Well done Harold Scruby

Deary me, more on Harold

[Wally]

Originally Posted by T6Ute

.............
I didn't join to fight for the flag. I joined to fight for my country. To me the Union Jack in the corner represents The Queen and or Great Britain. I think our country is mature enough not to need these ties back to her or it.

We need a flag that represents what Australia is or has become.

But this is an argument that can probably go on forever......

Did you really join to fight for the country or join for other reasons? My observation of acquaintances in the armed services is that they joined for a myriad of different reasons:- for personal development, family tradition, continuity of employment, escaping the poverty trap, adventure, training, pension plan,etc. Some were even conscripted and stayed on.

The flag was never as important to Australians as the welfare of the troops themselves. That may have changed, but I suspect the flag has nowhere the significance that it has, say in the USA.

The Union Jack has a pedigree dating back to the beginning of the 17th century and as a mature nation we should be able to acknowledge that our success has largely been because of the UK heritage and we should not shrink away from that. Wait long enough and we'll be the only nation left with it anyway.

The problem with selecting a new design is that it will unlikely have any tradition, something the armed forces pride themselves on. A new design will invariably be a collaboration of opposing views, with the usual Eureka delegates, the Monarchist delegates, Aboriginal dlegates, the Republican delegates, etc the result being a flag that ends up with the same proportion of people disatisfied and disenfranchised.

As it is the design is distinctive, albeit similar to Australia's seventh state, New Zealand. If we aren't careful we could end up with Ayres Rock as the centrepiece, a boxing kangaroo in one corner, an FJ Holden in another, a victor lawnmower making up the third and a hills hoist in the remainder, all girt by a montage border of Gold Coast hirise.

[melbzetec]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

the objection I have to changing the flag is many soldiers fought and some died under this flag to change the flag would disshouour them!

It wasn't officially the national flag until 1953. Until then we had the blue ensign and red ensign.

I don't agree that changing the flag dishonours anyone.

Many many soldiers find it an absolute bloody insult to have the Union Jack in the top corner. Be interesting to ask those that were abandonded by the British in Singapore what they think of the Union Jack.

ps Scruby is an idiot. However his best one was his call to ban window tinting on cars because it can hide terrorist activities!!

[Fev]

read this:

http://www.walk.com.au/pedestriancou...asp?PageID=643

thought that was pretty funny

[FalconXR6]

Why change the Aussie flag?
It's a nice Ford blue...

As for Harold, it's well documented that his Pedestrian Council is the biggest load of bull this side of Holden's 99c fuel cap and weight reduction scheme...

[kiwikid10]

If you change the flag the all those Aussie olympians will have to get plastic surgery to remove their tatoos!
Not to metion every man and his dog who have them or the southern cross tatooed on their insert here (Forearm,upper arm, back,chest).

[DayTE]

Originally Posted by Wally

Did you really join to fight for the country or join for other reasons? My observation of acquaintances in the armed services is that they joined for a myriad of different reasons:- for personal development, family tradition, continuity of employment, escaping the poverty trap, adventure, training, pension plan,etc. Some were even conscripted and stayed on.



The problem with selecting a new design is that it will unlikely have any tradition, something the armed forces pride themselves on. A new design will invariably be a collaboration of opposing views, with the usual Eureka delegates, the Monarchist delegates, Aboriginal dlegates, the Republican delegates, etc the result being a flag that ends up with the same proportion of people disatisfied and disenfranchised.

As it is the design is distinctive, albeit similar to Australia's seventh state, New Zealand. If we aren't careful we could end up with Ayres Rock as the centrepiece, a boxing kangaroo in one corner, an FJ Holden in another, a victor lawnmower making up the third and a hills hoist in the remainder, all girt by a montage border of Gold Coast hirise.

Admittaly I didn't just join to fight, I joined for more than one reason. Fighting for my country was one of them. Whilst serving I voluntereed for all deployments, East Timor, Fiji, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

But you do make a fair point on selection of a new flag.

