NT Speed limits?

[Trevor 57]

Your long winded statement still has not convinced me or any other like thinking person that a metal sign on the side of the road increases the road toll. I was in NT only very recently, with the 130 limit and there are still plenty of people exceeding that limit I can assure you.

Again, I will reiterate, it is the person that kills themselves and others, not a metal road sign or a preceived police presence behind trees.

Statistically, world wide, lower speed limits, like seat belts have been proven to save lives.

In 1974 in Victoria, we peaked with road deaths at 1034, lest year it was in the mid 300's. Yes, there are lots of factors contributing to that, like car design, but many of the things you so passionately hate have also contributed to a lower road toll.

Maybe you should subscribe to pay TV and watch some of the documentaries that I have seen on the appalling loss of life in huge crashes on the Autobahn of Germany, and the infrastructure that they have to have in place to respond to such high speed horrific motor vehicles crashes, the cost is extrodinary.

Fatigue is not caused by going slow, this is one feild I can almost claim to be expert in, fatigue has to do with lack of sleep, physical tiredness, stress, boredom, personal issues.

And even going fast for long durations has been acknowledge as creating fatigue in drivers because of the extra mental requirements required to keep the concentration at such high levels.

Take your blinkers off.

[new2ford]

Big Trev and Keepleft you're both right in various ways. In the end a lot of it boils down to driver training and competence and indeed personal fitness to hold a driver's licence. There are a lot of drivers here who couldn't be trusted to perform competently and safely under a destriction - but most could. It only takes one of the incompetents (who shouldn't have a licence) to lead to one of the gotterdammerung conflagrations that occurs in Germany occasionally.

I think one thing that would help is more liberal policing that would take some of the psychological pressure off to drive in an uncritical switched-off mothered fashion (as in Victoria). Common sense dictates that it is necessary to exceed the posted limit in some cases (just as it is commonsense to drive under the speed limit if conditions are adverse). On NSW north coast there is a frustrating long drive where traffic gets held behind something that is slower (frustration would be a major potential contributer to accidents). Yet there are overtaking lanes that have either a speed camera or radar unit stationed halfway up the overtaking section. So when drivers get a chance to overcome the frustration by overtaking the obstacle, they are thwarted by the overriding need to raise state revenue (nothing to do with road safety). There are many situations like this where the 'speed limit' doesn't work because it is enforced without common sense and contrary to the interests of safer driving.

But I do tend to believe that in Australia improved driver training and more care in handing out licences are needed before a widespread introduction of speed derestriction. But yes, derestrict in areas where it is safe to do so - motorways, clear country and outback highways.

[Fast Eddie]

As a matter of interests, of the 44 fatalaties what's the percentage breakdown amongst N.T. residents/Indigenous Australian and tourists?

[Bobman]

What I'd like to know is why Victoria's road toll remains static or even higher each year when we have; More speed cameras (mobile and at intersections), more rubbish 5km/h off campaigns - yet this has failed to lower the road toll at all.

In fact the counter argument against Trev's reply is that driving slower causes you to lose concentration as opposed to driving faster on a Freeway. The mind can get bored very quickly when driving on long straight roads at a snail's pace.

[bcr2734]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

So, are you blaming the introduction of speed limits, demerit point system and cameras for the increase in the road toll? I reckon you would be a brave person if you did.

where do you put the blame then. i always say that conditions are what drivers need experience in. not road rules. i feel for the poor p platers

[Trevor 57]

I put the blame fairly and squarely on the drivers shoulders, we all know to do the right thing, but we choose not to, we make a conscious decision to be smarter than all the studies, all the proof. We choose to overtake when, "shyte maybe I shouldn't have, I thought that on-coming car was further away". We choose to sit up cars behinds at 100km/h on suburban freeways, we all the studies prove that it requires alt least 85 metres to stop, yet we sit 5-10 metres behind vehicles. we know we shouldn't coz that car isn't going to stop immediately, but whoa, shyte they just did. And we all know that everyone stops at Stop signs, right? No accidents happen when someone pulls out without having a real good look do they? - Right!

Our licensing standards in Australia are far too low for our prevailing conditions, we can go on about post licence training, but in the end, you are trained to pass a pretty pathetic licence test, believe me I know, I have worked around the system for nigh on 20 years.

I have been saying for a very long time, that as animals, we are highest risk taking of all animals, no other animal takes the risks we do. And at certain ages in our development into adulthood we are higher risk takers than in any other part of our lives and that age range is 16-25, and what do we do at that age, we give the highest risk takers in our society the right to operate one of the most dangerous inventions ever produced, how smart are we? - NOT!

