Feds to Prop Up Our Last Two Oil Refineries.

[csv8]

"The Federal Government has pledged to prop up Australia's last two oil refineries – after two of the remaining four announced their closures in the past six months.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced today a $2 billion support package for the local oil industry, which would be required to maintain sufficient reserves of petrol and diesel for our national security.

Australia is now down to two oil refineries nationally – and one of those is under a cloud, with its future to be decided within days or weeks.

Australia has been running on fumes for the past five years with just four oil refineries in operation since 2015.

Between 2003 and 2015 there were seven oil refineries nationally......" https://www.caradvice.com.au/953005/...-need-to-know/

[tweeked]

We are starting to learn that the economic rationalism does not work.

[Dr Smith]

I hope this has an iron-clad agreement so we don't get another Kodak...in fact I'd go so far as having equity in the business....if you are going to hand over money at least have something to show for it afterwards...and some pricing control at the pump.

The government needs to have an agreement that favours us....sadly I cannot think of one situation where government money to a company has favoured the government.

[roKWiz]

Is this an election year ?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Is this an election year ?

Not until everyone is vaccinated.

[XD 351 Ute]

They have got rocks in their heads if they don't.
If we don't make our own juice, we are fully cactus.

Ed

[simon varley]

this shouldn't be about elections or economics. this is national security. we must have the ability to refine crude here and not just for fuels

[Mowdit]

Ampol's Bribane refinery under a cloud/thinking of closing......
There was a plan to close it 5 years after closing the Kurnell site !
That was 6 years ago now

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I hope this has an iron-clad agreement so we don't get another Kodak...in fact I'd go so far as having equity in the business....if you are going to hand over money at least have something to show for it afterwards...and some pricing control at the pump.

The government needs to have an agreement that favours us....sadly I cannot think of one situation where government money to a company has favoured the government.

I Don't think looking after us is their priority.
t has also been suggested that the refinaries get upgrades to reduce Sulfur. With this, 95 will be the min fuel standard. I can see price rises all round with the excuse being, the extra refining to reduce the Sulfur. I guess they'll have to add some other nasty into the mix, which costs more coin.

So the TAX payer is paying these guys to stay open. We also pay 42cents in the dollar TAX for the fuel we pump.

How Good is Australia!!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Is this an election year ?

I dunno but I'm not above receiving brown paper bags with green notes in them

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by simon varley

this shouldn't be about elections or economics. this is national security. we must have the ability to refine crude here and not just for fuels

Think you will find it is about security if the government predictions of a war with China is impending we will need fuel for the brief conflict we will be in.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

Think you will find it is about security if the government predictions of a war with China is impending we will need fuel for the brief conflict we will be in.

And (very) Brief It Will be...

[simon varley]

it's not even that. If we don't refine on shore then anyone can pretty well hold us to ransom. You're worried about fuel going to $2 if they prop up the refineries? Well you should be worried a lot more if 'someone' decides to embargo the refined fuel, or bump up the price. Look at what is happening in Florida right now.

And it's not just fuel we get from the refineries. lubricants, plastics and fertilisers all come from the crude we refine here

[Franco Cozzo]

Been a very sudden u-turn on behalf of our government, in regards to these things with the wakeup call coming from China.

You could have seen this coming from miles away in the last 20 years, what an absolute joke.

I'm with the others with the suggestion tax payer should have some equity in this, its an infrastructure essential, alternatively spend a few billion on a government owned refinery and create legislation around it that it can't be privatised for 99 years.

[tweeked]

Gotta rename one of them Pappagallo's

[Bossxr8]

Along with cleaner fuel. 95 becomes the base fuel in 2023/24, with 10ppm sulphur levels. A big improvement on the 150ppm of the current 91.

This will open our market up to Euro 6 engines with petrol particle filters. Can't sell these engines in australia atm as the high level of sulphur kills the filters.



Not sure what these cleaner fuels will mean for the enthusiast though? What will it mean for power, fuel economy etc?



And i really hope the government does not let the fuel companies rip motorists off by charging the 10-15 cent per litre extra they charge for 95, when it only costs about 2-3 cents extra to make. I'm sure they will take their chance to line their pockets with the extra profits from premium fuel though. Bastards.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I dunno but I'm not above receiving brown paper bags with green notes in them

In that case every year is an election year in NSW.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Along with cleaner fuel. 95 becomes the base fuel in 2023/24, with 10ppm sulphur levels. A big improvement on the 150ppm of the current 91.