[steamin63]

[QUOTE=sourbastard]So the only people who have a say about this country are those that served in the military? The military exist to defend democracy, not to replace it. The bloke at centrelink scratching his bum has as much right to support whatever proposals he wishes, no matter how stupid. If you dont like that, maybe you should leave ay?
have another read of my post. did i say anything about serving in the military. it's about the men and women who came from all four corners of the globe and built this great nation and those who strive to keep it great. by the way i'm not going anywhere. ay.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Wally

The Union Jack has a pedigree dating back to the beginning of the 17th century and as a mature nation we should be able to acknowledge that our success has largely been because of the UK heritage and we should not shrink away from that. Wait long enough and we'll be the only nation left with it anyway.

Our success has been despite the U.K. heritage.

People seem to have a strange delusion of British rule of Australia. It was one of exploitation and self-interest simple as that.

Britain has NEVER defended Australia and they have done nothing but exploit it for their own gain and cast it away when we were of no more use.

-During colonial times Britain would often undercut Australian workers by importing Chinese and other labor, steal land and mining rights from free settlers and oversaw a disgustingly corrupt colonial regime.

-During the depression Australia was hit hard by debts to Britain. War debts from serving the British Empire in WW1. Britain would not give us an interest rate cut despite receiving one from the United States itself.

-During WW2 Britain abandoned Australia and refused to allow Australian troops to return to Australia to defend from Japanese invasion. Curtin lucily told Britain where to stick it.

-After years of economic servitude to Britain. Britains thanks was to enter the European Economic Community. Thank God for the U.S. and Japan.

off the Union Jack and lets have a Eureka Stockade flag. We should be a republic otherwise we will never be taken seriously.

[GORDZ]

great post sleekism

[Fev]

The Democratic Republic of Australia ftw! i dont mind if we change the flag at all, sure theres alot of history in our flag and but its a symbol of our soverignty(sp) to britain so until that changes i doubt the flag will either

[gtxb67]

personally i do not care about whether we change the flag or become a republic. however, i would probably vote to keep the way we are. i do not see how anything would change that much, and i do not see how spending millions of dollars to achieve whatever change we get is worth it

with the flag, it is true as sour bastard suggested that it is to represent the people of the country and therefore change may be right. as wally said though we cannot please everyone and there will be as many people who dislike a new flag as those who dislike the current flag. do we change it every 10-20 years because our people change. if it was to represent the australian people it may even have a cat with a ball of string on it, because that is considered one of australia's greatest identities

i believe we have not enough worthwhile culture as it is now - changing things will take what we have away. i love the country and the people and the land the way it is. my love for the place will not become greater, just because we get a new flag or become a republic. if anyone elses does, maybe the issue is not the flag or monarchy/republic situation

also we should remember where we came from (whether good or bad). most people today have immigrant blood in them, and you do not see them forgetting about their country of origin because they are in australia. maybe we should remember we came from brittain and that is why we are the country we are today - free
as an example my wife is a filipina. even when she becomes a citizen, she will always have philippine heritage and will never forget that. we will always have british heritage and we should not forget that neither in my opinion

[bd737]

Originally Posted by GORDZ

great post sleekism

+1.

I would have to say the European migrant influx of the late 40s/early 50s (i.e. Italians, Greeks, Germans and eastern Europeans) did more for Australia than the English ever did.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by sleekism

We should be a republic otherwise we will never be taken seriously.

What utter trollop.

[Abacus]

Whether or not we are a republic is entirely irrelevant to the world's perception of the character of Australia and Australians. What is important is that our constitutional framework is that which we have chosen to maintain, regardless of the prejudices of those who are not part of our country. If we have chosen to remain a constitutional monarchy, so be it. If other countries don't like it, tough. It's our constitution, not theirs.

As to the flag, those who suggest that we should change it because they percieve that the rest of the world look down on us are suffering from a perverse form of cultural cringe. It is a ludicrous perception and of itself demonstrates a lack of pride and confidence in our country. Those advocating that we should change it for this reason are, in effect, suggesting that the rest of the world should dictate what content is permissible on our flag. What kind of gutless and weak national psyche does this demonstrate?

