GM to split from Opel

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

How many suppliers? And they are all going bust anyway? Unfortunately we will soon be sourcing all of our components from China because all the local suppliers are bankrupt........

Which will get interesting Quality wise or even reliability to run JIT.


An example.
The B-series door actuators are made in china...and another fun thing to think about is the engineers trying to fix this problem couldn't get anyone over that spoke English.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

How many suppliers? And they are all going bust anyway? Unfortunately we will soon be sourcing all of our components from China because all the local suppliers are bankrupt........

Falcon and Commodore source quite a few bits locally (still). Focus however will source most bits from overseas....

The small Holden (if launched in 2010 like they say), will have 50% + of it's bits imported. Most interior bits and all of the powertrain will be be brought in from OS.

KRudd's 150 + Mill is a great investment isn't it ?

I'm thinking as the shift moves further away from the local big cars, a greater number of local suppliers that will go under. It's not good.

Here's a bit of trivia....:

The Chinese Focus / Mazda 3 C car plant was running flat out until recently (approx 1000 cars per day). That has dropped significantly because of sales due to the the WFC.

Ford and Mazda 3's Australian sales are about 50,000 vehicles a year max. How hard would it be to crank that Chinese plant up by that number of cars ?

Food for thought.... are you listening Krudd ? With the Free trade agreedment with China ?

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

The Chinese Focus / Mazda 3 C car plant was running flat out until recently (approx 1000 cars per day). That has dropped significantly because of sales due to the the WFC.

Ford and Mazda 3's Australian sales are about 50,000 vehicles a year max. How hard would it be to crank that Chinese plant up by that number of cars ?

Food for thought.... are you listening Krudd ? With the Free trade agreedment with China ?

Paints a frightening picture for Australia's manufacturing future. What China needs is an industrial revolution, where all the workers band together and fight for better rights and pay. But when you are a communist nation, the government (army?) make sure that will never happen........

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Paints a frightening picture for Australia's manufacturing future. What China needs is an industrial revolution, where all the workers band together and fight for better rights and pay. But when you are a communist nation, the government (army?) make sure that will never happen........

Politically it'd be a bad decision to make China the source for a lot of Asia / Pacific's volume of cars.

China is still a politically unstable environment. What if there was a face off between China and the West ? (re: US), it'd mean the source of all cars in the region was at risk.

I don't know what'll happen in the next 10 years, but I hope Australia has some Automotive industry left. Including Ford and Holden.

I think there are some pretty serious business plans being "locked in" at the moment, and these plans will mean a lot to Australian workers.

[XR6_190]

Just one Q on the specific topic on hand that I would like to throw into the arena, With Opel going by the GM waistside, what happens to Holden's Astra (which is just a rebadged opel), and what happens to Vauxhall?

[Gobes32]

I think that deal get's scrapped? And if GM do offload Holden then I presume the Daewoo deal is scrapped as well?

But if Holden and Opel can come to an agreement when they are separate companies, then there is no reason why the deal can't continue. On the same token, Will Holden still supply motors to Saab?

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I think that deal get's scrapped? And if GM do offload Holden then I presume the Daewoo deal is scrapped as well?

But if Holden and Opel can come to an agreement when they are separate companies, then there is no reason why the deal can't continue. On the same token, Will Holden still supply motors to Saab?

If GM sell Holden...

Holden actually own > 65% of Daewoo. So, if GM want to keep Daewoo, they'd better make Holden an offer.

All ifs, buts and maybes... which means nothing at the end of the day.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I think that deal get's scrapped? And if GM do offload Holden then I presume the Daewoo deal is scrapped as well?

But if Holden and Opel can come to an agreement when they are separate companies, then there is no reason why the deal can't continue. On the same token, Will Holden still supply motors to Saab?

Normally when companies break up they do some form of deal.
Daimler Benz made sure they get money from higher unit sales before they offloaded them.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

If GM sell Holden...

Holden actually own > 65% of Daewoo. So, if GM want to keep Daewoo, they'd better make Holden an offer.

All ifs, buts and maybes... which means nothing at the end of the day.

Its GM-Daewoo isnt it? that would mean GM bought it the same way GM bought Holden??


edit yep deawoo was bought out by GM NOT holden
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/...ess/daewoo.php

[imugli]

GM transferred their stake to Holden, thereby divesting any liability it may become...

