Costly hangover for Kimberley Ports welder

[Trevor 57]

Nothing unfair about dismissal over a 0.02 per cent alcohol reading, Fair Work Commission rules

The Fair Work Commission has upheld a Kimberley Ports decision to fire a welder who failed an at-work breath test

A Broome-based welder who was fired after recording a positive alcohol reading at work has had his unfair dismissal claim thrown out.

On January 27, Lee Ward was subject to a random breath test three hours into a morning shift with the Kimberley Ports Authority.

He recorded an initial reading 0.026 per cent; a second test 20 minutes later confirmed a blood alcohol content of at least 0.020 per cent.

He was asked to leave the premises immediately that day, and was formally dismissed at a meeting on February 3.

Fair Work Commissioner Danny Cloghan ruled that Ward had knowingly broken the Fitness for Work policy of his employer.

He says the welder understood the rules surrounding his role and that beginning work at 6.00am would invariably mean no alcohol the night before.

"At its core, Mr Ward’s dismissal concerns human behaviour," he says.

"It concerns his decision making and the consequences of those decisions."

Cloghan did not take into account the formal warnings that Ward had received for being absent from work without reason.

But he also did not offer weight to Ward’s submission that his breach of the Fit for Work policy was not wilful or deliberate, or that there had been no visible impairment as a result of his alcohol use.

"Mr Ward knew when he was drinking that he had to attend work the following day," Clogham says.

"Mr Ward knew that he could not attend work with a breath alcohol reading beyond zero.

"He was also aware that other employees had been recently dismissed for having breath alcohol readings beyond zero.

"I am satisfied that the employer had a sound, defensible and well-founded reason to dismiss Mr Ward."

[wodahs]

Hmmm with out reading the whole story but only just whats posted here (and because of work I gave up the drink as it was easier that trying to deal it with my job and didn't want to give up my job) , but to me sounds like the Fair Work Commission is targeting the social situation of alcoholism completely with out its unbiased position of being fair in the work place for all

[Mowdit]

Up until recently the site I worked on had a 0.05 limit
But my employer being a contractor had a limit of 0.02
If you were over you were GONE
Part of the employment agreement signed when taking on the job unfortunately.

I would like to see leniency, particularly if the individual is having personal problems, and help offered in the form of counseling, (face a breath test every day for a month and you can keep your job sort of thing)

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by wodahs

Hmmm with out reading the whole story but only just whats posted here (and because of work I gave up the drink as it was easier that trying to deal it with my job and didn't want to give up my job) , but to me sounds like the Fair Work Commission is targeting the social situation of alcoholism completely with out its unbiased position of being fair in the work place for all

NO, FWA are enforcing (supporting) the companies policies, no other agenda, they are not allowed that privilege

[Express]

Years ago while working in the US, the company I was employed with random tested all employees for alcohol, illicit drugs & prescription medication.

With the prescription medication you needed a Doctor’s prescription as proof and your readings could not exceed the dosage rate, the other two were zero tolerance.

Even senior management were shown the door if they failed.

That was over 20 years ago.

Tough but you accepted the positions with full knowledge you’d be dismissed if you failed the tests.

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Mowdit

I would like to see leniency, particularly if the individual is having personal problems, and help offered in the form of counseling, (face a breath test every day for a month and you can keep your job sort of thing)

up until recently this is what I was seeing and if failing the first test they also had the option to remove them self's from work for their shift unpaid but able to return

but if failing 3 in a row it was dismissal

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

NO, FWA are enforcing (supporting) the companies policies, no other agenda, they are not allowed that privilege

but arnt they meant to be fair on/for both sides

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Cloghan did not take into account the formal warnings that Ward had received for being absent from work without reason.

even tho I have done this and also now believe that the rules and policies in some places should be stronger , it seemed may be that he had gone to work in a not so 100% condition believing that he was still in a condition that was in the satisfactory area for the company especially after the warnings which could be perceived as a bullying tactic from the company

and that's where I feel with the current laws (there is a grey allowable area nothing down the line 100%) there may have been looking from one side not both

but again I don't know the rest of the story , bigger picture

[OCTANEBOSS]

Random D&A tests should conducted on everyone that enters any workplace, these include everyone from toilet cleaners to the highest ranking politicians. Anyone that is found to be impaired by illicit drugs or alcohol should be stood down pending investigation and if proven to be guilty of breaching the 0.00 alcohol limit or drug cut off limit should loose job & entitlements.