The question of whether or not the flag represents people who have migrated to Australia from the 4 corners of the world is also irrelevant. Those migrants chose to come to Australia because of what this country is, and who we are are. They chose to become part of this country as is, regardless of the flag. The flag was there when they came, and represents the fabric of the country they chose to become part of. If anything, the fact that so many people have chosen to become part of Australia, with our current flag, is a source of pride and yet another reason why it should not be changed.

I find the assertion that the flag should be changed because it it some way affects the sensibilities of new Australians who have chosen to become part of this country, with its flag, absolutely offensive. If the matter of the flag is such a major and fundamental negative issue with a newcomer, then it is best he not come.

If citizens of any other nation don't like our flag, they can also get knotted. It's our flag, not theirs. Australians, as a nation, have not chosen to change it, and I'm proud to live under it.

[colossus]

I originally thought it could do with a change - get rid of that pesky union jack for instance. But having considered what the new design is likely to become - given that this country seems to have a vocal minority of greeny, far left wing, hippy, indigenous loving bludgers then I say leave it.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Whether or not we are a republic is entirely irrelevant to the world's perception of the character of Australia and Australians. What is important is that our constitutional framework is that which we have chosen to maintain, regardless of the prejudices of those who are not part of our country. If we have chosen to remain a constitutional monarchy, so be it. If other countries don't like it, tough. It's our constitution, not theirs.

As to the flag, those who suggest that we should change it because they percieve that the rest of the world look down on us are suffering from a perverse form of cultural cringe. It is a ludicrous perception and of itself demonstrates a lack of pride and confidence in our country. Those advocating that we should change it for this reason are, in effect, suggesting that the rest of the world should dictate what content is permissible on our flag. What kind of gutless and weak national psyche does this demonstrate?

The question of whether or not the flag represents people who have migrated to Australia from the 4 corners of the world is also irrelevant. Those migrants chose to come to Australia because of what this country is, and who we are are. They chose to become part of this country as is, regardless of the flag. The flag was there when they came, and represents the fabric of the country they chose to become part of. If anything, the fact that so many people have chosen to become part of Australia, with our current flag, is a source of pride and yet another reason why it should not be changed.

I find the assertion that the flag should be changed because it it some way affects the sensibilities of new Australians who have chosen to become part of this country, with its flag, absolutely offensive. If the matter of the flag is such a major and fundamental negative issue with a newcomer, then it is best he not come.

If citizens of any other nation don't like our flag, they can also get knotted. It's our flag, not theirs. Australians, as a nation, have not chosen to change it, and I'm proud to live under it.

The point is that the Union Jack represents that we are part of the British Empire when for all purposes the British Empire no longer exists and we no longer have anything to do with the U.K.

Econmically and Politically our future lies with Asia and until we are a republic Asia will view us as an outsider, a dinosaur from the colonial error and even more dangerously a great empty continent ready for colonisation.

Our flag has NEVER representated our country. We began as a prison colony a majority Celtic (my fathers ancestor was sent to Australia from Ireland for forming a trade union), then a bastion for skilled Europeans following WW2 (my mothers father fled from Germany and worked in an asbestos mine), then a home for all people looking to better themselves (my mothers mother came from New Zealand during the 80's recession).

We have many things in this country but what we don't have is pride thus we concern ourselves with football, cricket, renovating and cars and never of the big picture. Our soldiers don't enlist to fight for our country they enlist to shoot guns, learn a trade and make money.

We are selling ourselves short we should be a shining light of liberty and democracy in the East not a nation of self-centred, lazy dinosaurs.

[colossus]

Originally Posted by sleekism

We have many things in this country but what we don't have is pride thus we concern ourselves with football, cricket, renovating and cars and never of the big picture. Our soldiers don't enlist to fight for our country they enlist to shoot guns, learn a trade and make money.

