Tax the rich?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Conversely, these views and opinions are now out in the public domain, I think the VAST majority of people would disagree and see right through them. The court of public opinion is quite strong. Personally I don't think we need Govco/Laws to protect us from these views and to be frank it is impossible to stop people thinking whatever they want, which is a much better way of saying people have a right to be bigots. Throughout history people have displayed the ability to basically come to the right outcomes. 18C isn't quite the panacea that people think it is... But we digress (a lot)

My head slap emoticon was in jest. I agree 100% in the court of public opinion for 99+ percent of cases. The fringe dwellers will always grab headlines and it will always seem they are a more prominent sector than they actually are.
Cheap, we don't disagree as much as you think, which is a statement which in its existence is proof we disagree a lot! see what i did there.
Justin

[karj]

Another thing that could be done to "save" money is introduce the HECS-HELP scheme for athletes undertaking a program with the AIS.

But with sport being the sacred Australian cow, that won't happen.

[cheap]

[QUOTE=xxx000;5092420]

Originally Posted by cheap

They are a business and they do need the money but rather than put real effort into fixing the issue, which could even potentially be due to a teacher sexually abusing a child, they push the problem elsewhere and call up the next on their 'waiting list' to replace them.
Why? Because reputation is all important for private schools, they don't want the tennis mums chatting about anything that could worry them.
Since these same private schools bludge money from taxpayers maybe they should identify formally that they're a private/public partnership?
Any private school that acknowledges it doesn't need govt money and 'sends it back' could be termed a full private school.

Could the private system cope if every public school student switched over?
That's as likely and absurd as the reverse.

So there's my two main suggestions for easily 'saving' billions: tax religions and don't fund non govt schools. End the two biggest rorts of our time, someone have the guts

Fascinating, taxing private schools and taxing religions will fix Australia's tax problem. I'd encourage you to go to the streets of Lakemba, Bankstown and Auburn to engage with the public seeking feedback and reaction to your solution.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by karj

Another thing that could be done to "save" money is introduce the HECS-HELP scheme for athletes undertaking a program with the AIS.

But with sport being the sacred Australian cow, it's unlikely to happen.

But don't forget the tangible effects of having sports people to run, jump and climb trees. they keep us entertained and our minds off revolt and Coup d'etat.

(I don't have an emoticon for I agree with you and am making another joke in support)

JP

[cheap]

Some idea of why the welfare bill has reached the point it has, and why so many contribute so little, the list may be a little out of date but some of you will get the idea:

Unemployment benefits
Family Tax Benefit Part A
Family Tax Benefit Part B
Paid Parental Leave Baby Bonus Maternity Immunisation Allowance
Health Care Card (Family Tax Benefit)
Child Care Benefit (CCB)
Child Care Rebate (CCR)
Jobs Education and Training Child Care fee assistance (JETCCFA)
Parenting Payment
Double Orphan Pension (DOP)
Age Pension (AP)
Pension bonus scheme
Pension Bonus Bereavement Payment
Wife Pension
Widow B Pension
Bereavement Allowance
Disability Support Pension (DSP)
Sickness Allowance (SA)
Mobility Allowance (MOB)
Carer Payment
Carer Allowance (CA)
Carer Supplement
Austudy
ABSTUDY
Pensioner Education Supplement (PES)
Assistance for Isolated Children (AIC) Scheme
Youth Allowance (YA)
Youth Disability Supplement
Newstart Allowance (NSA)
Partner Allowance (PA)
Widow Allowance (WA)
CDEP Participant Supplement (CPS) and Supplementary Benefits (Add-ons)
Special Benefit (SpB)
Crisis Payment
Concession Cards, Supplements and Allowances
Pensioner Concession Card (PCC)
Automatic issue Health Care Card (HCC)
Claim required Health Care Card (HCC)
Commonwealth Seniors Health Card (CSHC)
Pension Supplement
Seniors Supplement
Telephone Allowance (TAL)
Utilities Allowance (UA)
Pharmaceutical Allowance (PhA)
Remote Area Allowance (RAA)
Extra Allowable Amount for retirement village and granny flat residents
Hardship provisions payment
Work Bonus
Compensation payment
Working Credit
Maintenance income
Rent Assistance

In isolation they look worthwhile, but the cumulative effect is crippling society and eliminating incentive. And don't forget, behind each of these schemes are large fiefdoms of public servants administering and checking aka paper shuffling - it is a self fulfilling prophesy of doom!

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by cheap

I'm in full agreement. My question is what role and responsibility does the individual have and what role and responsibility does that state have in fulfilling. Which has sort of been the underlying issue throughout this thread.