Personally i think a lot of the people that make rules are impaired from stupidity rather than reality. Seen massive changes in the mining & construction industry, some for the good & some so stupid they actually caused a more unsafer workplace than it was before let alone the money wasted on it. A decant bonus system, good work practices & positive communication & feedback tend to get rid of a lot of these problems but not all.

On a lighter note what I would really love to see is the speaker of the house self test, and say "come on Mal & Bill blow in this. I want to get question time rolling" .... that's a bit of a pipe dream me thinks

[Harrison]

It's about time we got rid of these pesky, self indulgent humanoids entirely and gave the jobs to robots.

Then we can just lend the humans money to buy the products.

If they can't pay it back we'll turn them into hamburgers.

Simple really...

[marty351]

Put your life on hold for $25/hr. If you can legally drive to work, then you can work.

Impairment is the issue. . 02? Questions still remain.

[jpblue1000]

Rules is rules! Sign the contract, breach the contract loosen the job, simple.
JP

[XR6WGN]

I have to abide by the same rules at my work (Zero Alcohol limits) and as I also drive a forklift and hold a rigging ticket, if i go to a farewell lunch, I'll have a beer or two (never more than that) but won't return to work - yes I'm fine to drive but my work rules are just that.
Also, I wave flags at Race Cars on weekends, CAMS have testing policies in place for both Alcohol and Drugs and they also enforce it!!

I just accept it now.

[2011G6E]

We have a zero limit at our job. People learn to live with it and plan accordingly.

I notice one interesting line in that story...

Cloghan did not take into account the formal warnings that Ward had received for being absent from work without reason.

Looks like this wasn't a simple "he made one mistake and is paying for it" type thing...looks like it's more "the final straw that broke the camels back".

[Franco Cozzo]

My work fridge is mostly Bundy yellow and Carlton Draught at the moment, I don't mind if people want to drink during the day with lunch or what ever, just don't do it where customers can see, don't leave the bottles around and we've all gotta be under .05 so if we have to drive someones car we can.

[TheSneakiness]

I agree with the zero tolerance approach to alcohol in the workplace. Being slightly impaired can cause all sorts of issues even within an office environment where you are responsible for millions of dollars, one typo can and does cause a massive headache.

If your employment contract states you must be 0.00% BAC and you are over that or you had a session the night before and are still high, stiff ****. Pack your things and leave.

This also comes from someone who dealt with a step father who drank every night and got into a truck the next day for work. Completely and utterly irresponsible.

[FGX335]

Seems I may be in the minority, but I don't think there is a place for alcohol in the workplace until knock off time. Obvious exceptions might be an office, etc, but I work in construction, and I don't want the operator next to me, or the guy excavating a trench to have anything other than zero in his system. If you can't wait until knock off, or limit your intake the night before, then that points towards unsafe behaviours that I want nothing to do with.

Weekends, go gangbusters, but in the workplace where the safety of you and your colleagues rests in your hands, any reading is too much. I've worked on projects now for 8 years with a zero tolerance, and you find ways to make it work. We are all adults, and if you can't control yourself, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

[Yellow_Festiva]

If he was .02 three hours in what would he have been on arrival?

[OCTANEBOSS]

I have worked many remote sites around WA and have often found the the worst offenders for breaking fit for work policy were the people that worked for the owners. As for us contractors we were often made more accountable in enforcing FFW rules than the principal. Zero tolerance for us, a warning for owner operators if caught. I used to remind all my crew that they must never come onto site blowing numbers, go through the gate at your own peril, better off being sick than losing your job. I even had toolbox meetings off site in the bush with a fire and few cans each just to keep it sane. 4 weeks straight at places in remote areas can do your head in, that's probably why alcohol in particular gets abused, as for it being the main killer of people in high risk work, not sure. I'm more concerned of the bloke that has been smokin ice on his week off and coming in 20+ hrs short of sleep for the week, jumping in a machine and going hard. He can **ss in the bottle and usually get away with it. His state of mind could be all over the shop thou.

FGX335, I think office people etc should have to comply with D&A testing as well, some are in positions that could have catastrophic consequences if they made a poor decision under the influence. Offices can be dangerous places as well, especially with some one of his chops making poor decisions, hit the button on keyboard you could lose someone there life savings

[OCTANEBOSS]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

My work fridge is mostly Bundy yellow and Carlton Draught at the moment, I don't mind if people want to drink during the day with lunch or what ever, just don't do it where customers can see, don't leave the bottles around and we've all gotta be under .05 so if we have to drive someones car we can.