We are selling ourselves short we should be a shining light of liberty and democracy in the East not a nation of self-centred, lazy dinosaurs.

So what are you suggesting we do? Become more like America?

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by colossus

So what are you suggesting we do? Become more like America?

No become more like Australia. The real Australia.

[colossus]

Originally Posted by sleekism

No become more like Australia. The real Australia.

which is?

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by colossus

which is?

Which is epitomised by the flag we have already got. So leave it as is.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Which is epitomised by the flag we have already got. So leave it as is.

How so??? We are no longer tied economically, politically or militarily to Britain.

I don't see Indonesia with the Dutch flag in it's corner, Lithuania with the German flag in it's corner.

There is no Britain coming to our aid if we are invaded, we will not die economically if we stop trading with Britain and we no longer follow the latest fashion trends from London.

Our flag should have been changed when Britain abandoned Australia in WW2.

We should have the Eureka Stockade flag. A symbol of working class Australias struggle for democracy, liberty and fair working conditions and property rights.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by sleekism

How so??? We are no longer tied economically, politically or militarily to Britain.

I don't see Indonesia with the Dutch flag in it's corner, Lithuania with the German flag in it's corner.

There is no Britain coming to our aid if we are invaded, we will not die economically if we stop trading with Britain and we no longer follow the latest fashion trends from London.

Our flag should have been changed when Britain abandoned Australia in WW2.

We should have the Eureka Stockade flag. A symbol of working class Australias struggle for democracy, liberty and fair working conditions and property rights.

I am not going to get bogged down in this thread. This is my last post on the matter.

You, like many people pushing this barrow, seem to have a major insecurity complex, which manifests itself in the cultural cringe I referred to in an earlier post.

So the Indonesians don’t have a Dutch emblem in the corner of their flag? Good on ‘em. It’s their choice. Lithuania doesn’t have a German emblem in the corner of theirs? Same. It’s their decision, not mine, and not ours. The fact that other countries have chosen to change their flag doesn’t mean we have to mindlessly and pathetically follow.

I couldn’t give a rat’s bum what the Indonesian flag, Lithuanian flag, or anybody else’s flag looks like. Nor should they care what our flag looks like. It’s none of their business.

If Australians, as a nation, have the balls and audacity to hang on to our flag in our current form, regardless of who might try to claim possession of same part of it, that’s a good thing.

So we can’t rely on the UK coming to our aid in a conflict and we are not tied to them economically? Well and good. I don’t care. It’s nothing to do with our flag.

So the flag should have, in your opinion, been changed 60 years ago? Well it wasn’t. There is no connection between this non-event and the question of whether it ought to be retained now.

In fact, given that the union flag/southern cross combo now has a further 60 years of our unique heritage attached to it, there’s all the more reason to keep it. Anybody who says we should change it because it draws, in part, from someone else’s national emblem can quietly bugger off. It’s ours now, and has been for a long time.

And as for incorporating some motif depicting the Eureka stockade is concerned, FFS grow up. Apart from the fact that that little event has been utterly and irrationally been blow out of all proportion, I wouldn’t want to be associated with it, and the vast majority of people who have either come to this country or been born here over the past half century or more either wouldn’t know about it, wouldn’t care about it, or both.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Abacus

I am not going to get bogged down in this thread. This is my last post on the matter.

You, like many people pushing this barrow, seem to have a major insecurity complex, which manifests itself in the cultural cringe I referred to in an earlier post.

So the Indonesians don’t have a Dutch emblem in the corner of their flag? Good on ‘em. It’s their choice. Lithuania doesn’t have a German emblem in the corner of theirs? Same. It’s their decision, not mine, and not ours. The fact that other countries have chosen to change their flag doesn’t mean we have to mindlessly and pathetically follow.

I couldn’t give a rat’s bum what the Indonesian flag, Lithuanian flag, or anybody else’s flag looks like. Nor should they care what our flag looks like. It’s none of their business.