One side (my view) the individual should be responsible and the state as a last resort. Small government and Low tax option

Other side, people seem to be of the opinion of the state providing basically "free" everything. Tax the "rich" and anything else that moves to pay for this. Big government and High tax option

"Small government low tax", isn't that what the Libs said before they got in?
Now in government the ideological rhetoric is much harder to deliver.

I suspect you and your libertarian friends would find it even more difficult to actually deliver that which you keep banging on about.

Please provide examples of the countries you would like Australia to follow. Small government like in; Sierra Leone, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan and Democratic Republic of Congo?

Lower taxes like in the USA where 42 million have no health insurance and you can be bankrupted when you get ill?

Despite you constantly claiming the opposite, Australia is a "Small government low tax" country compared to similar countries.

Please provide examples of these small government low tax utopias Australia could follow when the libertarian finally win government.

But of course that is the libertarian lament. They strive to give individuals responsibility and those individuals never vote for libertarians!

[XBROO]

I find rent assistance funny as I can't get it because I pay a mortgage, but you can get it to help pay rent, even if there's people sharing the rent payments. I said to my missus we should split up until I get back to work as we'd be better off. She knew I was joking, but there's a few couples doing it.

[xxx000]

[QUOTE=cheap;5092467]

Originally Posted by xxx000

Fascinating, taxing private schools and taxing religions will fix Australia's tax problem. I'd encourage you to go to the streets of Lakemba, Bankstown and Auburn to engage with the public seeking feedback and reaction to your solution.

Your repeating yourself from a previous post rather than answering anything or coming up with workable solutions rather than idealogical waffle.

Why are you so fixated with those suburbs that aren't even in your area or state?

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

"Small government low tax", isn't that what the Libs said before they got in?
Now in government the ideological rhetoric is much harder to deliver.

I suspect you and your libertarian friends would find it even more difficult to actually deliver that which you keep banging on about.

Please provide examples of the countries you would like Australia to follow. Small government like in; Sierra Leone, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan and Democratic Republic of Congo?

Lower taxes like in the USA where 42 million have no health insurance and you can be bankrupted when you get ill?

Despite you constantly claiming the opposite, Australia is a "Small government low tax" country compared to similar countries.

Please provide examples of these small government low tax utopias Australia could follow when the libertarian finally win government.

But of course that is the libertarian lament. They strive to give individuals responsibility and those individuals never vote for libertarians!

Well said
too much whinging on here from people who will never be happy

[cheap]

[QUOTE=xxx000;5092618]

Originally Posted by cheap

Your repeating yourself from a previous post rather than answering anything or coming up with workable solutions rather than idealogical waffle.

Why are you so fixated with those suburbs that aren't even in your area or state?

I'm re-answering your repeated claims. I lived in close proximity to those areas and your proposed solution would certainly invite some interesting responses. Are you any good at running (running very very fast)?

[Yellow_Festiva]

[QUOTE=xxx000;5092618]

Originally Posted by cheap

Your repeating yourself from a previous post rather than answering anything or coming up with workable solutions rather than idealogical waffle.

Why are you so fixated with those suburbs that aren't even in your area or state?

Most of my primary schooling till year 10 was in Lakemba, 11-12 was at Bankstown. In fact, I worked at my old primary school in Lakemba (St Therese) for several years along some of the great teachers who I used to sit in front of as a student myself.

I went to my old secondary school (Holy Spirit College) open day just this week, Wednesday in fact, and was gobsmacked at the state of the art facilities and programs in place. The place was awesome when I was there back when it was called St John's and what they have turned it into is truly a sight to behold.

And guess what. I had a long chat with several of my own teachers who are still there.

Please don't knock a suburb due to the rubbish you see on the news. If anyone knew how good these 2 schools are, despite the poor reputation of the suburb they are found in they would be pleasantly surprised.

Anyone looking for a first class secondary school in that area, drop in for a tour!

Oh, and taxing the rich? All for it if it means that it will allow us to maintain the current way of life this awesome country has given us. We have it really good compared to most other countries and if it means paying a little more GST, or a short term levy to reduce our debt than great.

Will it happen??? We shall see. Start by removing all the loopholes that allow wealth and income to be hidden for tax purposes, in any form.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by zilo

Nobody blames the kids in public schools, it's the teachers that suck.
They are not responsible for their performance, if it was a normal workplace they would get scrutinised....but not govt workers, nope they'll go on stress leave if you challenge why half their year group failed.

All teachers? Really?

Oh man. Please. C'mon!

Every job is different. There are bludgers who milk the system and get paid a lot more than they should and there are people who take pride in their work and are not in it for the money, rather the satisfaction of thinking that they are 'making a difference to a young life'...

School is no different.

I take your comment with great offence and I really feel sorry for you if that's how you think 'we' all are. I don't only 'teach' my children. I give them experiences, foster deeper thought, make them strive to be the best they can be, then push for more. I fill their minds with stories of my travels, my own difficult upbringing. They are not my students, they are my very own children.

