to a more conventional transmission ?.

Sounds a bit like the four wheel steer 'innovation' of the mid to late 1990's when a few manufacturers went down that path ..

A BMW big wig was asked at the time why they weren't heading down that track in a Wheels article and he responded with (paraphrasing)

"Why complicate things when our cars handle as well as they do "

He was right as it happens . Don't think it was a big success or taken on by too many at the time or since.

[jpd80]

It's basically an automated manual transmission with no slip in gears
but they screwed up by putting a cheaper dry clutch set up on it,
the wet clutch versions on Euro diesels is a dream in comparison.

Since the advent of in gear converter lock up, conventional autos
are now the way to go, Ford's new autos are all in house with no royalties.

[GCRXR6]

Surely, with the problems surfacing, Ford should have been able to take Getrag for a walk. Shouldn't have Getrag been either repairing or replacing the transmissions, as part of their responsibilities?

[happy1]

I guess Getrag's responsibilities depend on how much of the development and design instructions came from Ford in the first place. It looks like only one Fiat model and Focus/Fiesta are the only two DCT / DSG models attempting to use cheaper dry clutches.

I watched a Youtube documentary, 20 minutes of a reporter explaining Ford Australia's side of the story. It explains there have been 3 or more individual problems with the transmission. First an oil leak that makes the clutches contaminated with oil, then electronics failure where a chip overheats / breaks in the control unit causing slower processing of the gear shifting, then finally a unsuitable clutch friction material that does not handle all the heat in a hot Australian climate. For the general owner this all translates to 'sh*t car, faulty transmission'. According to Ford when all these modifications are in place there shouldn't be any further problems for up to another 100.000 km, (usual wear of clutches etc). ... that's if we believe them.

[Hemihunter]

We got our money back after a lot of return trips to dealer, and purchased a new Toyota. My wife would not even consider a ford again.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

What was supposed to be the great new thing for these troublesome tranny's anyway in deference to a more conventional transmission ?.

Sounds a bit like the four wheel steer 'innovation' of the mid to late 1990's when a few manufacturers went down that path ..

A BMW big wig was asked at the time why they weren't heading down that track in a Wheels article and he responded with (paraphrasing)

"Why complicate things when our cars handle as well as they do "

He was right as it happens . Don't think it was a big success or taken on by too many at the time or since.

Yeah, so you might want to do some further reading, times have changed and a number of manufacturers have got back onto the 4WS bandwagon. Probably the best implementation of it has been the 911 GT3.
Renault is using it on their latest Megane RS and other makes across the board are too.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

What was supposed to be the great new thing for these troublesome tranny's anyway in deference to a more conventional transmission ?.

Sounds a bit like the four wheel steer 'innovation' of the mid to late 1990's when a few manufacturers went down that path ..

A BMW big wig was asked at the time why they weren't heading down that track in a Wheels article and he responded with (paraphrasing)

"Why complicate things when our cars handle as well as they do "

He was right as it happens . Don't think it was a big success or taken on by too many at the time or since.

When they work properly they're a great transmission; the feel/power delivery of a manual, but automatic shifting.

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by happy1

I guess Getrag's responsibilities depend on how much of the development and design instructions came from Ford in the first place. It looks like only one Fiat model and Focus/Fiesta are the only two DCT / DSG models attempting to use cheaper dry clutches.

I watched a Youtube documentary, 20 minutes of a reporter explaining Ford Australia's side of the story. It explains there have been 3 or more individual problems with the transmission. First an oil leak that makes the clutches contaminated with oil, then electronics failure where a chip overheats / breaks in the control unit causing slower processing of the gear shifting, then finally a unsuitable clutch friction material that does not handle all the heat in a hot Australian climate. For the general owner this all translates to 'sh*t car, faulty transmission'. According to Ford when all these modifications are in place there shouldn't be any further problems for up to another 100.000 km, (usual wear of clutches etc). ... that's if we believe them.

Spot on there with the facts.

Every time I took the Focus for a service the only complaint was the transmission - hesitant, juddery, noisy. The hesitancy to change gears sometimes was dangerous - especially on the M4 Motorway.

So much so my wife was scared to drive it in the end, so it had to go. I didn't want to sell privately for 2 reasons - values had dropped a lot once the class action became knowledge and secondly I didn't feel comfortable passing on a car with such an obvious flaw.