If Australians, as a nation, have the balls and audacity to hang on to our flag in our current form, regardless of who might try to claim possession of same part of it, that’s a good thing.

So we can’t rely on the UK coming to our aid in a conflict and we are not tied to them economically? Well and good. I don’t care. It’s nothing to do with our flag.

So the flag should have, in your opinion, been changed 60 years ago? Well it wasn’t. There is no connection between this non-event and the question of whether it ought to be retained now.

In fact, given that the union flag/southern cross combo now has a further 60 years of our unique heritage attached to it, there’s all the more reason to keep it. Anybody who says we should change it because it draws, in part, from someone else’s national emblem can quietly bugger off. It’s ours now, and has been for a long time.

And as for incorporating some motif depicting the Eureka stockade is concerned, FFS grow up. Apart from the fact that that little event has been utterly and irrationally been blow out of all proportion, I wouldn’t want to be associated with it, and the vast majority of people who have either come to this country or been born here over the past half century or more either wouldn’t know about it, wouldn’t care about it, or both.

Oi settle down mate it's just a debate.

It's nothing to do with culture cringe. I love Australia in fact I have 2 large Australian flags hanging in my loungeroom.

But frankly our flag sucks. It doesn't instill the same passion as the U.S. flag to a yank or my family crest.

It's not our flag.

[DayTE]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Which is epitomised by the flag we have already got. So leave it as is.

How?

Yes it's got the Southern Cross. Which can only be seen by the southern hemisphere.

It also has the six pointed star which represents the states (or so I was ever taught through school).

It also has the Union Jack in the corner. Which represents our soverign and our "settling country/empire".

OK, fair call on the last one, but there are also a lot of Australians that would say this represents the 'Invaders".

I'm not so much on that line of thinking, but are we not a country on our own now that doesn't rely on other countries (whether they be GB, Indonesia, Japan, U.S.A, China) to "look after" us. And in the event of a major war or conflict, I think the we would be backed up by GB whether we had a U/J in the corner or not. Sam as we support them in other worldly conflicts.

[67XRT]

Must admit that I did not give a great deal of thought to the subject of the flag as a younger bloke however, after leaving my family for six months standing on the soil of another country, automatic rifle in hand, pistol on hip, best mate at the end of a lead and weighed down by kevlar and 20 kilos of kit, you get an appreciation for that little piece of cloth on your arm representing your country.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but dont disregard the value of something if you have no knowledge, regard or personal attachment to it.

The flag represents our history and should not be sacrificed for the momentary whims of the like of Harold Scruby. Would love five minutes alone with him.......

[MethodX]

Until they change it, a lot of people cant feel truly Aussie.

Not like Aus would leave the commonwealth or anything.

[bd737]

Yes, the Union Jack to me epitomises the English monarch and imperialism. It's a conflict of interest having it on our flag.

[Boss 302]

T6Ute hate to do it to you, I apologise as I am not having a go at you, but the Federation star has seven points.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sleekism

But frankly our flag sucks. It doesn't instill the same passion as the U.S. flag to a yank or my family crest.

one of the reasons the us is more patriotic than aus is simple. we have something they do not have. a tall poppy syndrome. unlike america we love to cut down anything and everyone of ours that we should respect or perceive to have it better than us

also i believe they still pledge allegiance to their flag every week at school don't they. they have a big thanksgiving dinner every year, when to us australia day is all about the cricket and a day off work. the flag has nothing to do with it - it is the culture of the country/people

a flag cannot make anyone feel at home in a country. it is just a piece of matieral with some pretty/unpretty colours. it is the people and culture that makes us feel at home. for example, unfortunately here everyone wants an amercian, german or italian car. everything needs to be imported to validate us. we should stop looking out to feel at home and enjoy what we have. a new flag will do nothing to change that


while i do not care either way, except the total waste of money changing flags/country status will be, there is a point, why we should be happy to keep the union jack. when you move out of your parents home and become independant, do you change your family name, because your parents are no longer looking after you or providing for you. of course not, you remember where you came from. maybe this country should too