Electric Power Steering

[johnydep]

The VF Commodore uses it, so does the the wife's Honda Accord Euro. Great idea - drops fuel consumption, power assistance is better regulated, no oil leaks.

However, what happens when they wear or break down?

I've felt a Mazda 2 with a EPS fault; sounds of crunching when turning and felt very rough. Mazda replaced it for free out of warranty.

Anyone have any experience of cost to repair/replace.

I see that the VF uses a belt drive between the electric motor and gear. I know that some timing belts are good for about 10 - 20 years, but what about for steering? Doesn't look like a serviceable item -


http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...etails-118655/

[2011G6E]

Huh...thinking that new cars are designed to even last for 10 or twenty years...

I'd bet half the stuff in even pricier new cars is cactus by the ten year mark, requiring extremely expensive replacement.

Sad to say, cars are a throw away item now...most people by the stats change thier car every two to three years. They're not designed now for one owner to keep it for twenty years.

[Nikked]

XY owners were most likely saying EB's wont last 10 years...

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Huh...thinking that new cars are designed to even last for 10 or twenty years...

I'd bet half the stuff in even pricier new cars is cactus by the ten year mark, requiring extremely expensive replacement.

Sad to say, cars are a throw away item now...most people by the stats change thier car every two to three years. They're not designed now for one owner to keep it for twenty years.

I'm still seeing quite a few AU's and BA's on the road. Holden VT's & MCV20 Camry's. How old are these, and how many more years do you reckon they'll be on the road for?

My point when mentioning 10 - 20 years was meant to also convey mileage; 100,000 - 200,000 km.

[Davehoos]

I replaced hundreds of Just out of warranty steering racks. dozens of warranty service swaps. Hugh industry in exchange racks for a reason.

These will be no worse--getting into my 240K 12 yr old AU with original rack and second pump.

I would be more worried about the wires that control it.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

I replaced hundreds of Just out of warranty steering racks. dozens of warranty service swaps. Hugh industry in exchange racks for a reason.

These will be no worse--getting into my 240K 12 yr old AU with original rack and second pump.

I would be more worried about the wires that control it.

Less strain on wiring than a hydraulic pump!

[GTP-RPD]

I have a question if you break down due to a flat battery can you steer the car off the road of to a safe spot?

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I'm still seeing quite a few AU's and BA's on the road. Holden VT's & MCV20 Camry's. How old are these, and how many more years do you reckon they'll be on the road for?

My point when mentioning 10 - 20 years was meant to also convey mileage; 100,000 - 200,000 km.

Yes but when your talking AU-VT eras your also still using technology that has been around for 10-20-(and in the case of traditional power steering) 50+ years. So the long term effects have been found and rectified. Not to mention still being able to steer a car that is power assisted when something goes wrong.

Electronic steering has been around how long in mainstream commercial applications for public use in cars how long? SFA compared to traditional power steering. Bugs are far from ironed out with no more commodores being made, no more development here from when the last car rolls off the line. Therefore less fixes and replacement parts for when things go wrong.

It may just be the throw away item that people debate over in the end.

[Bushbasher]

Somebody please educate me as I know bugger all about electric steering. Are we talking full fly by wire steering or electrically power assisted but still with a traditional steering column and a direct connection to the wheels?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Somebody please educate me as I know bugger all about electric steering. Are we talking full fly by wire steering or electrically power assisted but still with a traditional steering column and a direct connection to the wheels?

Electrical motor assisted steering on a traditional steering column.

[Magee]

My sister had a 2001 Astra that we sold in 2012 that had electrical assisted power steering. No problems with the unit but I did have scare when the alternator failed and the steering became very heavy because the electric motor had no power. Once the alternator was fixed all was good. Same could happen if a hydraulic assisted system dropped a belt.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Revolver

Yes but when your talking AU-VT eras your also still using technology that has been around for 10-20-(and in the case of traditional power steering) 50+ years. So the long term effects have been found and rectified. Not to mention still being able to steer a car that is power assisted when something goes wrong.

Electronic steering has been around how long in mainstream commercial applications for public use in cars how long? SFA compared to traditional power steering. Bugs are far from ironed out with no more commodores being made, no more development here from when the last car rolls off the line. Therefore less fixes and replacement parts for when things go wrong.

It may just be the throw away item that people debate over in the end.