Same dealer gave us a great deal on an Escape Trend demo with a couple of option packs. It's a great medium SUV, not as well equipped as the Titanium Focus, but the wife loves it.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Can't say I feel sorry for Ford.

I remember Whickman saying he refuted the ACCC's allegations last year. He refuted the issue straight up. Instead of owning it and coming out and saying we are sorry, we have muffed this up and will work towards fixing it.

I have been dealing with Ford for the last 15 years and they have never been good to deal with. Nothing has ever been fixed with no fuss as far as Ford CRC go, its always turned into some sort of **** fight where I have had to plead my case and continually chase them up.

All I can say is sucked in and I hope all affected customers get their money back plus some for the pain and suffering Ford has caused. A motor vehicle is most peoples second biggest asset so they should be able to buy a new one with confidence it will do the job for atleast 5 - 7 years. Some of these cars were failing before the first inspection.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by happy1

I watched a Youtube documentary, 20 minutes of a reporter explaining Ford Australia's side of the story. It explains there have been 3 or more individual problems with the transmission. First an oil leak that makes the clutches contaminated with oil, then electronics failure where a chip overheats / breaks in the control unit causing slower processing of the gear shifting, then finally a unsuitable clutch friction material that does not handle all the heat in a hot Australian climate. For the general owner this all translates to 'sh*t car, faulty transmission'. According to Ford when all these modifications are in place there shouldn't be any further problems for up to another 100.000 km, (usual wear of clutches etc). ... that's if we believe them.

Must have taken them awhile to work all that out, as I only know three people with DSG Focus and once they'd finally got Ford to admit there was a problem, all three had multiple "fixes" and multiple gearbox replacements - one done three times, two done twice. Two of those cars have been sold, the third is apparently now driving ok after second gearbox.

[Mercury Bullet]

I lay 50% of the blame on government for this saga.

We need lemon laws.

Transparency is good for everyone, in the long run.

[Syndrome]

Serves them right.Toilet of a company.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Serves them right.Toilet of a company.

Why do you even bother honestly. Still some butt hurt about the falcon lingering I see

[roddy1960]

The only good thing about this is that these potential disasters were NOT built in Australia .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAZjwW-pcXI

No wonder these Aussies were angry and disgusted with this imported crap . No major troubles like this with the local stuff . Not on this scale anyway.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

The only good thing about this is that these potential disasters were NOT built in Australia .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAZjwW-pcXI

No wonder these Aussies were angry and disgusted with this imported crap . No major troubles like this with the local stuff . Not on this scale anyway.

Unlike Falcon's with Milk shaked gearboxes, rust from near new, broken mixershafts, warping bake rotors, flaking paint, diff bushes.......................

As much as we love our aussie built Fords (and Holdens), they were all built to a price by cost driven American companies. They were hardly a paragon of build quality.

(This from a die hard Falcon man that has taken the rose tinted glasses off).

[olds]

The $ 10 million was not about the abysmal product , it was for the fraudulent, corrupt dealings with customers.

[anto]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Serves them right.Toilet of a company.

Love your passion for the falcon and I tend to agree. :

My sister is one of those duped by fraud . She bought her pos focus titanium new and has had no end of problems with the trans with endless excuses from the stealer. It's the Only new car she has ever been able to buy and she couldn't afford the financial hit to get out of it with the values tanking once the press and public caught on.

Should have bought the Mazda. But hey we are/ were a "ford" family.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Unlike Falcon's with Milk shaked gearboxes, rust from near new, broken mixershafts, warping bake rotors, flaking paint, diff bushes.......................

As much as we love our aussie built Fords (and Holdens), they were all built to a price by cost driven American companies. They were hardly a paragon of build quality.

(This from a die hard Falcon man that has taken the rose tinted glasses off).

Swings and roundabouts though.

My Volvo is no more reliable than any ford/Holden I've owned.
The big difference is paint quality, metal thickness and they don't rust.
It's also over 2.2 tonnes for a sedan!

But wait until they break down. $2000 for rhs mirror.
$4000 for brakes.
$1800 for coil packs.

Our cars may break, but they are at least affordable to fix.

That said, I agree cost cutting has gone too far.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Unlike Falcon's with Milk shaked gearboxes, rust from near new, broken mixershafts, warping bake rotors, flaking paint, diff bushes.......................

