Holden's Daewoo gamble beginning to go sour?

[SB076]

I think the Epica is a great car - its the only car you could let loose in a china store knowing it lacks the power to do any actual damage

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by Mongoose10

Not to mention all my friends at school who HONESTLY BELIEVE the RODEO is AUSTRALIAN! and that just goes to show how ignorant some people are, they look at the badge and its automatically a holden

LOL. On my dad's 1989 Rodeo, the rocker cover still says Isuzu. It even came with an Isuzu keyring when dad bought it brand new! The only Holden parts on it are the badge in the grille and on the steering wheel

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by philxy351

Anyone with brains knows barra is better :P. The holden supporters with brains will tell you that fords barra is better but most holden supporters have no clue at all and just follow the majority. Everyone knows that holden has been whopping ford in the V8 department for years but u dont hear many ford fans trying to tell you different. In my experience just with my friends anyone with any mechanical smarts about them follow ford and the kids with no idea support holden with no claims to back up their argument except for the usual we sell more cars so we must be better and we win bathurst all the time. Now we can see how this has and will continue to snowball if generations of kids grow up on this beleife. The V8 gettin smashed by holdens in magazines reviews and on the steet and the lack of bathurst wins is whats affecting our image at the moment especially in the eyes of young people and people that believe a v8 supercar is as falcon or commodore as the one sitting in your driveway. I think bathurst is a main one as if you ask, nearly everyone will tell you who won bathurst but only the followers will be able to tell you who won at eastern creek etc.. bathurst wins would sell alot of cars to the majority i think (the majority being people with no idea about cars) and maybe convert some of the kids these days to ford.

Your absolutely spot on mate!

My sister has a gay friend who bought a VT series 1 commodore and the bloke promptly told me that his VT could flog my Fairmont because it handled better cos it's heavier. I didn't know where to start the fact that my car is heavier or that a heavier car doesnt neccesarily handles better.

I've also been bagged out by a Holden enthusiast becaust I don't have a V6 cos V stands for "very powerful".

I also hate those who hate Fords with no explanation just "because their crap".

The XR6 Turbo is the Falcons saviour though as you are wrong about V8's and bathurst being influential. The big influence now is the ricer scene with the word "turbo" being more important than "V8".

I have met countless young ricers who have respect for the XR6 Turbo and the results of this will be seen in the coming years. Ford is suffering at the moment because of the generation that grew up under the days when Ford didn't have a V8 but now a generation is growing up with the "fully sick" XR6 Turbo!!!

Can you imagine what would happen if they released a twin turbo..........

[tapeworm]

Originally Posted by philxy351

Anyone with brains knows barra is better :P. The holden supporters with brains will tell you that fords barra is better but most holden supporters have no clue at all and just follow the majority. Everyone knows that holden has been whopping ford in the V8 department for years but u dont hear many ford fans trying to tell you different. In my experience just with my friends anyone with any mechanical smarts about them follow ford and the kids with no idea support holden with no claims to back up their argument except for the usual we sell more cars so we must be better and we win bathurst all the time. Now we can see how this has and will continue to snowball if generations of kids grow up on this beleife. The V8 gettin smashed by holdens in magazines reviews and on the steet and the lack of bathurst wins is whats affecting our image at the moment especially in the eyes of young people and people that believe a v8 supercar is as falcon or commodore as the one sitting in your driveway. I think bathurst is a main one as if you ask, nearly everyone will tell you who won bathurst but only the followers will be able to tell you who won at eastern creek etc.. bathurst wins would sell alot of cars to the majority i think (the majority being people with no idea about cars) and maybe convert some of the kids these days to ford.

**** mate you summed it up perfectly. I've noticed a definate trend with the people I know; the mechanics and people with a decent mechanical understanding are into fords. The Holden dudes are also mates but are a different type they like their cars but have no idea whats going on and will do the routine Fords are **** just cause their **** with no explanation. It is almost guaranteed you ask anyone with no idea they say they prefer Holden and Fords are ****. They will also say the Holdens all Aussie unlike the Ford. I credit this to Holdens clever marketing. Ford need to pick up their act something cronic.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I also hate those who hate Fords with no explanation just "because their crap".