Let Me Google That For You

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by imugli

GM transferred their stake to Holden, thereby divesting any liability it may become...

Let Me Google That For You

there you go They bought it and transferred it to holden in case it sank. Ironically Its GM and not Daewoo thats sinking. Or is daewoo in poo poo too??

[barbarian]

Opel to sever links with General Motors after 80 years

Saturday 28 February 2009


Troubled German carmaker Opel is in effect to become independent from its parent company General Motors after 80 years, under restructuring plans announced by its supervisory board.

The move will also see Vauxhall, which represents General Motors in the UK, rolled into the newly restructured company and spun off from its US parent.

General Motors employs about 5,000 people in the UK, including 2,000 at its Vauxhall plant at Ellesmere Port in Cheshire and about 1,400 at its Vivaro van plant at Luton.

Hans Dechant, the head of Adam Opel GmbH said that the carmaker would "largely detach" itself from GM and reorganise as a joint-stock company to lure investors and state backing to save it from insolvency.

Carl-Peter Forster, head of the GM Europe division, said Opel needed an injection of €3.3bn (£2.9bn) from governments across Europe to make the plan work. Speaking at a press conference at Opel's headquarters in Rüsselsheim, in Frankfurt, Forster said GM would give up a stake of 25 to 30%.

Forster said that in future Opel would be "significantly more independent" as a self-standing European company, but would retain close links with GM. Opel said it wanted to retain access to new technologies and to benefit from a relationship with a large company. Certain legal and business links would remain.

The future of all 10 General Motors plants in Europe - including the two in the UK - are all under review. At least two plants are likely to be closed soon because of overcapacity and to cut losses. But the Ellesmere plant is expected to escape the axe as it is one of GM's most efficient plants in Europe and has been chosen to build the new Astra model in September. The future of the Luton plant is less certain.

The announcement to restructure General Motors European operations came after protests by thousands of workers in several cities this week who called for Opel to split from GM, in an effort to save it from insolvency and protect their jobs. Opel employs 26,000 in Germany alone.

Detroit-based GM has already received $13.4bn (£9.4bn) in state aid and is looking for a further $16.6bn. It has announced it lost $30.9bn in 2008, including $2.8bn at its European units.

Opel said it was hoping the German state would guarantee €3.3bn in loans necessary for the restructuring plan, making it the first carmaker in Europe to ask for government support. But the government has repeatedly struck a note of caution, calling on Opel to first come up with a workable restructuring package.

Forster said the restructuring plans would be presented to the government on Monday as well as four states in which Opel has plants. Experts warned of complications likely to arise around the issue of patents and rights. Forster said "considerable savings" of €1bn needed to be made, and cuts in wages and voluntary redundancies were to be expected.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-vauxhall-opel

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

there you go They bought it and transferred it to holden in case it sank. Ironically Its GM and not Daewoo thats sinking. Or is daewoo in poo poo too??

Daewoo is in the poo.
GM Daewoo asks KDB to inject 1 tln won as liquidity crisis looms
SEOUL, Feb 21, 2009 -Appeals for long-term financing by the South Korean unit of beleaguered U.S. automaker General Motors Corp. took a more urgent tone after it asked for hundreds of millions of dollars from a state-run bank, according to officials at the bank and the carmaker on Friday.
The plea for aid from the Korea Development Bank (KDB) by GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co., which is reportedly in dire financial straits, came a week after the South Korean government turned down a similar request made by the carmaker.

GM Daewoo, the third-largest carmaker in South Korea, has used nearly all of its US$2 billion credit line offered by the state-run bank as part of a deal in 2002, when GM purchased a majority stake in bankrupt Daewoo Motor, KDB officials said.

Miachel Grimaldi, the chief executive of GM Daewoo, visited KDB and sought one trillion won (US$669 million) in financial assistance, they said.

In return, KDB asked GM Daewoo to submit its financial records and clarify GM's stance on its South Korean unit by the end of March.

"We will decide on whether to support GM Daewoo after carefully reviewing its self-rescue plan and the possibility of its survival with its U.S. parent," said a high-ranking official at KDB.

Officials at GM Daewoo confirmed the visit by Grimaldi but declined to elaborate.

This week, GM said it plans to cut 47,000 jobs around the world and close five more factories as part of its self-rescue plan in return for as much as $30 billion in financial aid from the U.S. government.