This will open our market up to Euro 6 engines with petrol particle filters. Can't sell these engines in australia atm as the high level of sulphur kills the filters.



Not sure what these cleaner fuels will mean for the enthusiast though? What will it mean for power, fuel economy etc?



And i really hope the government does not let the fuel companies rip motorists off by charging the 10-15 cent per litre extra they charge for 95, when it only costs about 2-3 cents extra to make. I'm sure they will take their chance to line their pockets with the extra profits from premium fuel though. Bastards.

The government allows the free market to dictate price of fuel if you did not happen to know, also if fuel price goes up so does gst, don't think there will be much interreference from any Australian Federal or State government from price rises and definitely not from the greens.

[xb74_black]

Seven Sisters was the name of the company Papagallo worked for before...

Originally Posted by tweeked

Gotta rename one of them Pappagallo's

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

The government allows the free market to dictate price of fuel if you did not happen to know, also if fuel price goes up so does gst, don't think there will be much interreference from any Australian Federal or State government from price rises and definitely not from the greens.

I understand that. But to make the 95 the base fuel, and then slap the ludicrously greedy profit margin on top is just unacceptable.

The mention of the government funding being linked to profit margin might be the detail that will see it happen or not. Not sure how that will play out.

[DJM83]

Good.


Booooo EVs.

Least I'll, have some fuel for a few more years

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

The government allows the free market to dictate price of fuel if you did not happen to know, also if fuel price goes up so does gst, don't think there will be much interreference from any Australian Federal or State government from price rises and definitely not from the greens.

No not really as you do know that Australia wide fuel prices were previously determined by Federal Government legislation.

Then the idiot Howard decided to make it a free market which screwed the pooch bigtime as it was obvious to everyone but him that the big players would eventually rule the roost and charge what they liked, which they now do and have for sometime.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

No not really as you do know that Australia wide fuel prices were previously determined by Federal Government legislation.

Then the idiot Howard decided to make it a free market which screwed the pooch bigtime as it was obvious to everyone but him that the big players would eventually rule the roost and charge what they liked, which they now do and have for sometime.

I love how people moan about fuel prices.

I can't remember the last time I looked at the price, and my car isn't the most economical.

Need it buy it.
Stop sooking

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I love how people moan about fuel prices.

I can't remember the last time I looked at the price, and my car isn't the most economical.

Need it buy it.
Stop sooking

Some of us run businesses using delivery vans so fuel costs are considered all the time...like the time our Transit Custom was in the panel shop and the Hiace petrol V6 from Budget cost nearly 2 times the fuel bill of the Custom.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I love how people moan about fuel prices.

I can't remember the last time I looked at the price, and my car isn't the most economical.

Need it buy it.
Stop sooking

I hope you're not dumb enough to assume from my response to just pointing out to Officemanager that previously the Govt did regulate fuel but due to Howard that subsequently ceased, that I somehow give a fig about fuel costs because I don't give a rats bum and probably way more than you. But some do and for good reasons so blame Howard.

My two vehicles both have long range tanks, ie 120 and 150lts as I do big trips such as across Oz so far 16 times and I'm off again in a few months. Whilst less fuel consumption can be a bonus it's not an inhibitor.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Along with cleaner fuel. 95 becomes the base fuel in 2023/24, with 10ppm sulphur levels. A big improvement on the 150ppm of the current 91.

This will open our market up to Euro 6 engines with petrol particle filters. Can't sell these engines in australia atm as the high level of sulphur kills the filters.



Not sure what these cleaner fuels will mean for the enthusiast though? What will it mean for power, fuel economy etc?



And i really hope the government does not let the fuel companies rip motorists off by charging the 10-15 cent per litre extra they charge for 95, when it only costs about 2-3 cents extra to make. I'm sure they will take their chance to line their pockets with the extra profits from premium fuel though. Bastards.

If we got rid of 91 octane now we would be paying less for 95 octane, most cars made from 1999 on should be running on 95 octane by rights anyway.
The claims of 91 is only due to the knock sensor cutting in to save the engine.
The engines from 1999 on were designed and tuned to run on 95 by rights.