Electric Power Steering has been around commercially for a lot longer than you think (Google it). It is now an 'off the shelf' item, with only requirements from the vehicle manufacturer to sort out being fitment location, alignment and software.

"Not to mention still being able to steer a car that is power assisted when something goes wrong." Hydraulic power steering is very tough to turn when there is no power. If you look at both systems - hydraulic & electric, you will see that if power is lost to the steering system it would be the hydraulic system that gives the greatest resistance to turning.

The hydraulic power steering system uses fluid under pressure to push on a piston to give 'assistance' to the driver. If the pump stops the driver then needs to not only use extra effort against the tyre friction, but also to force the movement of the hydraulic fluid out of the chambers. Hydraulic power steering is requires much more effort than no PWS.

With EPS the effort should be minimal, other than road/tyre friction, due to the nature of electrical motors. Of course there will be some extra drag, but nothing compared to the effort that hydraulic steering requires when the motor stops or belt breaks.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Somebody please educate me as I know bugger all about electric steering. Are we talking full fly by wire steering or electrically power assisted but still with a traditional steering column and a direct connection to the wheels?

Infinity Q50 has steer by wire.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Infinity Q50 has steer by wire.

Scary stuff! Though they do have a back up mechanical device.

[Davehoos]

We have fly by wire grader. Scarey stuff on the road, brilliant on the job.. hit a bump in the air cusion seat and hang on.

It has 3 backup systems uses a number of ecu incase one dies, oil comes from different suplies even has accumulator and a starter motor sized oil pump in case the engine stops or the gear box dies.



looked at Suzuki jimny [sierra]in japan 12 years ago. 650cc turbo and electric power steering part of the steering columb. This system worked great ant was fitted to carry van and medium cars in OZ. even came with the indian models.

[GASWAGON]

If the rubber belt breaks as seen in above pic ther will be NO STEERING at all....At least in this Holden design anyways......I would prefer a chain to do that part of the job.

Give it ten years when all these VF's are stacking left right and centre due to broken steering belts......Unless they are supposed to be changed like engine timing belts at say 100,000k's ???

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by EF_6

If the rubber belt breaks as seen in above pic ther will be NO STEERING at all....At least in this Holden design anyways......I would prefer a chain to do that part of the job.

Give it ten years when all these VF's are stacking left right and centre due to broken steering belts......Unless they are supposed to be changed like engine timing belts at say 100,000k's ???

Wrong!

The belt is only driven by the electric motor, which gives power assistance. The column is connected directly to the rack; just like a normal hydraulic power steering system.

If the belt brakes you only lose power assistance, it is still drivable. Though I'd like to know the life expectancy of the belt and repeatability.

While we're here - Since the VE Commodore, fuel filters are not replaceable. Don't even know if there is one. Holden dealers don't list a part number.

[Davehoos]

the belt will be a toothed belt and they normally strip the teeth.

the nut [pulley] should be about the same as a rack with hydrolic failure.
On the opposite side you see the standard pinion shaft setup with a range of cheep sencors to replace expencive hydrolic spools..

I be more concerned about electronics, wires and power supplies as they would combine the control into body modules or the like. much prefer it to be self contained.

Had to repair a late model commodore that hit a post when reversing. stability control had a melt down and the little old lady abandoned ship. Any faults with the electric steering I expect the same.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

I have a question if you break down due to a flat battery can you steer the car off the road of to a safe spot?

Well...im confused...

Its not like your car is all of a sudden going to break down due to a flat battery whilst driving...

And even then, if your engine is stopped, its stopped...hydraulic steering racks are no different, once the engine stops spinning, the pump stops and you have very heavy steering...



What is very interesting (amusing) to see is the alarm and concern about the technologies that are becoming integrated in cars these days. Stuff like FBW taking over common systems like hydraulic steering and throttle controls...

FBW has been used in aircraft successfully since the late 50's, early 60's...and there is a lot more danger in putting something up in the air relying on electric powered servos

[Davehoos]

Fuel filter is in the tank. Dealer sold us these with the service packs. ripped off. plastic bucket for the pump with a fiber strainer. if its got blocked then the tank should come out.

It needs to be replaced when the pumps stuffed.

I was wondering about the injectors, The cars we have are 3.0 direct injection. I guess they have a strainer or pass crud.

80 000km and the fuel not been the problem.

[Davehoos]

Fly by wire is extreamly scarey for automotive use. voltages very hard to regulate or monitor. service life of an Australian car is...

