Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions era

[baboon]

Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions era

Renault, General Motors and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.

The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.

"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.

"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.

Interesting U-turn. Manufacturers are turning to larger capacity engines to meet new emission rules....

[happy1]

Hi,
It's an interesting article about how EU has been measuring emissions in an unrealistic way. So it would be how to meet and perform realistic tests, and no longer do faked tests such as discovered by the VW diesel scandal.
The article describes micro motors such as the Fiat Twin Air (2-cylinder) and some of the 3-cylinder engines. (Similar to Ford's Ecoboost 1-litre).

The article describes:
'For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat models run on twin-cylinders.
These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.
All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.'

There are not many of these smallest engines in Australia anyway, so in my view there could still be some emission benefit from downsizing a little here. For example many cars in Australia having larger V6 engines could go down one size from 3.5 litres to approx 2 litres engine volume, and still function great at normal road speeds with less emissions.
(Keep in mind that maintaining 100km/hour at the freeway takes only about 20kW).
Driving around with a 200+ kW engine isn't totally necessary, (but fun of course).
Cheers,

[vztrt]

Bigger engines...yes please.

[Sabantien]

I think they get more wiggle room with a bigger engine. If they're doing real world testing, then I wonder if having to thrash the crap out of a little engine is actually going to be detrimental to testing.

I regularly switch driving between a small 4 turbo and an NA 6, and there's far less high revving to achieve the same result with the 6 when driving both sedately. (Although the 4 still uses far less fuel)

It might also mean we start seeing more hybrids. They'd get away with a bigger engine to keep people happy with performance, but electric motors also taking some of the load off.

[baboon]

It would be interesting to hear what the criteria of the real world testing is going to be. For example, drive at 100km/h for 10 mins and measure NOx levels, idle for 2 mins and measure NOx, in hot climates/cold climates etc...

[Ben73]

With car companies spending so much money on R&D for these band aid emissions fixes, I wonder how much time and money it takes out of their research of proper fixes like alternatives to fossil fuels.

I know there have to be restrictions on emissions, but making it tighter every year probably isn't helping the end goal.

[simon varley]

WLTP cycles are here
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/wltp.php

[CyberWasp]

Meanwhile in Australia we have known that bigger engines are better all along aka 4.0 I6T.
We are so smart we kept making them up until a week before we were proven right.

[Bossxr8]

Thank VW for all this. I'll bet all the other manufacturers must want to destroy them.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Thank VW for all this. I'll bet all the other manufacturers must want to destroy them.

Now they are putting a V6 TD into the Amarok and it's about time.
All utes who boast about 3000kg+ towing capacity should have something bigger than a 4cylinder diesel at least as an option. Yes keep the 4 cylinders for the people who want a cheap ute with high fuel economy, but give people the option for something decent.

8 Speed Auto, 0-100kmh 7.9 seconds and Combined fuel consumption of 7.6L/100km.
As long as VW aren't twisting the truth, it sounds pretty good to me. Better than the 2L TTD 4 cylinder.

[baboon]

Originally Posted by simon varley

WLTP cycles are here
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/wltp.php

The current emission test cycles are done using a chassis dynamometer to determine emissions and fuel consumption for light vehicles.

Imagine the complexity of writing and implementing the test cycle for "real world conditions".

Im going to imagine they are going to use something like what the professors and students from West Virginia University made for the back of a VW.



Keep a look out for these contraptions attached to vehicles in your neck of the woods!

[OzJavelin]

Balancing act .. to satisfy the European emissions standards and the American CAFE (economy) standards .. and consumer expectations for performance, reliability, value-for-money, etc ..

Internal combustion engine manufacturers have a hard time of it now ..

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Balancing act .. to satisfy the European emissions standards and the American CAFE (economy) standards .. and consumer expectations for performance, reliability, value-for-money, etc ..

Internal combustion engine manufacturers have a hard time of it now ..

Im sure they were saying the same thing when cars went to efi and had cats. The better companies will succeed.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Im sure they were saying the same thing when cars went to efi and had cats. The better companies will succeed.

Cats maybe .. but EFI was the "fix" for most of the other pollution legislated regulation.

As VW's efforts indicated .. you can satisfy a lot of these criteria, but probably not all. You can have emissions and economy, but not performance. Or you could have performance, emissions and economy .. but not low $$$, etc, etc.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Cats maybe .. but EFI was the "fix" for most of the other pollution legislated regulation.

As VW's efforts indicated .. you can satisfy a lot of these criteria, but probably not all. You can have emissions and economy, but not performance. Or you could have performance, emissions and economy .. but not low $$$, etc, etc.

So when cars went to efi they were awesome? It look lots of development to get to great economy, power and emmissions. The question is do car makers spend up big on engines or do they start to move away from them. There is probably one more generation left before major changes come about.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Meanwhile in Australia we have known that bigger engines are better all along aka 4.0 I6T.
We are so smart we kept making them up until a week before we were proven right.