Same thing can be said about alot of people who hate Holdens, and say they're crap, because they're Holdens, and believe me I've had to put up with the dribble before.

No point in fighting back though. Anyone with an IQ much higher than the average bogan has actual reasons why a certain car maybe *****, crap however you want to put it. People who say so, and so is crap because it's a so, and so generally don't deserve a response, which is why they should be cleansed from the gene pool.

Also I agree that the Barra is better than the Alloytec, actually I think Ford has always nailed Holden in the 6 department.

As my sig says the best 6 Holden ever had, wasn't theirs anyway.

All this coming from a VL owner.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Same thing can be said about alot of people who hate Holdens, and say they're crap, because they're Holdens, and believe me I've had to put up with the dribble before.

No point in fighting back though. Anyone with an IQ much higher than the average bogan has actual reasons why a certain car maybe *****, crap however you want to put it. People who say so, and so is crap because it's a so, and so generally don't deserve a response, which is why they should be cleansed from the gene pool.

Also I agree that the Barra is better than the Alloytec, actually I think Ford has always nailed Holden in the 6 department.

As my sig says the best 6 Holden ever had, wasn't theirs anyway.

All this coming from a VL owner.

It's good to see some sense from the other side I am also perfectly sensible enough to admit that Holden has the better eight.

VL's are a funny thing from a time when Holden was trying to make their cars more Jap.

Not many people know this but Honda designed the Falcons 250 crossflow head.

Anyway back to the main subject my missus summed it up perfectly after watching the Holden Epica ad "people who believe this crap deserve to have a crap car"

[Falcon Freak]

May 07 Daewoo sales (May 06)

Barina 928 (806) +15.1%
Viva 605 (1,083) - 44.1%
Captiva 971 (0) N/A
Epica 480 (0) N/A

2007 YTD Daewoo sales (2006 YTD)

Barina 5,246 (6,010) -12.7%
Viva 3,521 (4,776) - 26.3%
Captiva 3,966 (0) N/A
Epica 659 (0) N/A

Although Barina had a good month, both it and the Viva are down on 2006. Where will the Captiva and Epica be in 12 months time when the initial sales surge passes?

23% of Holden's sold in May 2007 were made by Daewoo (2,984 out of 12,902).

FF

[robertjp]

I thought the first alloy heads were designed by Yamaha, either way not much worng with that.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

23% of Holden's sold in May 2007 were made by Daewoo (2,984 out of 12,902).

Thats a scary stat! Good on them though, hope it bites them in the a$$ one day (that day just needs to be soon before the Koreans work out how to build cars..LOL).

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by robertjp

I thought the first alloy heads were designed by Yamaha, either way not much worng with that.

Nope, Honda.

Have this book on "75 years of Ford in Australia written bout 2000" it's a really interesting read.

Apparently Ford Oz went to Mazda for help first but Mazda was deemed too "conservative" Honda was a really big help and worked well with Ford Oz.

Really good read.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Thats a scary stat! Good on them though, hope it bites them in the a$$ one day (that day just needs to be soon before the Koreans work out how to build cars..LOL).

Holden is now the second largest seller of Korean made cars:

Hyundai 4,219
Holden 2,984
Kia 1,563
SSangyong 200

FF

[perrys]

Its a shame that Holden cant be the No.1 Korean brand in Oz, I mean they have so much more dealerships than Hyundai does!

[Falcon Freak]

June 07 Daewoo sales (June 06)

Captiva 1,066 (0) N/A
Barina 982 (1,270) -22.7%
Viva 685 (1,154) - 40.6%
Epica 437 (0) N/A

2007 YTD Daewoo sales (2006 YTD)

Barina 6,228 (7,280) -14.5%
Captiva 5,032 (0) N/A
Viva 4,206 (5,930) - 29.1%
Epica 1,096 (0) N/A

June new car sales are up 9% on last year. 2007 YTD is up 8.5% on last year. So why are the Barina and Viva going so poorly?