Oh, my nickname is 'Poppa Smurf' BTW . They know I'm there for them no matter what, and do my best for them at all costs... and it's something I gladly do.

I take their performance as a reflection of my own performance. Full stop.

I know many, many teachers.. trust me. I can say that the sweeping generalisation you have portrayed applies to perhaps 5% of the people I work with.

And I can certainly assure you that we are closely scrutinised... poor performers don't last long. Much the same as in any industry.

[Auslandau]

C'mon please .....

Have let the thread run even though political debates aren't accepted because of the arguments that follow and other reasons but really ...... try to debate the topic as subjectively and politely as possible?

Some of the statements have been been racist and are getting personal as shown above. I live with a teacher as well and let me tell you, I am as disgusted with the generalisation as is Yellow Festiva and am sure a few others. Just shows the intelligence of some .... as personal as that is, it stands.

Just be careful when discussing and keep things nice or threads will go.

[xxx000]

I have worked around Auburn, have a mate from Bankstown and spent some time in the streets of both.
Great diverse places imho with some wonderful people living there. Great trendy Thai restaurant in Bankstown we used to go to, was always packed.

[2011G6E]

Interesting news items out today (suspiciously timely I think...) about what a staggeringly large percentage of people don't actually pay tax in real terms, when you consider the benefits they are getting from the government.

When you consider the amount of tax that the top 5% to at absolute most 10% of wage earners are paying, well...

...you're welcome...no need to thank us...

[bluewindsor]

Spend a week with a teacher and see if you can keep up.

[cheap]

Taxing Peter to pay Paul. One thing is for sure you'll always get Paul's vote.

IMO, that summaries the trajectory this country has been on since 1972. For those of you old enough to remember all the way back to 1972.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

C'mon please .....

Have let the thread run even though political debates aren't accepted because of the arguments that follow and other reasons but really ...... try to debate the topic as subjectively and politely as possible?

Some of the statements have been racist and are getting personal as shown above. I live with a teacher as well and let me tell you, I am as disgusted with the generalisation as is Yellow Festival and am sure a few others. Just shows the intelligence of some.... as personal as that is, it stands.

Just be careful when discussing and keep things nice or threads will go.

Hmmm... You are living with a teacher too? May be you can help me out, my wife has been a teacher in the public system (two countries) her whole working life. As such she has reached the income ceiling for a classroom teacher. In spite of that fact she took leave without pay recently to obtain a post graduate diploma. The extra education she obtained (TESOL) to assist her in her work will not increase her income. She will not get another pay increase no matter how long she works.

I have run a successful small business employing staff for the past seventeen years. As such, I know from a business perspective what she is doing is flawed. The sort of capital expenditure our family has invested in my wife should be providing a healthy return, but apart form CPI she is not earning a cent more than she was several years ago.

How can I get my wife to get with the program?

I had her on a while back as she attempted to leave the house with an inordinate amount of fruit and snacks. Are you going to eat all of that I asked,
no she answered. She had worked out that the disruptive kids in her class the ones that were falling asleep or could not concentrate were not bad they were just hungry. Give them something to eat and she had their full attention. "FFS" I said "don't you have mandatory reporting, shouldn't their parents be held responsible?"

My wife took me aside and explained that their parents were dead! And in many cases these kids, who are under nine years old had witnessed their family being killed. These kids were living with people who claimed to be their Aunt or Uncle, but in reality were probably just well meaning people from the same neighbourhood and who had several children of their own.

I am 186cm and 90kgs but my breath is taken away regularly and I share a tear with my wife as she repeats stories she has heard from "New Australians" under nine, of how their family were killed.

Auslandau am I wrong to express my opinion, that when asked 99.9% of teachers think our Zilo is ill-informed?

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by cheap

Taxing Peter to pay Paul. One thing is for sure you'll always get Paul's vote.

IMO, that summaries the trajectory this country has been on since 1972. For those of you old enough to remember all the way back to 1972.

I'm old enough and beyond. Please articulate what it is you want without bring so obtuse!

[Sam Beckett]

Originally Posted by MattstaF6

The government had an idea I thought was perfect a while ago. People on benefits receive a card like a debit card that people can only use on food and the important things that are needed. Not smokes and alcohol. That may get them working and paying taxes

It is in place, but only mandatory in NT for and in selected suburbs in some cities/areas. 'Income management' is voluntary else ware for people on a benefit, for now.

And Cheap, some of the 'payments' in your list are made up and don't exist, but your copy and past skills are quite satisfactory

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I'm old enough and beyond. Please articulate what it is you want without bring so obtuse!