This, this, this. It reads like a Shakespearean tragedy. We get to live it.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Meanwhile in Australia we have known that bigger engines are better all along aka 4.0 I6T.
We are so smart we kept making them up until a week before we were proven right.

But effectively restricting it to one application.

I'd wait for more information but I suspect what they mean by bigger engines is moving from 1.0 3 cylinder to 1.5 4 cylinder. I'd also hazard a guess that electric hybrid power will be more used too.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Cats maybe .. but EFI was the "fix" for most of the other pollution legislated regulation.

As VW's efforts indicated .. you can satisfy a lot of these criteria, but probably not all. You can have emissions and economy, but not performance. Or you could have performance, emissions and economy .. but not low $$$, etc, etc.

A little like the saying.

You can have it Good, Fast or Cheap..............Pick two

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Now they are putting a V6 TD into the Amarok and it's about time.
All utes who boast about 3000kg+ towing capacity should have something bigger than a 4cylinder diesel at least as an option. Yes keep the 4 cylinders for the people who want a cheap ute with high fuel economy, but give people the option for something decent.

8 Speed Auto, 0-100kmh 7.9 seconds and Combined fuel consumption of 7.6L/100km.
As long as VW aren't twisting the truth, it sounds pretty good to me. Better than the 2L TTD 4 cylinder.

Yeah but it will be expensive. Can't see it being below 75 grand.

[Joel.]

So they are going to bigger engines to combat emissions, but by using bigger engines they will also be burning more fuel would they not? Which is not better at all.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Joel.

So they are going to bigger engines to combat emissions, but by using bigger engines they will also be burning more fuel would they not? Which is not better at all.

You can combat it with more efficient transmissions, saving weight in the car (which will save more fuel then anything).

[baboon]

Originally Posted by Joel.

So they are going to bigger engines to combat emissions, but by using bigger engines they will also be burning more fuel would they not? Which is not better at all.

Yeah somethings gotta give doesnt it? Im beginning to think fossil fuels are....

[2011G6E]

There was a trend that started...briefly...quite some years back in the USA with "mega-big-blocks". Street Machine magazine had a short article on it, hoping it would take off here, but it never did. They were alloy V8's of 8 to 10 liters, with a single four barrel carby that appeared to look like a "normal" large V8.

The point was that these motors were torque monsters, and put out up around 600hp+ in a very under-stressed way, but cruising on the highway they were returning some ridiculous fuel economy like 20mpg or so. The reason was efficiency and never really having to work hard.

Sometimes a larger engine can be more efficient than a smaller one.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by baboon

Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions era



Interesting U-turn. Manufacturers are turning to larger capacity engines to meet new emission rules....

Australia did the same with the ADR27A with a lot of engines.
You could not get a 173 in a HX-J or WB because of the ADR27A and some 4 cyl had to go bigger as well.

With the 173 loosing it's ability to comply in the Kingswood was that it was to gutless to comply due to the limit's of the testing parameters and the 253 and 308 had to run EGR in automatic form but not in manual form.

The same would be true with the newer laws coming that will restrict performance and lead to having going up in size a bit more to pass the ADR testing.
It's only like a 1.6L may go up to 1.7L or maybe a 1.8L one may think it will use more fuel being bigger or pollute more because it's bigger but it will not be the case under the strictness of the ADR.
So it has to do more about power to weight efficiency, so as to get to the targeted levels.

[2011G6E]

Just recalled the one that was in Street Machine...it was an SLR Torana fitted with an 8 liter alloy V8.
Inevitably enough it was named...and had the graphics on it to suit..."SLR-8000"...

Here's a bunch of photos of it.
Efficiency through cubic inches....
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s..._4CtEQ_AUIBigB

[FTE]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Just recalled the one that was in Street Machine...it was an SLR Torana fitted with an 8 liter alloy V8.
Inevitably enough it was named...and had the graphics on it to suit..."SLR-8000"...

Here's a bunch of photos of it.
Efficiency through cubic inches....
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s..._4CtEQ_AUIBigB

Howard Bell owned/ owns that. It has an 8 litre Keith Black engine. It had a 6 cylinder turbo at one stage in the 80s.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by Joel.

So they are going to bigger engines to combat emissions, but by using bigger engines they will also be burning more fuel would they not? Which is not better at all.

Bigger engine doesn't necessarily mean higher fuel consumption . There are many factors that determine fuel consumption and engine size it far from being the most important one.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah but it will be expensive. Can't see it being below 75 grand.

Yeah it will be expensive, like every other 4WD in Australia.

I think it would sell well it was similar priced to other top spec model (about 65k). But VW have already said something along the lines of it being better than the rest. To me that suggests it will be more expensive than the rest.