The Australian Government should of been hounded like VW was, the government is fooling the people with substandard fuel like 91 unleaded, not to mention that they make more tax money out of idiots using 91 because the Nation uses more fuel.
Every time that your engine knock sensor kicks in and retards the spark timing you are using more fuel.

I remember when E10 first came in and many people would claim how well their new model cars went on it, boy does it fly using E10 they would say, well E10 was 94 octane that's why and if they used 95 unleaded they would experience the same improvement in power, why well because the engine was designed for 95 octane.

People steer clear of 95 because it cost way to much, but some have dabbled with E10 and found out the performance gain.

Nowadays in QLD one has to be carful with E10 because they don't state the octane, we have 91 E10 now and 94 E10 and 91 E10 gives no advantage at all so it's not the ethanol that is giving you performance, it's the octane rating is where it's all at.

My 2015 car says states 91 octane but it's a pain to drive on 91 as it's so gutless off the line, it runs best on 95 and I have used 98 and fact is it performs better on 95.
My car has 10.5:1 compression, you can't run 91 octane with 10.5:1 compression without the knock sensor kicking in and retarding the spark timing and as soon as an engine has to reduce spark timing you loose fuel economy and power.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

If we got rid of 91 octane now we would be paying less for 95 octane, most cars made from 1999 on should be running on 95 octane by rights anyway.
The claims of 91 is only due to the knock sensor cutting in to save the engine.
The engines from 1999 on were designed and tuned to run on 95 by rights.


The Australian Government should of been hounded like VW was, the government is fooling the people with substandard fuel like 91 unleaded, not to mention that they make more tax money out of idiots using 91 because the Nation uses more fuel.
Every time that your engine knock sensor kicks in and retards the spark timing you are using more fuel.

I remember when E10 first came in and many people would claim how well their new model cars went on it, boy does it fly using E10 they would say, well E10 was 94 octane that's why and if they used 95 unleaded they would experience the same improvement in power, why well because the engine was designed for 95 octane.

People steer clear of 95 because it cost way to much, but some have dabbled with E10 and found out the performance gain.

Nowadays in QLD one has to be carful with E10 because they don't state the octane, we have 91 E10 now and 94 E10 and 91 E10 gives no advantage at all so it's not the ethanol that is giving you performance, it's the octane rating is where it's all at.

My 2015 car says states 91 octane but it's a pain to drive on 91 as it's so gutless off the line, it runs best on 95 and I have used 98 and fact is it performs better on 95.
My car has 10.5:1 compression, you can't run 91 octane with 10.5:1 compression without the knock sensor kicking in and retarding the spark timing and as soon as an engine has to reduce spark timing you loose fuel economy and power.

We’re seeing a confluence of two things:
1. Australia is down to its last two oil refineries, the only thing standing between oil security and higher prices due to less than three months supply on hand. Any hint of tightening stock will kick up prices.
2. The government realising that if it let’s point 1 happen, the legislation dropping 91 will mean that all imported 95 octane fuel will result in much higher prices. If motorists end up paying 15-20 cpl more, it could real bad for the government

The combination of those two points means that going forward with 95 and 15ppm sulphur could be political dynamite if the price is not regulated or at least buffered by local production.......this is a conundrum for the government because it has to by necessity get involved by supporting those refineries.

E10 as you know is usually the blend of RON 91 with 10% Ethanol, this increases the RON to 94 but the MON remains around 82 unlike RON 95 petrol, with 85 MON. This is why E10 can be bad in higher compression engines or boosted applications, the MON isn’t high enough to suppress detonation under load.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

No not really as you do know that Australia wide fuel prices were previously determined by Federal Government legislation.

Then the idiot Howard decided to make it a free market which screwed the pooch bigtime as it was obvious to everyone but him that the big players would eventually rule the roost and charge what they liked, which they now do and have for sometime.

It all started under Bob Hawk and Paul Keating in 1983 when they floated the Australian dollar, there was a lot of changes since which was better for our economy.

[DRU842]

The Federal Govt has a conundrum on its hands. Oil refinery's here have all used relatively old technology and been small; neither is a recipe for competitive production. Trying to find someone to fix these issues, for this market, in the current 'low carbon' investment market will almost certainly lead to more Gov Co support. The political 'cost' could be suicidal for a sitting government.

[Bill M]

The big move was under the then PM Malcom Fraser and Treasurer Howard with "World parity pricing" Those old enough may remember

https://www.drive.com.au/news/fraser...0081231-146ao/