Globally, GM's units have lined up for a total of $6 billion from five foreign governments, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal on Thursday.

It remains unclear whether KDB will offer financial aid to GM Daewoo.

Officials at the Ministry of Knowledge Economy, which oversees the automotive industry, said the government could not provide support to GM Daewoo before GM clarifies its stance on the South Korean unit.

GM Daewoo was created in 2002 when GM and its partners took a majority stake in the automobile unit of the bankrupt Daewoo Group, which collapsed in 1998.

The company was once envied as one of the few profitable overseas subsidiaries under the U.S. auto giant, but mounting woes at GM have finally caught up to GM Daewoo.

Auto sales at GM Daewoo fell eight percent in 2008 to 881,959 units. Last month, sales plunged 50.5 percent to 45,842 vehicles.

Domestic sales fell 20.4 percent to 6,914 units and exports plummeted 53.6 percent to 38,928 units, the company said earlier.

Hit by the steep drop in sales, GM Daewoo has halted production at its plants for the third time since last December.
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/...0News/2192453/

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by imugli

GM transferred their stake to Holden, thereby divesting any liability it may become...

Let Me Google That For You

Thereby divesting any liability it may become...onto Holden
So if Daewoo go under Holden as owner are liable?

[crYnOid]

Let me highlight the key parts of the article posted by barbarian.

Originally Posted by barbarian

Hans Dechant, the head of Adam Opel GmbH said that the carmaker would "largely detach" itself from GM and reorganise as a joint-stock company to lure investors and state backing to save it from insolvency.

Carl-Peter Forster, head of the GM Europe division, said Opel needed an injection of €3.3bn (£2.9bn) from governments across Europe to make the plan work. Speaking at a press conference at Opel's headquarters in Rüsselsheim, in Frankfurt, Forster said GM would give up a stake of 25 to 30%.

Forster said that in future Opel would be "significantly more independent" as a self-standing European company, but would retain close links with GM. Opel said it wanted to retain access to new technologies and to benefit from a relationship with a large company. Certain legal and business links would remain.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-vauxhall-opel

Simply put Opel would be owned 70-75% by GM and 25-30% by others. Opel would be independent of GM, but would still be able to use and buy GM tech/parts. I doubt this will get the go ahead from the german gov. as I believe they want GM to control no more than 49%.

This is being seen as a template for each GM division outside of the US as with these divisions not being controlled by GM, if GM NA goes into bankruptcy, GM wont control them so they will be able to continue with minimal interruption.

One fact I found interesting was that GM took all Opel patents and now holds them in a GM holding company. Opel got an IOU for $1.8 billion. Last year Opel was charged $600 million+ for using those patents. So far Opel hasn't seen a cent of the 1.8 billion......

Originally Posted by coupex

Daewoo is in the poo.

Everyone is in the poo.

[greenfoam]

I don't know about the rest of you but the worst recession I've lived through was Paul Keatings where the local under 25 unemployment reached over 50% (true the goverment weren't as good as fudging the figures as they are now) it took many many years to recover and that was only Australia. This is Word wide and I honestly can't see how so many companies are still hanging onto so many people when no ones buying anything. Even houses, I've never seen so many for sale in my life nothing even close, it really does seem like the calm before the storm right about now anyone else feeling like that?

[tyler06]

I have never seen so many people losing their jobs. That scares me more. In saying that i really dont want holden to go under, because i will have nothing to despise and beat!

[imugli]

Originally Posted by coupex

Thereby divesting any liability it may become...onto Holden
So if Daewoo go under Holden as owner are liable?

It really depends on the corporate structure they have set it up in...

As with Opel though, we know quite a few of Holden's cars are sourced from Daewoo - Captiva, Barina, Viva...

It looks more and more like Holden will end up having to enter into some sort of licensing or distribution agreement with all these brands so they can sell their cars...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

Yeah the VN motor was imported and installed just how it was in the FWD buicks, that's why the intake is back to front. The early preproduction VN's were running around with both the RB 30 and the V6 in them. They were hoping to get something with more grunt in the VN before it was released and the V6 only JUST made it in time so they were a bit of a rush job. Proven by the fact that you can drop an RB30 in there and the headers bolt up to the cat back exactly perfectly (The V6's Y pipe was a fudge at the last minute). I think the later motors series 2 VN onwards -- were at least partially assembled here.