[AUIII XR8 MAN]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

So, are you blaming the introduction of speed limits, demerit point system and cameras for the increase in the road toll? I reckon you would be a brave person if you did.

But goes to show that its not the answer to the problem.

[Keepleft]

Big_Trev - I put the blame fairly and squarely on the drivers shoulders, we all know to do the right thing, but we choose not to, we make a conscious decision to be smarter than all the studies, all the proof

Speed limit conditioning.

We choose to overtake when, "shyte maybe I shouldn't have, I thought that on-coming car was further away".

Speed limit conditioning.

We choose to sit up cars behinds at 100km/h on suburban freeways, we all the studies prove that it requires alt least 85 metres to stop, yet we sit 5-10 metres behind vehicles.

Speed limit conditioning. Historically 80% of crashes are reported below the speed-limit.

The media spectacular ones naturally make the news.

And we all know that everyone stops at Stop signs, right? No accidents happen when someone pulls out without having a real good look do they? - Right!

A large percentage of crashes occure at unsignalised intersections. On rural roads on bends etc.

Our licensing standards in Australia are far too low for our prevailing conditions, we can go on about post licence training, but in the end, you are trained to pass a pretty pathetic licence test, believe me I know, I have worked around the system for nigh on 20 years.

Tell me if you don't mind, what field or agency?

I have been saying for a very long time, that as animals, we are highest risk taking of all animals, no other animal takes the risks we do. And at certain ages in our development into adulthood we are higher risk takers than in any other part of our lives and that age range is 16-25, and what do we do at that age, we give the highest risk takers in our society the right to operate one of the most dangerous inventions ever produced, how smart are we? -

But we'll let that age group go off and fight a war, but christ forbid, never allow em to drive damned it!!!. Tough titties I'm afraid.

A NSW P plater has a 0.001% chance of dying in a crash when compared to the number held on license at any given time, yet are, as in all mechanised nations in the world, over represented in crash outcome, but not only that, in many other fields too.

The German autobahn has in fact on of the lowest crash rates of any Europen motorway, and certainly is much improved over the United States results. The Europeans are simply 'smarter', they accept 'speed' as a given and work with it (vehicle standards/standard equipment lists/road construction), as opposed to the Australian approach of working 'against' it.

http://www.rsd.cz/en

It is appropriate for Germany to not adopt speed-limits, that will reduce their national productivity, reduce tourisim throughput. They are better advised to advocate other states adopt derestriction, rather than the growing Euro/Middle Eastern norm of higher speed limits beyond the 'slow' 130km/h.

The world does not need more Australian 'expertise' in this field. As for NZ, certainly not them.


That said, NSW does allow Jordan to use some of our text in their driver manual.

Victorians are not taught lane discipline in relation to three-laned motorway class roads.

[Keepleft]

http://www.bast.de/cln_007/nn_76770/...rsunfaelle.pdf

Small Pdf for amusement, 33kb.

Another, note the yanks - higher speed-limits and same old pre 55Mph-88Km/h - stupid vehicle equipment list requirements (poor), construction standards, road layout markings, poor driver handbook information etc and so on. Basically faster speed without the 'smarts'.

Yankside will improve as more of its states adopt the world road and signage markings/requirements, improved vehicle constructions and improved driver manuals, currently at level 'dumb', except NYS DMV.
http://www.cemt.org/irtad/IRTADPUBLI...lease_2007.pdf

[Elks]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

So, are you blaming the introduction of speed limits, demerit point system and cameras for the increase in the road toll? I reckon you would be a brave person if you did.

I can't speak for others but I'm not sure his is. But the stats (so often rammed down our throats here in Vic) clearly show the number to date have gone up and to that end it is very easy to argue that these measures have had no positive benefit.

10 years of draconian tax collection in vic have coincided with a slight improvement in the road toll that could just a easily be attributed to vehicle design or road construction.

I would love to see the pollies from the two states argue their cases together. It would be hilarious if it were not so sad.

[troppo]

Mr Stone had a hand in this IMO. Territorians were in favour of becoming a state when the last referendum was held, it was vetoed because we were limited to choices of "The Shane Stone way" or "not at all". While most of us were keen to go ahead, Mr Stone attached a shitload of strings to his way making not at all seem the lesser of two evils. As such, the Feds can still ride roughshod over Territory laws...open speed limits, euthanasia, mandatory sentencing and indigenous intervention to name but a few in Johhny's time. No surprise then that Mr Stone has gone a long way in the Howard Government since losing here.

