Can you beleive these CEO's...including Ford?

[XWGT]

I couldnt believe me eyes when i read this in The Age this morning.

All 3 CEOs of the major car companies, turned up in Washington to beg for money, having ALL FLOWN IN SEPERATE PRIVATE CORPORATE JETS to the hearings.

Sometimes you truly have to wonder if these companies should survive (and this is coming from a life long rev head performance car and local manufacturing supporter)

http://business.theage.com.au/busine...1120-6cst.html

[RG]

And? Of course they have private jets, nearly every company of that size would.

[XWGT]

And?

Your arriving to beg for $25 billion dollars of tax payers money claiming your all about to go broke......and you all flew seperately.......in your own private jets?

Yes businesses have private jets. They tend to be the ones that are returning positive results.

As one Senator noted........they didnt even bother to jet pool......

I certainly would NOT be happy for Ford Australia to demand tax payer relief if they were flying Melb - Syd via private jet to do it.

[blueoval]

I think that since the government has 'given' cash handouts to the banks, the car companies are looking for the same generosity.

I did hear that when the U.S. banks did receive the bail out cash from the government, they all paid themselves all bonuses. Now that makes me sick.

This is all unconfirmed rumors btw. I heard this from FOX news.

[flappist]

These guys cost zillions of dollars an hour and are responsible for more than the leaders of most countries.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have them waiting at a commercial airport and then travelling without computer access, direct pabx access and none of their support staff or infrastructure?

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by flappist

These guys cost zillions of dollars an hour and are responsible for more than the leaders of most countries.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have them waiting at a commercial airport and then travelling without computer access, direct pabx access and none of their support staff or infrastructure?

I agree. Fancy them having to ride in commercial plane with the plebs. I dont know how they could live with themselves to lower their standards. :P

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

These guys cost zillions of dollars an hour and are responsible for more than the leaders of most countries.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have them waiting at a commercial airport and then travelling without computer access, direct pabx access and none of their support staff or infrastructure?

Business class not good enough for a domestive flight?

The bottom line is........yes.

And while these leaders may will be responsible for large organisations.....their pocketing $15mill PA for it.....so their hardly struggling. And pocketing $15mill at a times where their organisations are clocking up losses that are truly off the scale.

The basic premise is though.............if you want tax payer funded bail outs......ditch the corporate jet......get your bum on a business class service like 97% of other CEO's and Exec Managers and at least APPEAR to be concerned that your companies are racking up losses that are larger than some countries GDP! And it would probably NOT be a wise thing to mention to people that your have "no option" but to sack 1000's of workers while arriving in 3 different private jets from the same departure city to the same destination city.

When times are good.........go for it. But at least a little humilty while asking the tax payer to bail out your massive failures probably woulndt have gone astray.

[RG]

You do realise that these jets will be all owned/leased so even if they didn't use them they would still be paying?

Also waiting for a domestic flight is usually not feasible for major CEO's, they don't just sit in offices on the phone all day.

[dom_105]

Much ado about nothing.

I hope those making the decisions do not take this into account when making them, because one of those three going under will have serious side effects.

So they get million dollar salaies, big deal. They are hardly going to be on 52k a year, and when you have to put up with the headaches of employing 300,000 between them, it puts it into perspective.

[uranium_death]

No surprise.

Comedy Inc (or one of those shows) did a spoof of a CEO.

The old CEO retires and gets his multimillion dollar payout, while the new CEO comes along, accepts the position, then immediately retires, quoting family life a priority. In turn, he gets his multi-million dollar payout.

Look at the ANZ bank. Its CEO gets ~$250,000 a week, and they have done a poor job of running the bank.

This world rewards incompetence...I am still waiting for mine.

[guzzis3]

2 things.

The jet thing was political grandstanding. The US pollies are having a ball brow beating these CEO's.

Warren Buffet, one of the world's richest men, did nicely without a private jet for years. When he finally relented and got one he named it "unjustifiable" or something similar. He pays himself $100k/yr but runs one of the biggest business conglomerates in the world, including ironically a private jet maker or lease company, forget which. All this in a company that makes a huge profit, something like 20% growth since 1980!

The fact is that the big 3 have grossly overpaid executivees who have been visibly and demonstrably failing their companies for decades. Their salaries and perks are totally unjustifiable, but despite their deserving to go broke they are too big for the US gov to allow to go broke. The tug of war will be interesting to watch, we'll see how effective the pollies are in extracting compromises from them.

[ch33z1l]

This is what annoys the hell out of me with K Rudd, with his massive bill at APEC meeting in Bali..i think it was. Expenses like $3000 on room service and useless crap like that.

What frustrates me, is that many of our local MP's do alot for the community, but are unwilling to go federal, as they think they can be more beneficial in their local community.

[Sam_Boss260]

I agree, that in hard times offload or reduce your variable and luxury expenses.