That's all nothing to do with anything but I'm sure it's no problem sourcing a good motor for a good price in the world today

I think you need to check your source, the Buick V6 was redesigned and modified to suit rear wheel drive as all the buick applications were FWD. The aussie version had better balance and smoothness as a result of the redesigned balance shaft that was used as well as a host of other changes. My old boss was one of the lead engineers that designed the aussie v6 and then later the kit for the Formula Holden racing class. When we used to complain about the V6, he used to always answer with "you think thats bad, you should see the yank version"

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by coupex

GM is decentralizing its global operations prior to bankruptcy. I see Holden being spun out similarly before March 31st.

Maybe maybe not. It seems that that GM still holds Holden dear to its operations now and into the future. I wonder with all this reorganising on the world stage by GM which includes Opel, SAAB and may even mean a transfer of Buick to the Chinese, that Holden may remain as the sole OS GM survivor at the end of all of this. It makes sense because the new engine plant (which is one of only two of its type) is here, and Holden is directly attached to Pontiac (meaning less immediate extra investment to get a return) because of the VE. Also the drive trains are global unlike the Falcon I6.

Holden seem to be uniquely joined to the hip of GM where as the rest of their siblings do not. I know there is no guarantee but, if GM makes it then I think Holden’s future may also be assured as well.

I have high lighted the parts that I mean

Holden's future bright despite weak markets :chairman

2/03/2009 - Car maker Holden still has a bright and prosperous future, despite facing some of the toughest trading conditions ever, chairman and managing director Mark Reuss says.


Reuss said Holden had a rich heritage because it had always strived to remain relevant to Australian motorists.

"It is one thing to have been relevant, but to remain relevant is the challenge," he said at the opening of the Melbourne Motor Show on Friday.

"Motorists still want comfort and reliability but also vehicles that are friendlier to the environment and, in these difficult economic times, offer value for money.

"In the past year this industry has witnessed some of the toughest and challenging market conditions ever.

"But I am confident today's actions will position us for a bright and prosperous future."

The chairman's comments came after Holden's parent company General Motors last week presented the US government with a survival plan which included the loss of 46,000 jobs worldwide.

The GM plan expected Holden to remain viable and to provide a substantial contribution to GM's recovery following the introduction of a new small car line in Adelaide in 2010.

But Holden officials said, in the meantime, the company was looking at every aspect of its operations and faced some tough decisions in the near future.

It has already scheduled a series of production cuts this year with workers on reduced earnings.

There has been no word yet on job cuts, but the company is likely to shed some assembly line and white collar positions.

South Australian Treasurer Kevin Foley said on Friday Holden deserved praise for keeping its Australian workforce largely intact in the face of the global economic downturn.

Foley said the car producer had shown a level of corporate responsibility not demonstrated at some other companies.
"Holden are holding their workforce together and intact to the best extent that they can," the treasurer told reporters.

"They are actually working with the unions involved to make sure the workers still have a job when some normality returns to this crazy world we're now living in."

Foley said Holden was highly regarded within GM's global operations.

"The Australian operations are profitable, innovative...it is one of the best offshore operations General Motors has anywhere in the world," he said.

Source: AAP NewsWire

[greenfoam]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I think you need to check your source, the Buick V6 was redesigned and modified to suit rear wheel drive as all the buick applications were FWD. The aussie version had better balance and smoothness as a result of the redesigned balance shaft that was used as well as a host of other changes. My old boss was one of the lead engineers that designed the aussie v6 and then later the kit for the Formula Holden racing class. When we used to complain about the V6, he used to always answer with "you think thats bad, you should see the yank version"

Only going off the American side of the story from some of the workers in the factory, they used to get on the Buick V6 forums a few years ago

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Maybe maybe not. It seems that that GM still holds Holden dear to its operations now and into the future. I wonder with all this reorganising on the world stage by GM which includes Opel, SAAB and may even mean a transfer of Buick to the Chinese, that Holden may remain as the sole OS GM survivor at the end of all of this. It makes sense because the new engine plant (which is one of only two of its type) is here, and Holden is directly attached to Pontiac (meaning less immediate extra investment to get a return) because of the VE. Also the drive trains are global unlike the Falcon I6.