22% of Holden's sold in June 2007 were made by Daewoo (3,170 out of 14,256).

Holden is now the second largest seller of Korean made cars:

Hyundai 5,023
Holden 3,170
Kia 2,330
SSangyong 180

FF

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by sleekism

The only thing that helps me sleep at night is that all my friends who like Holden work at Coles, Dominos or are on the dole.

All my friends who like Fords are either at university or doing a diesel mechanic or fitter/turner apprenticeships.

I don't think that is a fair statement. My brother is doing well and he refused to get a BA, preferring a VY. He never worked at Coles or Dominoes.

I don't think anybody's choice of car is any recipe for success in life.

But I am sure that what you meant to say is that people who know something about the Australian motoring industry prefer Ford over Holden because Holden's V6 is not as good as Ford's Barra, and because of their natural aptitude for gaining and retaining knowledge, are able to engage in study or employment in a more advanced field than pack followers who I agree do follow Holden.

People still poo their undies when I tell them that the only Australian Holden is the VE Commodore. Mass confusion.

[ED Classic]

Heard somebody ring Paul Gover today and ask what he thought of the 07 Barina and he said "dont buy one" lol Not bad for a HRT man

Turning sour fast IMHO

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Don't even try to explain to a Holden enthusiast that the Barra is a better design to the Alloytec unless you wan't to cop a lot of abuse.

The only thing that helps me sleep at night is that all my friends who like Holden work at Coles, Dominos or are on the dole.

All my friends who like Fords are either at university or doing a diesel mechanic or fitter/turner apprenticeships.

A few years down the track who is going to be looking in the new car section and who is goin to be struggling to buy a ex-fleet 3rd hand car with 200,000 on the clock?

I wouldn't be too sure about that, yes the falcon has more tprque and uses less fuel, but its a large detuned engine, thats what you get, every kw increase will show more fuel consumption, where as the commodore is a modern smaller engine.

The alloytec is made in 2.8, 3.2 & 3.6, but is designed for those and 3.8 and 4.0. If they put the alloytec 4.0 into production as a 200kw engine, im sure the torque figure would be close to the falcons, and not to mention better fuel economy, also because the big VE wouldn't be carted around by a ****y 330nm which would make it easier on the engine. 90% o the alloytec's torque is available across the majority of the rev range, to me thats well designed, they just need a bit more torque there t make i worth while.

And to he who said the commodore will be rooted next year when the orion comes out with increase power and that fuel consumption will ruin the commodore, don't forget direct injection, over 200kw and DI also makes fuel economy better. Time will tell but I don't think it will be as bad as you say it will. Not to mention the 550nm 3.0 turbo diesel which I think if advertised properly (and we all know holden is good at that) might just come close to alloytecs sales if readily available throughout the range.

Stoney!

[ltd]

Stoney, whilst you have some salient points I think there is a couple of things you may have missed. Firstly, the I6 is several generations ahead of the alloytech in terms of development; ford have honed this engine to produce the goods on a frugal amount of petrol as well as managing to keep class leading torque above the competitors by no less than 15-20%.

This is not a small accomplishment. Furthermore, Holden have only managed to keep up with fords "complicated" designs by going for much larger capacities ie LS6 etc. Whilst I agree that Holden will get direct injection which will contribute to fuel consumption; so will Ford - and they already have their fuel consumption down to 10.2 l/100k.

Just today I saw on that crap show "Test Drive" they had the daewoo epica and they talked about its frugality; 9.3l/100k - wow. Problem is it's a 6 with only 115kw of power hauling a 1680kg car. The point is, that Ford own holden on their develoipment of the 6 when they can accomplish those sorts of figures. Oh, and let's not forget that they are also reliable too.