Making a loss? Sell your private jet which is funded by the company. This is what the senators were trying to get to.. what are you prepared to do to to help your company. Plus, why don't they cut back their $15 mill salary to say $5 mill per year, which is still alot of money and then get paid the rest on profitability ie. if the company makes a profit they get a bigger pay check. Betya then the private jets would get sold.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Russell

You do realise that these jets will be all owned/leased so even if they didn't use them they would still be paying?

Also waiting for a domestic flight is usually not feasible for major CEO's, they don't just sit in offices on the phone all day.

Yes I realsie all of that. I also realise that that CEO of Japan Airlines, one of only a handful of profitable airlines in the world arrives at work everyday, by bus, and is paid an equivalent salary of around $USD 90,000.

I'm by no means saying we all work for nothing. I AM saying however, if your asking the public to bail you out at least ACT humble and grateful. Even if it is for only 12 hours............

[FTE217]

I'm sorry call me whatever you like as it will hurt many many normal honest hard working employees.
I really hope the US gov don't give any $$ to either of them......
Time has caught up with them and the domestic market especially Nth America is not giving the dividends they for so long have enjoyed riding off its back.
They all have been offering sub standard crap vehicles for so long that the average American has been starting to buy Jap cars who have invested over many years with plants and delivering the goods so to speak. Euros have also been gaining ground.

This is an opportunity for the big 3 to put a broom through their organisations, rationalise and cut the sweet heart deals that has strangled growth.
The wastage and the lack of accountability is a culture in manymany companys especially these 3 dinasaurs.

The US gov are being placed in a very touchy situation as Toyota/Mazda/Honda and whoever else is manufacturing motor cars there will have a right to ask for a hand out as well, they do after all employ Americans as well.

Going to be an interesting outcome. Just my thoughts.

[blackers10]

the crazy part would be.. unless they paid them selves bonuses to make that HUGE salary... they would get nearly half of it taken as tax...(minus what ever a good accountant could save)

i think ceo's should be paid a lower salary then get the big $$ when the company makes the big $$ not when they are struggling

[flappist]

Lets analyse this a bit.....

Sell the jet in a time of economic trouble so you can turn a 20++ million dollar asset into maybe 5 million, provided of course you can find a buyer. Yep clever.

Let your very expensive and very important decission makers waste large amounts of time in an airport and then on a commercial flight where they cannot use their phones or network connections. Yep real productive and clever.

Buy extra tickets for their PAs and infrastructure staff and have them waste large amounts of time as above. Yep that is a good way to save.

Ensure all meetings are at destinations that are served by direct flights so you do not have to change planes several times and make sure all meetings coincide with flight schedules and that the aircraft are not late.

Have any of you actually travelled in a corporate jet? It is not like what you see on TV. Corporate aircraft are normally very basic and are usually floating meeting places. A long time ago I actually used to fly one (PA31 not a jet).

Have any of you actually travelled on a jet in USA or Australia other than on holidays? Ever missed tha last flight in or out of Sydney/Tulla/Brisbane and had to spend the night at ridiculous expense and then wasted half the next day as all the mornig flights are booked out?

If someone said that all city people could not drive their cars to work and must take the bus or train to save carbon credits you would all scream your tits off and quote a zillion reason why it can't work.

The average greeny idiot who lives in a commune in a tree would not agree but he would have no idea what he was talking about would he? Except for the greenie members of parlement who would make a huge song and dance for the media so the dumb people would think they actually care.

[RG]

And that, Flappist, sums things up perfectly.

[guzzis3]

I understand what your saying, but it still remains that giving them $15 mill a year, and a jet and a staff hasn't produced a profit. Going to all those terribly important meetings hasn't produced a profit.

The truth is that GM et al would do just as well with a $100k CEO as the $15 mill CEO's they have now. If the company was growing or returning 20% plus per year you could argue the exectutive are value adding. The fact is these managment teams have failed miserably and are still collecting their winnings while simultaneously asking working class taxpayers to subsidise them. IMO...

[9triton]

got to agree with flappist as well- , however their is a precedent - lee Iaccoca ( father of the mustang - obligatory ford content!) when he was saving US chrysler in the late 70's:

'Lee Iacocca set the precedent in 1978, when he was chairman of Chrysler. Realizing the automaker was in dire financial straits, Iacocca fired executives and pushed the United Auto Workers to accept salary and benefit cuts. In an effort to lead by example, Iacocca lowered his own salary to $1 a year. Five years later, with a helping hand from the government, the company was restored to financial health.'


although ,i do believe it came with a caveat of a multi million dollar bonus for him when Chrysler was restored to health

[flappist]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

I understand what your saying, but it still remains that giving them $15 mill a year, and a jet and a staff hasn't produced a profit. Going to all those terribly important meetings hasn't produced a profit.

The truth is that GM et al would do just as well with a $100k CEO as the $15 mill CEO's they have now. If the company was growing or returning 20% plus per year you could argue the exectutive are value adding. The fact is these managment teams have failed miserably and are still collecting their winnings while simultaneously asking working class taxpayers to subsidise them. IMO...