Them dam foreigners keep that fridge full Damo. Good to see.

You can walk into the Siemens factory in Germany and buy a beer from a vending machine in the machine shop cafe. A common practice wis ze gemans.

A BHPB engineer showed me the photos when he went to inspect a refurbed steam turbine we were going to install. He told me that the only bloke that wasnt allowed to drink was the machinist on massive CNC mill that was doing the job, only because if he ****ed up it would cost a fortune.

[FGX335]

Originally Posted by OCTANEBOSS

FGX335, I think office people etc should have to comply with D&A testing as well, some are in positions that could have catastrophic consequences if they made a poor decision under the influence. Offices can be dangerous places as well, especially with some one of his chops making poor decisions, hit the button on keyboard you could lose someone there life savings

Agree 100%. Just thought I was in the minority and decided to not rule across the board and get flamed.

I'm in an office environment at the moment, and it is a zero reading every day. We have to blow into the wand and sign in before we can get to our desk, and we have no desire to break the rules anyway. It's easy once you get used to it.

[OCTANEBOSS]

Pretty much my point too FGX335. The big end of town make a lot of rules for the rest, but would fail dismally if they had to live by them themselves. These days i dont hesitate to try and stop workmate from hurting himself or someone else & I expect the same when I make a mistake or look like trowelling myself up.

The days of PPE as the last line of defense are over.
( Pretty ****ed Everyday )

[FGX335]

Good thing here is that even the Project Director has to use the wand and participate in the **** tests, no rest for the wicked! But that's the way it should be as well.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by OCTANEBOSS

Them dam foreigners keep that fridge full Damo. Good to see.

You can walk into the Siemens factory in Germany and buy a beer from a vending machine in the machine shop cafe. A common practice wis ze gemans.

I have had 2 work colleagues who used to work at CUB in Melbourne and have seen 2 co-workers fall to their death drunk in the 'good old days' at CUB when beer was given free to workers

Originally Posted by OCTANEBOSS

Pretty much my point too FGX335. The big end of town make a lot of rules for the rest, but would fail dismally if they had to live by them themselves. These days i dont hesitate to try and stop workmate from hurting himself or someone else & I expect the same when I make a mistake or look like trowelling myself up.

The days of PPE as the last line of defense are over.
( Pretty ****ed Everyday )

as long as the same rules apply to your kids then all will be good eh?

[OCTANEBOSS]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I have had 2 work colleagues who used to work at CUB in Melbourne and have seen 2 co-workers fall to their death drunk in the 'good old days' at CUB when beer was given free to workers

I too knew a bloke who broke his back falling off a truck at CUB as well & yes he was p*****. He died of cancer many years later but he never worked again after that accident. He told the stories of what they used to do and today that would shocking to most and is unacceptable.

Dont' get me wrong Trevor, its was more disbelief when I saw the photo on his computer and ironic that if it had of been in our workshop BHPB would of ripped us an new Ahole.

I miss having a beer after work in the workshop, I accept that as reality of industry I work in and it would be step backwards. Unfortunately a lot of deaths in mining tend to breaches of procedures, lack of supervision, poor planning & training, perceived pressure to get the job done. An old crane driver I worked with many years died a about 2 years ago crushed between a forklift up North on a busted ar** mine site, should not of happened. Another covering up a ore pass by himself without using the correct gear, they snatched and grabbed his body. Education is the key, I have found that most of the good ideas come from workforce itself, not always from the top tier of company people.

Most companies of today manage there people well, a lot different to 10 years when things were booming.

Have you never felt pretty ****ed everyday Trevor, I used to feel it time to time when I knew I had jump into a tub and gouge off wear plates when it was 45c in shade for the next week. Still managed a few after work but I assure you I was 0.000 before i started work in the morning and live by that rule today. For those that can still enjoy a social drink in there workplace, good on you, any thing in moderation generally does not do that much harm,

[2011G6E]

Absolutely no place for alcohol in the workplace, full stop.
If you think it's fine, imagine what's going to happen after an accident and they find even a tiny amount of alcohol in someone...and keep in mind Workplace Health & Safety often gets to a workplace quicker than the ambulance after an accident...it's something to see.