[AU-MUSTD]

Oh, and let's not forget that they are also reliable too.[/QUOTE]

Havnt heard of any problems with the alloytech which is an acomplishment considering how new they are. The reliability was not a strong point of the ba i6 l owned which from day dot had constant un solved problems with starting and cam sensor's , water pumps constantly leaking and various power steering issues. Direct injection will transform the alloytech in a huge way when it comes on board.

[MoreHPformyXR6]

Originally Posted by puts99

If Ford had half a brain, they'd make a point about the competition's cars origins in the TV commericials. And do it well.

Totally agree Holden and other's have no problem with this Ford need to push it good points eg Fiesta is built in Germany enough said.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by ltd

Firstly, the I6 is several generations ahead of the alloytech in terms of development; ford have honed this engine to produce the goods on a frugal amount of petrol as well as managing to keep class leading torque above the competitors by no less than 15-20%.

Sorry, but I think that is quite a misinformed statement.
Please elaborate as to how the Alloytec is "several generations behind in development??"
The HFV6 has a very impressive design brief and utilises up to date technology, materials and construction techniques. Remember, these engines are built for global consumption, therefore they have had significant input from engineers all around the world.
The difference in torque between the Alloytec and the Ford I6 is not due to any sort of technical superiority of the Ford engine, the answer is simple; "There is no replacement for displacement"
If the Alloytec was increased to 4.0 there is no logical reason why it wouldn't match or even exceed the torque and fuel consumption of the Ford I6.
Furthermore the Alloytec has proven to be a reliable engine straight out of the box without any major issues whatsoever. Remember it has taken ford decades to get the I6 to where it is today and it has been far from perfect along the way.
Not trying to start an argument, just stating facts.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by stevz

If the Alloytec was increased to 4.0 there is no logical reason why it wouldn't match or even exceed the torque and fuel consumption of the Ford I6.

Not 100% correct. Torque is not only related to engine capacity but also bore versus stroke ratio. The Falcon 4.0L I6 is an undersquare engine meaning that it will produce more low down torque then a 4.0l V6 Alloytech engine.

FF

[burnz]

Originally Posted by AU-MUSTD

The reliability was not a strong point of the ba i6 l owned which from day dot had constant un solved problems with starting and cam sensor's , water pumps constantly leaking and various power steering issues. Direct injection will transform the alloytech in a huge way when it comes on board.

to this day i've still not heard the V6 direct injection.
i have heard the V6 D.O.D.

[samftr]

I like the fact that you can run an inline 6 falcon on lpg for 13 years and not have a drama with it, whilst the alloytech v6 will have severe valve recession running on said fuel in under 50,000km...

I know where my bum will be parked.. Its not that hard to see...
have a look at some of the threads I have put pics/videos/etc in of my ef, 354,000km and its still kicking along nicely.
I'm sure the timing chain guides are on their way out, and the power steering pump might die one day and the same with the alternator..


The boss has a holdwoo barina, 50,000km on the clock. it brakes well, goes well and is good on fuel. its had a few niggly little things go wrong, but its been a good car to him, albeit a salary sacrifice type setup but you get what you pay for.

(doubt it will make it past 200,000)

Now he wants to get a craptiva, I'll keep a close eye on it. So far its got a decent equipment list etc. got a 5 speed auto, and a diesel engine too..

At the end of the day these manufacturers are only here to make money.
So if they can do this and make the product cheaper overseas or by other means then they will no doubt do it.


Take a look at our beloved falcon sedans over the past 15 years.

improved ride/handling/brakes/performance/economy - well thats debatable that one ;)

but they have also cheapened things up and made them less user serviceable.


all to do with the bottom line!