You are kidding right? $100k CEO? What planet is that. $100k is what a coal miner or lower to middle manager in a medium company earns.

Most middle to senior managers I personally know earn 200-400k and I know several people who earn over $1,000,000 per year.

And that is just up here in sunny Hervey Bay.

[FalconXR6]

Extreemly valid point flappist.

I don't feel that the bloke who started the thread is objecting to the jet itself.

I feel he is objecting to what the jet symbolises.
He just hasn't quite worded his thoughts well enough to convey where he is coming from.

[guzzis3]

Originally Posted by flappist

You are kidding right? $100k CEO? What planet is that. $100k is what a coal miner or lower to middle manager in a medium company earns.

Most middle to senior managers I personally know earn 200-400k and I know several people who earn over $1,000,000 per year.

And that is just up here in sunny Hervey Bay.

Warren Buffet for one.

I'd probably do it for that provided there was an attractive bonus package based on real metrics. I know several CEO's of smaller companies here in Australia who make that sort of money, less bonuses. I'm an engineer and we are one of the best paid professions, but few engineers make over a mill doing engineering work. Your suggesting that exectutives are more valuable than engineers to a company like GM ? The reality is the salaries are simply an artifact. Every level of managment has to be paid X more than those below them. In a large organisation numbers of those levels get out of control and you end up with ridiculous salaries for executives. It has no bearing on reality.

Are you suggesting that Rick Wagoner adds value to GM equivalent to his renumeration every year ? I'd love to see that case. You'd better be a good QC

[b0son]

Corporate excess is basically whats under the spotlight. While times were great, people didnt object. But now that they are, the execs want to pass on their increased costs to maintain the bottom line and their pay-packet. Nice each-way bet....

When times are good, you put something aside and have contingencies for when times are not good. For some reason, execs this time around thought the boom would just keep on going on (do they teach economics in an MBA anymore???).

The US is about to lose its car industry if these CEOs are unwilling to make some pretty fundamental changes.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

You are kidding right? $100k CEO? What planet is that. .

As stated earleir, this one, right here. And a damn good one

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/jal-ceo-t...e/77452-7.html

As someone else noted above, I am mainly amazed not so much at the economics, but at the incredible lack of political savvy to turn up looking for a public bail out in what is generally regarded as the icon of corporate excess, the corporate jet. Three in fact.

(And yes I'm perfectly aware that a fully utilised private jet is more economical that flying business class everyday but its about perception in this case. Very bad PR)

[smee323]

What I can't see is the need for a jet, or travel at all.

In a world of real time communications, just get on the internerd and communicate. Long gone is the time where you had to rub shoulders or slap the man some skin. A face to face meeting would be the last thing needed. These bosses supposedly work long hours so it would not be a problem. And if they were in the know, they would use the latest forms of communication to assist their business.

The problems they currently face have been caused by themselves, not the factory workers or those slightly higher in the food chain. They, as good bosses and charged with the correct running of the company should have seen the writing on the wall, instead of cranking out more cars that people were not buying.

Toyata started building a hybrid, Honda did similar. Some Europeans are on a similar path. America’s response. We don’t need no stinking hybrids. Yet we see an x month or year waiting list for them.

Get smart. Share technology and partner up with another company doing similar instead of whinging you can’t sell cars and need a handup.

[Wally]

Well I disagree with the bloated salaries. The CEOs get the big bucks, because the directors need to have their fees seen as comparatively frugal. Of course directors don't really do anything of importance in corporations, they don't even direct the companies affairs. CEOs of juggernaut corporations don't do much either except to make unaccountable decisions on big picture strategies without any embarrasment at getting them wrong.

Someone mentioned engineers as being the important driver in car companies. Well the facts as any engineer knows, is that going to university and getting a piece of paper for learning a little about a lot doesn't really equate to knowing more than the fitter and turner in the business. When they finally do learn the business, any engineering is usually stuff the same fitter and turner could do if he was given the company procedures manuals and engineering rules of thumb and nomographs binder.

[flappist]

Occaisionally when walking around at a v8supercar race I have overheard groups of people wearing lots of HSV or FPV merchandise raving on about how the drivers can't drive, the cars are all set up wrongly, the track is crap and many other whinges.

The all have an opinion, usually from TV or their mates or and internet forum but interestingly none of them have actually driven a race car of any type, worked on anything newer than a e-series or VN or actually touched a race track let alone driven on one.

Those who can, do...... those who can't, just whinge about it.

For those who think they can do a great job as a CEO I offer this challange:

In your next post list your age, what you do for a living, for whom and for how long and what you earned before expenses and tax last year.

[irlewy86]

A CEO is one thing, must cause you guys outrage when you find out roughnecks sometimes have chatered helicopter flights just to grab a carton of beer.

[GT0132]

Gotta agree with XWGT there...If you're broke and want a taxpayer funded handout then you sell the corporate jet and fly to the meeting in economy class with the plebs, or otherwise travel by boat