He wants lower taxes and greater opportunities, more incentive to work harder. It was indirect, but I thought it was pretty clear.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Hmmm... You are living with a teacher too? May be you can help me out, my wife has been a teacher in the public system (two countries) her whole working life. As such she has reached the income ceiling for a classroom teacher. In spite of that fact she took leave without pay recently to obtain a post graduate diploma. The extra education she obtained (TESOL) to assist her in her work will not increase her income. She will not get another pay increase no matter how long she works.

I have run a successful small business employing staff for the past seventeen years. As such, I know from a business perspective what she is doing is flawed. The sort of capital expenditure our family has invested in my wife should be providing a healthy return, but apart form CPI she is not earning a cent more than she was several years ago.

How can I get my wife to get with the program?

I had her on a while back as she attempted to leave the house with an inordinate amount of fruit and snacks. Are you going to eat all of that I asked,
no she answered. She had worked out that the disruptive kids in her class the ones that were falling asleep or could not concentrate were not bad they were just hungry. Give them something to eat and she had their full attention. "FFS" I said "don't you have mandatory reporting, shouldn't their parents be held responsible?"

My wife took me aside and explained that their parents were dead! And in many cases these kids, who are under nine years old had witnessed their family being killed. These kids were living with people who claimed to be their Aunt or Uncle, but in reality were probably just well meaning people from the same neighbourhood and who had several children of their own.

I am 186cm and 90kgs but my breath is taken away regularly and I share a tear with my wife as she repeats stories she has heard from "New Australians" under nine, of how their family were killed.

Auslandau am I wrong to express my opinion, that when asked 99.9% of teachers think our Zilo is ill-informed?

My wife is a teacher who's worked in some tough areas and she's told fairly similar stories.
The dedication and amount of hours she and her workmates put into teaching is staggering.
I'd estimate 1/3 - 1/2 of each school hols is spent at work or doing work from home.

[cheap]

Teacher's in private schools get more $'s, however according to some being associated with the private education system seems to imply you're a free loading tax cheat

As for teachers hours, we're in the same situation, my wife works countless unpaid hours preparing for classes and homework and report cards. Not to mention parent interviews and dealing with habitual feral children.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Teacher's in private schools get more $'s, however according to some being associated with the private education system seems to imply you're a free loading tax cheat

As for teachers hours, we're in the same situation, my wife works countless unpaid hours preparing for classes and homework and report cards. Not to mention parent interviews and dealing with habitual feral children.

It's the system of taxpayers paying for people using a different system to what's provided by govt that's a rort.
but yes of course there's some individual tax cheats that's a concern especially when they may be very high earners.
I had a wealthy neighbour in that boat until recently. All kids through private system then went belly up, now hiding from creditors

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I'm old enough and beyond. Please articulate what it is you want without bring so obtuse!

Back in 1972 (maybe 1973-74) is when the first really big "free" scheme started, back then it was called Medibank and with it came the beginnings of the bloated public service.

Every successive government has either ignored, mismanaged or expanded on the "free" madness to the point where we are now, according to news reports 50% effectively don't pay tax and therefore 50% pay a lot of tax.

I didn't think people needed to be rocket scientists to work out the trajectory of this unsustainable culture, but what has surprised me is that some people seem to believe the problem doesn't exist at all. Don't people every wonder where their tax dollars actually go? I've formed the opinion that the statistics are correct and there are many "Pauls" amongst us.

[cheap]

Duplicate

[cheap]

Originally Posted by xxx000

It's the system of taxpayers paying for people using a different system to what's provided by govt that's a rort.
but yes of course there's some individual tax cheats that's a concern especially when they may be very high earners.
I had a wealthy neighbour in that boat until recently. All kids through private system then went belly up, now hiding from creditors

Like I said, I'd gladly fully pay my way and educate my kids in the private sector. All I ask is to have the subsidy I pay for the public system and its bureaucrats be removed. Based on your views you would be supporting this concept. Deal or no deal?

Or is your point that we should all be using the prescribed government system?

Or are you merging the two?

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by chevypower

He wants lower taxes and greater opportunities, more incentive to work harder. It was indirect, but I thought it was pretty clear.

If you need the government to give you more incentive to work harder then you must be pretty weak in the head.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by mcnews

If you need the government to give you more incentive to work harder then you must be pretty weak in the head.

So paying near 50% in tax for every dollar, that's the incentive that works for you?

[NAK302]

i feel this thread has died. in summary i see it like this, using cheap's Peter pays Paul;
we have a few Peters who argue they are being ripped off by donating hard earned dollars to a lot of Pauls. these Pauls seem to have the belief that because Peter earns more should therefore share those earnings with them so they can enjoy the same lifestyle they perceive the Peters have.
i see a problem with this form of thinking.
if the Peters get tired of donating to Pauls because they think "what's the point" and then become more Pauls, the Peters become less and less. who pays for Pauls perceived lifestyle then?