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by stevz

Sorry, but I think that is quite a misinformed statement.
Please elaborate as to how the Alloytec is "several generations behind in development??"
The HFV6 has a very impressive design brief and utilises up to date technology, materials and construction techniques. Remember, these engines are built for global consumption, therefore they have had significant input from engineers all around the world.
The difference in torque between the Alloytec and the Ford I6 is not due to any sort of technical superiority of the Ford engine, the answer is simple; "There is no replacement for displacement"
If the Alloytec was increased to 4.0 there is no logical reason why it wouldn't match or even exceed the torque and fuel consumption of the Ford I6.
Furthermore the Alloytec has proven to be a reliable engine straight out of the box without any major issues whatsoever. Remember it has taken ford decades to get the I6 to where it is today and it has been far from perfect along the way.
Not trying to start an argument, just stating facts.

From the seat of the pants the VE Alloytec is a dog I have to admit I prefer driving the Camry's to it somehow they got a large capacity hi tech V6 and made it weak and sound like shite only Holden could pull that off.

Not trying to start an argument just statin a fact.

The Alloytec V6 will never match the Barra because they have different design briefs.

The Barra is designed with the Falcon in mind meaning lots of low down torque for pulling a hefty large RWD sedan.

The Alloytec is designed for mid sized FWD cars thus why it lacks any inkling of torque whatsoever.

There has been a backlash against the Alloytec V6 in America thus why they still have the Buick V6 in production, many Holden supporters I have met prefer the Buick V6 to the Alloytec.

Main point is that the I6 is a better design from an engineering viewpoint with the problem being packaging though I think the Barras long stroke makes up for that

[smoke]

drive a stock bf 6cyl and drive a stock ve v6.
i have.
the bf runs rings around the ve in both straight line performance and cornering.
the sv6 lifts the bar up for the v6 with its higher output engine, and although its supposed to be quicker, it really does not feel it.
personally, i do think the handling of the sv6 does match the xr6, and so it should, its supposed to be a brand new car.

i also had a company car barina, 06 plate.
it was by far the worst handling, slowest and uncomfortable new car on the market. i was lucky to get 400km per tank when i was driving it lightly. i ended up giving it back and drove my car to work and back.

[Deanodriver]

Originally Posted by burnz

to this day i've still not heard the V6 direct injection.
i have heard the V6 D.O.D.

It's not on a Holden yet, but it's going to be offered on the next Cadillac CTS (which I'd assume uses a variant of the Alloytec), which I think offers about 300hp (~220kw or so).

Personally, I think the Ford engine's a proven unit with plenty of stump-pulling torque and pretty reliable now (if the head issues have been fixed, definitely). I do wish they'd try and make it lighter, though. I wonder if how many kilos they could shave off with an alloy block, assuming they could still keep the reliability and strength?

Just as well they haven't considered dropping it for the 3.5L V6 in the US-market Taurus, but it probly isn't available in North-South anyway.

On topic: forget the Barina, people should just work harder and get a Fiesta/Jazz/Yaris instead, or get one of the very good secondhand examples out there.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by smoke

drive a stock bf 6cyl and drive a stock ve v6.
i have.
the bf runs rings around the ve in both straight line performance and cornering.
the sv6 lifts the bar up for the v6 with its higher output engine, and although its supposed to be quicker, it really does not feel it.
personally, i do think the handling of the sv6 does match the xr6, and so it should, its supposed to be a brand new car.

I tend to agree with you regarding Omega vs XT, however judging from my own personal experiences, the 195kw version in the SV6/Calais/Statesman is no slug by any means and is a fine engine IMO.
I recently drove a WM Statesman V6 and to be honest I was expecting it to struggle in the heavier Statesman. To the contrary though, I was quite surprised. Acceleration felt strong and effortless and the engine did not feel like it was straining at all, despite the extra weight. Performance wise I would honestly say that it is just about on par with the BF N/A 6, or at least the difference is nowhere near as big as some would have you believe. I also found it to be perfectly smooth and quiet, all these claims I read about them being harsh and rattly are totally unfounded and just laughable really.

As for handling, sorry, but I have to say the VE wins hands down. It just sticks to the road like its on rails. Corners can be taken at ridiculous speeds with far more confidence than any ba/bf or pre ve I have driven.

[sexr6tasy]

So the ve beats the old ba/bf wow good job holden