Back when I worked in the soft drink industry, I remember reading a brewing industry magazine about a beer brewery in South Australia and the hassles they were going through...this was in the early 1990's when WH&S was really starting to come in with a vengeance.
The brewery used to allow workers two beers in the morning and two at lunchtime. Now for some people this would be no big deal, but for others wth a lower tolerance it could make you dangerous around all that moving machinery.
The company abided by new regulations and stopped workers having beer during work hours...and did the unions kick up a stink! There were threats of industrial action, strikes, etc, but they didn't really have a leg to stand on..."We want the workers to have the freedom to be sloshed at work!"...good luck getting that one past the industrial umpire...

In the six months following the ban, workplace accidents fell by around eighty percent on the previous period...no shock there...

If you really absolutely can't do without alcohol until after work has finished for the day...perhaps you ought to reassess yourself...

[OCTANEBOSS]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Absolutely no place for alcohol in the workplace, full stop.......


If you really absolutely can't do without alcohol until after work has finished for the day...perhaps you ought to reassess yourself...

Dead right, like driving 1.8 ton of motor car through a school zone at 3.15 pm with 2 standard drinks under your belt, not notice the kid running under your car even thou your doing 40 kph, the big issue is how much people drink after work & why they drink that much that it affects their effectiveness to turn up fit for work the next day. If you start at work at 06.00 in the morning and blow zeros then your OK. Blow 0.001 at 05.45 then 0.000 at 0.600 your OK but either way your still hung over.

Only ever sacked one person in my life and he was an alcoholic missing 2 fingers, shame he was a nice chap generally but breaching isolation procedures on conveyors....mmm, he was not ****ed at the time either.... Alcohol may of contributed to his incident but not why it was flowing through his blood stream

[LyleXR8]

Depends on the job/site/location etc, im a chippy by trade and a couple beers after work was common and guaranteed on a fri arvo, sometimes to a pub mostly sending someone to get box and have 1-3 on site before heading home, some Saturday mornings there'd be the odd hangover, some jobs you shouldn't arrive at work or drink anything during the day, been mining for years now and sure as **** don't want anyone with any alcohol in there system belting round in 400ton of dump truck around

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by OCTANEBOSS

Have you never felt pretty ****ed everyday Trevor

I am 58 years old, I started driving trucks when I was 19, I liked my job. I drank, but on Friday and Saturday nights. I could never (and still can't) understand why people NEED to drink during the week and certainly to the levels they do

I joined the VicSES when I was about 28 years old, if you ever want to see the impact of alcohol then do that for a while.

To help you understand what I think of drinking and driving I actually dobbed my own son in for doing it, he lost his licence for 11 months, do I feel guilty about that - hell no, I like to think I saved his life and maybe that of someone else

Growing up the child of functioning alcoholics kinda gives you a different perspective on drinking. I still drink, but always in moderation

Most of the social issues we are having these days are mostly because of alcohol abuse. The Government is at a loss about alcohol related violence, the answer is simple, but they don't want to do it - RESTRICT THE SALE OF THE ****!, every supermarket has a bottle shop, every pub has a bottle shop, every ******* street corner has a BWS, Liquorland, Dan Murphy - FFS!!!! You can buy it all night Friday and Saturday nights, then the Government ponders why there is a problem

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I have had 2 work colleagues who used to work at CUB in Melbourne and have seen 2 co-workers fall to their death drunk in the 'good old days' at CUB when beer was given free to workers


as long as the same rules apply to your kids then all will be good eh?

I don't advocate getting wasted, but if you want to have a beer or rum or two with some food in my workshop be my guest.

[OCTANEBOSS]

Fair comment Trevor. We have a bit in common in some respects, I too was a member of SES in Mitta Valley for many years when I was younger, but later gave it away because I could not be trusted with pump action but a set of spreaders & jaws was ok. Have seen the devastation alcohol does and still does to people in my community today, I live mining town. The majority of people that work here comply with there company policies, Ive seen 2 breaches at the site I work at now over the 3 years which I believe is good considering the 60 plus crew operates 24/7. There is no excuse for blowing numbers at work, the breatho sits at the front gate. Choose not to use it and swipe in then use the pre-start breatho & record a reading, your out the gate mate permanently. Rules are rules

I dont see the problem with having a few beers after work at home or the workshop, or during work as long as it is in moderation and controlled. Saying that, I would not ever consider that drinking in my workplace would ever be acceptable 1.4 km down in a dark hot hole you would last 5 mins.

Some of our pollies, business people, company leaders drink on the job on a regular basis and they are working. Personally dont think that is right. Good for the goose, good for the gander, thats pretty much my point.

have good one

Cheers

[LTDHO]

I couldn't come into work without a BAC of some %.

Otherwise I wouldn't even walk in the door!