As a tradesman dealing with the public you learn quickly It only a few people that understand-maintanence and risk. There is a reason that we are required to get police involved.

Aircraft operators have extensive training and inspections. Apples-Oranges.

grader at work has on average 50-70 faults logged per 250 hours. operators only bother to let you know about the abandon ship alarms and the back to base monitor only seam to be interested in air cleaners.

joy stick cost few $K each and last a few years.

[pmacc]

While EPS is a leap in automotive engineering and seems to have a lot of efficiency advantages over hydraulic assistance the biggest issue that they still haven’t cracked is road feel. All the EPS systems that I have come across just feel light and disconnected which is fine for a city run about but when you want to push a car and want some feel/feedback from the road it just isn’t there. Now I haven’t tried the new Porsche or BMW EPS systems so maybe there is some hope but I got a feeing cars like the new Mustangs steering won’t have that ‘right’ feel

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by pmacc

While EPS is a leap in automotive engineering and seems to have a lot of efficiency advantages over hydraulic assistance the biggest issue that they still haven’t cracked is road feel. All the EPS systems that I have come across just feel light and disconnected which is fine for a city run about but when you want to push a car and want some feel/feedback from the road it just isn’t there. Now I haven’t tried the new Porsche or BMW EPS systems so maybe there is some hope but I got a feeing cars like the new Mustangs steering won’t have that ‘right’ feel

Don't worry i think you will be fine with what comes out soon.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by pmacc

hydraulic assistance the biggest issue that they still haven’t cracked is road feel.

All in time, even hydraulic systems vary in feel, AU's (and they are similar to mercs in this department) have a very "light" feel in the steering...but to be honest, with the VE's I've driven, I couldn't tell if they were electric or not...

[atmoxr6]

Don't the diesel territories hav eps ?

[Wretched]

A lot of speculation and "the sky is falling" panic.
Cars worldwide have been packed with electronic technology for years now (ABS, airbags, EFI, central locking, drive by wire, etc) and pretty much been reliable.
I cannot see why EPAS won't be either. It is all dependant upon the manufacturer, their supplier and quality of the product.

[burnz]

the world of CNC machine mills use servo driven ball screws for over 30 yrs with out a failure.,
and they get flogged 24/7 without a rest, they do auto grease thou.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Well...im confused...

Its not like your car is all of a sudden going to break down due to a flat battery whilst driving...

Certainly will if the alternator is cactus and not charging the battery, thats when you hope you get somewhere close to the RC figure listed on the battery.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by pmacc

While EPS is a leap in automotive engineering and seems to have a lot of efficiency advantages over hydraulic assistance the biggest issue that they still haven’t cracked is road feel. All the EPS systems that I have come across just feel light and disconnected which is fine for a city run about but when you want to push a car and want some feel/feedback from the road it just isn’t there. Now I haven’t tried the new Porsche or BMW EPS systems so maybe there is some hope but I got a feeing cars like the new Mustangs steering won’t have that ‘right’ feel

I have a Honda and VF with EPS, and out of the two the VF does feel slightly better. But to say that they "feel light and disconnected" is incorrect. Unless you're Alain Prost, most drivers would not know the difference.

EPS has been out for a very long time now. I remember reading about it 15 years ago and saying to my mate - 'no way will that take off, what happens if there's an electrical failure? Besides, it'll feel like driving a simulator'.

Things change and improve. If I had a choice, I'd choose EPS every day.

On another note: Tested the steering with the ignition off last night, steering was heavy but still steerable. Felt like my old XC, which had no PS. It felt lighter than a hydraulic power steering when the engine stalls. So I reckon safer.

I've been told that the belt system was chosen for it's quietness.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

Fly by wire is extreamly scarey for automotive use. voltages very hard to regulate or monitor. service life of an Australian car is...

As a tradesman dealing with the public you learn quickly It only a few people that understand-maintanence and risk. There is a reason that we are required to get police involved.

Aircraft operators have extensive training and inspections. Apples-Oranges.

grader at work has on average 50-70 faults logged per 250 hours. operators only bother to let you know about the abandon ship alarms and the back to base monitor only seam to be interested in air cleaners.

joy stick cost few $K each and last a few years.

A qualified competent person with the correct training would have no problem working on electric power steering, only the backyard so called tradie would struggle.

Not scary at all as modern technology would have to meet safety standards in event of breakdowns.