Holden seem to be uniquely joined to the hip of GM where as the rest of their siblings do not. I know there is no guarantee but, if GM makes it then I think Holden’s future may also be assured as well.

I have high lighted the parts that I mean

Have to laugh at the quote where the Holden boss says they are profitable. Thats nothing but a blatant lie. They haven't made money for a few years.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Have to laugh at the quote where the Holden boss says they are profitable. Thats nothing but a blatant lie. They haven't made money for a few years.

Its funny because I was talking to a die hard Holden nut last week about the GM crisis. He told me that Holden is so profitable that they wont have anything to worry about. Then started to go on about how Australian they were..... I told him how they hadnt profited in years and he thought I didnt know what I was on about. Poor misguided fools.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Torxteer

Poor misguided fools.

Most ardent Holden fans are.......... And they are blind to the facts.

Biggest difference between Ford and Holden fans, Ford fans think Ford are useless, their products are un-reliable and they are never going to buy a new one again.....but they do.

Holden fans on the other hand think everything Holden touches turns to gold and they are the most awesomest, bestest Aussie company ever.........

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Most ardent Holden fans are.......... And they are blind to the facts.

Biggest difference between Ford and Holden fans, Ford fans think Ford are useless, their products are un-reliable and they are never going to buy a new one again.....but they do.

Holden fans on the other hand think everything Holden touches turns to gold and they are the most awesomest, bestest Aussie company ever.........

So true.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Most ardent Holden fans are.......... And they are blind to the facts.

Biggest difference between Ford and Holden fans, Ford fans think Ford are useless, their products are un-reliable and they are never going to buy a new one again.....but they do.

Holden fans on the other hand think everything Holden touches turns to gold and they are the most awesomest, bestest Aussie company ever.........

I'm the only Ford supporter in my Electrical class and this one kid won't shut the hell up about how good Holden is and how they're more Australian than Ford, then when he hears the facts, he goes into denial.

[Sprint XR8]

Opel 'should consider insolvency'

German carmaker Opel should consider entering insolvency, the country's interior minister has said.
Modern insolvency law was "not set up for the destruction but for the preservation of economic assets", said Wolfgang Schaeuble.
The comments came as executives from Opel and its parent General Motors (GM) met government officials and promised more details on a restructuring plan.
Opel has calling for a cash injection from Germany to help its survival.
But Mr Schaeuble said that insolvency was a better option for Opel than relying on a state handout - and that such a move would not mean that it would have to go bust.
"The public perception is that insolvency is associated with going bust or bankruptcy," he said.
"But that is wrong. We must grasp that to survive such a crisis, modern insolvency rules are a better solution than the state taking a stake."

'No business plan'

Like most global carmakers, Opel is suffering from a slump in sales.
The company announced last week that it needed the money to avert plant closures and job losses among its 26,000 employees in Germany.
Media reports suggest that the German government was angry that the bail-out proposal - which asked for 3.3bn euros (£2.93bn; $4.16bn) - was simply a glossy 217-page brochure which read like an advertisement, rather than presenting any viable business plan.
Finance minister Peer Steinbrueck said the plan was "no basis" for the government to make a decision on whether to grant state aid.
However, after an hour of talks on Friday, which German economic minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg said were "open, good and constructive", the government said it was ready to review proposals.
GM Europe's president, Carl-Peter Forster, who is also head of the Opel supervisory board, said GM and Opel would endeavour to supply all the information which the German government had requested.

Cutbacks

German media have also reported MPs saying, off the record, that they were "shocked" to learn that Opel did not have any assets - with all factories being owned by GM in the US.
Separately, there is confusion about whether Opel owns the intellectual property (IP) information about its vehicles.
Deputy economic minister Dagmar Woehrl told parliament on Wednesday that GM had pledged the IP of Opel as security against capital injections it had received from the US government.
Trade union leader Armin Schild, who is on the board of Opel, said that both firms could use the IP without having to pay royalties.
But it has raised concerns that it could be sold on by GM.
GM Europe proposed last week that Opel should be partly separated from its parent company's US operations.
Such a move would require financing that GM is unable to provide.
The US carmaker, which was toppled by Toyota as the world's top-selling car firm earlier this year, is trying to wind down some of its European operations as part of a massive cost-cutting exercise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7927924.stm