[Keepleft]

A little bit of NT limit discussionary history from ABC:-
* Feds did not threaten to withold road funding if NT didn't contract a speed-limit, that was a rumour put to bed by them some time ago. Discussion to impose a limit was on the table however. ALP NT contracted the limit after a relese of a report, you can see all that at their website.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...27/1208205.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...06/1943722.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...28/1208866.htm

NT Road Safety Report - that resulted in speed-limits, and increased toll.
http://www.saferroaduse.nt.gov.au/keyfindings.html

[Trevor 57]

from the bottom link in your post, and you are arguing that they shouldn't impose speed limits, goodness me, and the stats are from 2004-2005

The following table is compiled from Australian Transport Safety Bureau data. It compares the number of people killed on average each year per 100 000 population, and shows that your risk of being killed on NT roads is about three times greater than anywhere else in Australia

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

from the bottom link in your post, and you are arguing that they shouldn't impose speed limits, goodness me, and the stats are from 2004-2005

Yes Trev, the statistics tell it all, no context is necessary.

Number of drunk P platers killed while driving Ferraris over 200km/h in Australia since federation = 0 therefore all P platers should get drunk and drive Ferraris flat out to ensure their safety.
Phase 3 GTHOs are super safe too, no one killed in one of them for years.
Last year the road toll on Norfolk Island was 50/100,000, twice that of NT in 2004 and the max speed limit in the whole country is only 50km/h.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, the weapons of choice by the dogmatic narrow minded social engineers that seem to abound in modern society.

Look at the NT figures again but take off all indigenous killed either by being run over while intoxicated or crashing with 73 people on board in an unregistered vehicle on a dirt track in a community.
Then look at the 2007 figures compared to 2004.
Of course you won't, it will not support your agenda.

I wonder if we could lower the whole road toll by having instructors who teach people to drive safely and understand the skills necessary to operate a motor vehicle rather than to be fixated on speed limits and obeying inappropraite rules rather than making reasoned judgements?

Or is that just a little bit close to home........

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

It's not rocket surgery.

These garbage policies were set in place and made law and the road toll went up. Same as in Europe and the US, lowering speed limits increases the 'road toll'.

Please explain how?

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes Trev, the statistics tell it all, no context is necessary.

Number of drunk P platers killed while driving Ferraris over 200km/h in Australia since federation = 0 therefore all P platers should get drunk and drive Ferraris flat out to ensure their safety.
Phase 3 GTHOs are super safe too, no one killed in one of them for years.
Last year the road toll on Norfolk Island was 50/100,000, twice that of NT in 2004 and the max speed limit in the whole country is only 50km/h.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, the weapons of choice by the dogmatic narrow minded social engineers that seem to abound in modern society.

Look at the NT figures again but take off all indigenous killed either by being run over while intoxicated or crashing with 73 people on board in an unregistered vehicle on a dirt track in a community.
Then look at the 2007 figures compared to 2004.
Of course you won't, it will not support your agenda.

I wonder if we could lower the whole road toll by having instructors who teach people to drive safely and understand the skills necessary to operate a motor vehicle rather than to be fixated on speed limits and obeying inappropraite rules rather than making reasoned judgements?

Or is that just a little bit close to home........

You've survived to write on this forum, how many of your friends and acquaintinances haven't?

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Please explain how?

Behavioural sciences among one.

As with Montana, NT if Germany introduced an absolute speed limit on its autobahn, its toll by any measure would go up, period.

Going in circles here, I have posted some basic links, read and comprehend the material. The NT post you highlight is 'typical' of the emotive rubbish used by speed-limit proponents and is duly ignored.

If you seek to continue to dumb populaces down in this subject, by the introduction of low speed limits on otherwise safe roads, or other measures, then expect disinterest in the driving task to amplify with expected negative outcome.

Been through all of this hundreds of times before here and at other forums.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

If you seek to continue to dumb populaces down in this subject, by the introduction of low speed limits on otherwise safe roads, or other measures, then expect disinterest in the driving task to amplify with expected negative outcome.

Says it all really. The only thing I'd say on Big Trev's side is that there is a big number of drivers with skill deficiency here, which warps the assumption that European practices could be adopted with same parameters. But then of course, going round in a circle, that skill deficiency results from poor training - as flappist says - without imparting the skills of reasoned judgements and independent thinking. Instead many operated in nannied fashion uncritically watching the speed signs and radar traps. And how many driving school cars do I see failing to keep left on multi laned roads? The skill base needs major overhaul.