As much as we love our aussie built Fords (and Holdens), they were all built to a price by cost driven American companies. They were hardly a paragon of build quality.

(This from a die hard Falcon man that has taken the rose tinted glasses off).

I've had six Falcons , still got two and I've never had any of those issues other than a bit of rust in the XE but it was a farm owned car . Apparently Mr Matthews the original owner barely ever washed the cow **** from under the guards . Guess where the rust appeared a few years after I bought it . I must be just blessed or something with those other problems .

They were/are XB , XE , EF , AU (still going great) , BA and FG (current as well) . Single biggest issue was an A/C leak in the EF , a dodgy GPS with the BA Fairmont Ghia and an issue with original AU Stereo when it began picking and choosing if it'd read a CD or not .

Not perfect cars but not bloody bad either built to a price or not .

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I've had six Falcons , still got two and I've never had any of those issues other than a bit of rust in the XE but it was a farm owned car . Apparently Mr Matthews the original owner barely ever washed the cow **** from under the guards . Guess where the rust appeared a few years after I bought it . I must be just blessed or something with those other problems .

They were/are XB , XE , EF , AU (still going great) , BA and FG (current as well) . Single biggest issue was an A/C leak in the EF , a dodgy GPS with the BA Fairmont Ghia and an issue with original AU Stereo when it began picking and choosing if it'd read a CD or not .

Not perfect cars but not bloody bad either built to a price or not .

You are right, they were great cars and something the buying public are probably only now realising that they are going to be pretty hard to replace in the years ahead.

Imported or not, all cars have their issues. The reality is, it comes down to how the manufactures react to them and, sadly, Ford didn't own up to the issues and fought their customers until they got taken to the principles office and given cuts.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

I've had six Falcons , still got two and I've never had any of those issues other than a bit of rust in the XE but it was a farm owned car . Apparently Mr Matthews the original owner barely ever washed the cow **** from under the guards . Guess where the rust appeared a few years after I bought it . I must be just blessed or something with those other problems .

They were/are XB , XE , EF , AU (still going great) , BA and FG (current as well) . Single biggest issue was an A/C leak in the EF , a dodgy GPS with the BA Fairmont Ghia and an issue with original AU Stereo when it began picking and choosing if it'd read a CD or not .

Not perfect cars but not bloody bad either built to a price or not .

Yep and a BTR reconditioning at 170,000km is looking like a walk in the park compared to these gearboxes.

In trying to save the last spec of juice from drivetrains in the late 2000s, engineers developed dry clutch DSG, twinchargers, direct injection collecting carbon furiously on the back of valves and clogging motors, the experience of hesitation on acceleration from both dsg and cvt, whining flaring of cvt on hard acceleration... Diesel became popular and the joy of $1k injector replacements and blocked dpf filters became known.

Mazda refined its conventional torque converter autos and developed skyactiv engines, with skyactivX in the wings, probably the most exciting ICE advancement of late. And they are reliable.

Toyota stuck with their hybrid system and delivered, and now its expanding. Also note the new Tojo direct injection petrol motors also inject indirectly onto the back of the valves... And they are reliable.

This is what Ford is up against now they compete directly without a unique selling point platform like the Falcon.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

You are right, they were great cars and something the buying public are probably only now realising that they are going to be pretty hard to replace in the years ahead.

Imported or not, all cars have their issues. The reality is, it comes down to how the manufactures react to them and, sadly, Ford didn't own up to the issues and fought their customers until they got taken to the principles office and given cuts.

YEP...True all round ..

[hackney]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

YEP...True all round ..

As far as I am are concerned Ford are “Toxic” the way they treat their customers.Just like VAG.Cheers

[hackney]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Unlike Falcon's with Milk shaked gearboxes, rust from near new, broken mixershafts, warping bake rotors, flaking paint, diff bushes.......................

As much as we love our aussie built Fords (and Holdens), they were all built to a price by cost driven American companies. They were hardly a paragon of build quality.

(This from a die hard Falcon man that has taken the rose tinted glasses off).

Exactly!You should NOT have to go & spend money on “mods” to improve a vehicles reliability,unfortunately with Ford you do.At least with the Korean brands & Japanese brands you do not seem to have anywhere near the issues that our locals did.Cheers