As well, Big Trev gives us all the negatives and things that go wrong but the other side of the coin is that (notwithstanding a poorer skills base than Europe) it mostly goes right. And when it does go wrong you can be just as dead at 80 kph as at 130 kph.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

You've survived to write on this forum, how many of your friends and acquaintinances haven't?

Ah so if we do not exceed 100km/h we will live for ever? Oh and no one I know has ever been killed in a car accident although many people I knew have died.

Big Trev you seem to have a fixation on numbers. Using the seat belt arguement is not helping your position, seat belts save lives is accidents involving stationary vehicles.

You have complained about drivers following too closely yet you promote the idea of following rules rather than guidelines.

This is a philosophical arguement and is prone to bias. I see things from the point of view of a person who regularaly drives long distances in regional Queensland, you are a Victorian where 1000km is an extremely long journey.

Open speed limits do not mean everyone does 300km/h, it means you can travel at the speed with which you feel confortable and safe whether that is 80km/h or 160km/h.

How many times have you seen someone in Victoria doing 90km/h being pushed but a line of 50 cars because every time there is a chance to overtake no one will exceed 100 and so only 2 or 3 get past. People get frustrated and angry and then accidents are many many times more likely.

Your ideas have been tried all over the world and failed all over the world. If there was any place where there was conclusive proof that speed limits worked your buddy Scruby would be ramming it down our throats at every possible chance. He isn't.....

The other problem is the stream of propaganda we are deluged with to support the "road tax".
Over the years OUR governement has told us that white people are superior to all other races, smoking is safe, communists are dangerous and a whole pile of other crap that turned out to be "not exactly true".

I will believe that the push for low speed limits and speed cameras is for safety when there are NO speeding fines, just points lost. Like pokies and smoking, there is just too much money in it.......

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Behavioural sciences among one.

As with Montana, NT if Germany introduced an absolute speed limit on its autobahn, its toll by any measure would go up, period.

Going in circles here, I have posted some basic links, read and comprehend the material. The NT post you highlight is 'typical' of the emotive rubbish used by speed-limit proponents and is duly ignored.

If you seek to continue to dumb populaces down in this subject, by the introduction of low speed limits on otherwise safe roads, or other measures, then expect disinterest in the driving task to amplify with expected negative outcome.

Been through all of this hundreds of times before here and at other forums.

You have done a great job explaining someone else's question - thanks for that, but the question was for Fairmont99, I have heard your response.

[Trevor 57]

OK, I give up, what would I know anyway. I have only worked as a post licence driver trainer for near on 20 years, training everything from B-Double drivers, Semi drivers, Company Car drivers, 4x4's and Emergency Service people to drive with lights and sirens.

Plus I have spent 13 years working as an Emergency Service volunteer responding to motor vehicle incidents to assist in the removal of people (both dead and alive).

So I wouldn't know anything, you blokes just have far too much knowledge and experience for me - have a nice argument. But mark my words, there will be a reduction in the NT road toll, come back and open up this thread in 4 years time and let me know the stats then, not 11 months into the change.



Cya :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

OK, I give up, what would I know anyway. I have only worked as a post licence driver trainer for near on 20 years, training everything from B-Double drivers, Semi drivers, Company Car drivers, 4x4's and Emergency Service people to drive with lights and sirens.

Plus I have spent 13 years working as an Emergency Service volunteer responding to motor vehicle incidents to assist in the removal of people (both dead and alive).

So I wouldn't know anything, you blokes just have far too much knowledge and experience for me - have a nice argument. But mark my words, there will be a reduction in the NT road toll, come back and open up this thread in 4 years time and let me know the stats then, not 11 months into the change.



Cya :

Well thanks Trev, it is sure comforting to know that you ultra wise southerners are looking out for us poor dumb notherners so well.

I am sure the doctors who stated that smoking was not dangerous or the computer experts that stated that Y2K would be a world wide disaster had decades of experience too.

Were they right? Or did they just make lots of money out of fear uncertainty and doubt?

But you are right, time will tell and regardless of the result, we will get lied to....

[Keepleft]

ANOTHER development and story:-

http://www.abc.com.au/news/stories/2...20/2095878.htm

[SupahStah]

edited whoops

[kyro_02]

i'm against the limits from the beginning , if and when I get the chance to drive to the NT, i would rather speed management..

driving at a constant speed does get boring, try doing it from vic to qld and vice versa.

[flappist]

So the "experts" say it will take 10 years. Do they really think we are THAT stupid? Of course they do.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.....

[Focussed]

speed has never been the biggest cause of road related deaths in the nt.
the majority have been alcohol related

[Green X]

I drove down south to a friends farm on the weekend to do some shooting, from Perth jumped on the free way down to Mandurah now the road from Mandurah to Bunbury has not shortage of speed traps, 80% of the road is duel carriage way. Traffic was still all in big groups close together, People were afraid to go over 112km/h and when it reverted back to a single lain, just one truck banked cars up.

nobody wanted to risk going over 115km/h overtaking in case there was a speed camera hidden in the bush so at overtaking lanes mabey 4 cars got thou and overtaking on the dashed lines was just not worth it cause you couldn't get past safly without at lest doing 125km/h.

So what have we got, Cars banked up trailing at speed in close proximity to each other, Frustrated drives as they are being held up, a trip taking longer that it should and so on.

yep sounds like a Safe driving environment to me.

The drive was only 280km i had a good sleep the night before and a solid breakfasts and was driving the XR6 Turbo instead of my 4WD, I headed inland after Bunbury and sat at 115 or so thou the winding hilly roads and felt more relaxed and safe, car's were spread out, people could over take safely.

2 weeks before this i drove to Kalgoorlie 600km trip in the 4WD, Got up a 4:30Am for work knocked of at 1pm had bugger all for lunch, left for Kalgoorlie at 4Pm in the arvo and did 125-130km/h for 80% of the trip, didn't have to worry to much about gunning it when overtaking slower cars or trucks and could just drive and concentrate on the road and keep a look out for the odd Cop car coming the other way.

You know what trip wore me out more.

Driving 280km down south after a good night sleep!!!!.

and people try and say speed limits and speed cameras make it safer, Bull ****.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Green X

I drove down south to a friends farm on the weekend to do some shooting, from Perth jumped on the free way down to Mandurah now the road from Mandurah to Bunbury has not shortage of speed traps, 80% of the road is duel carriage way. Traffic was still all in big groups close together, People were afraid to go over 112km/h and when it reverted back to a single lain, just one truck banked cars up.

nobody wanted to risk going over 115km/h overtaking in case there was a speed camera hidden in the bush so at overtaking lanes mabey 4 cars got thou and overtaking on the dashed lines was just not worth it cause you couldn't get past safly without at lest doing 125km/h.

So what have we got, Cars banked up trailing at speed in close proximity to each other, Frustrated drives as they are being held up, a trip taking longer that it should and so on.

yep sounds like a Safe driving environment to me.

The drive was only 280km i had a good sleep the night before and a solid breakfasts and was driving the XR6 Turbo instead of my 4WD, I headed inland after Bunbury and sat at 115 or so thou the winding hilly roads and felt more relaxed and safe, car's were spread out, people could over take safely.

2 weeks before this i drove to Kalgoorlie 600km trip in the 4WD, Got up a 4:30Am for work knocked of at 1pm had bugger all for lunch, left for Kalgoorlie at 4Pm in the arvo and did 125-130km/h for 80% of the trip, didn't have to worry to much about gunning it when overtaking slower cars or trucks and could just drive and concentrate on the road and keep a look out for the odd Cop car coming the other way.

You know what trip wore me out more.

Driving 280km down south after a good night sleep!!!!.

and people try and say speed limits and speed cameras make it safer, Bull ****.

Hey!!!

Stop using sense, logic and actual experience to support your position. You are not fooling anyone you know.

Only academics who think up theories and spend their lives in schools, tafes, universities and think tanks sucking up to other academics and politicians for extra funding know how to make roads safe.
They know all about roads, they have seen one just out the front next to the bus stop.........

[Green X]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hey!!!

Stop using sense, logic and actual experience to support your position. You are not fooling anyone you know.

Only academics who think up theories and spend their lives in schools, tafes, universities and think tanks sucking up to other academics and politicians for extra funding know how to make roads safe.
They know all about roads, they have seen one just out the front next to the bus stop.........

Mate

Don't look now i just found out the academics and politicians are now revueing the Firearms laws in WA, They want to make it tougher to get and keep your Gun license, What ****ing next.

I didn't realise because I own firearms i automatically get a Possible criminal stamp on my file

I am already a Hoon and baby killer cause of the cars i drive, I wish these twates would find something else to do with there time.