The Greatest Fast Fords 1963 - 2009

[robjh80]

AutoExpress UK announces the 25 Greatest Fast Fords 1963 - 2009

1st Place goes to the Sierra RS Cosworth

Focus ST comes in at 14th
Fiesta ST185 at 18th

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...ast-fords.html

[hy_boi]

so, our falcoon prob wasn't mentioned i'm sure.

[RG]

Originally Posted by hy_boi

so, our falcoon prob wasn't mentioned i'm sure.

It's a brit poll with only brit release cars.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Russell

It's a brit poll with only brit release cars.

...... then they thow in a couple of GT 40's. If they arent number one over everything else on that list, or any other for that matter, just goes to show how useless 'lists' can be!



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[ehast13]

I'm surprised the xt gt isn't in there. There were a few sold over there and they spanked the smaller fords quite a bit in the occasional rally. The London to Sydney Marathon was a fine showing too. In production cup the xt gt wiped the floor in the two or three races it entered (til it was banned becasue there weren't enough sold in UK). pfft

Typical Brits

[RSgerry]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I'm surprised the xt gt isn't in there. There were a few sold over there and they spanked the smaller fords quite a bit in the occasional rally. The London to Sydney Marathon was a fine showing too. In production cup the xt gt wiped the floor in the two or three races it entered (til it was banned becasue there weren't enough sold in UK). pfft

Typical Brits

and how many British or European Fords would make a similar list compiled in Australia? as for foreign Fords being banned from racing because the local product just couldnt keep up, try the Sierra Cosworth. in Australia (changing the rules to suit the local boys is the same as banning...)

[ehast13]

I reckon one or two of these would make the list.

Escort Twin Cam - class winner, nearly atcc champ in 1972 due to points system

Cortina GT - 2x bathurst winner, 3 x 6 hour winner

Cortina GT500 (okay, I know it's Aussie developed) bathurst winner

Lotus Cortina - rally, circuit etc

RS2000 - so popular it even spawned an Aussie version

Capri V6 gt - class winner, rally winner,

GT40 - no explanation needed

Boss Mustang - see above

Mustang 64 - 67 and 66 thru 68- bob jane, pete geoghan, norm beechey, john harvey etc Five ATCC

Sierra RS500 - 2 x bathurst, 2 x atcc, 1987 bathurst debacle, 1992 moral victor etc etc etc

No one disputes that the v8 only formula effectively banned better group a machines. England didn't have a minimum number of cars sold rule in 1968/69. There were twin cam escorts and lotus cortinas racing before they had even sold one road goer. The falcon was banned because....

Yeah! "Lets invent cricket and then suck at it"

[RSgerry]

Originally Posted by ehast13

The falcon was banned because....

Yeah! "Lets invent cricket and then suck at it"

hahahaha. classic. they also invented soccer and, with the exception of one blip on the radar, suck at that as well.

good list though.

[ehast13]

Sorry to all the POMS. just havin' a dig at the soap-dodgers

[4Vman]

What an embarrassment of pommy 4cyl snails.... apart from a few "ring ins" is a "pasty white skin nerds" extravaganza....
I can think of a dozen Fords that would slaughter most of those in reverse.....

[ehast13]

I wonder what times a sierra rs500 would pull around bathurst if it were allowed the same freedoms as v8 supercars.

Big Aero, Big rubber, more weight perhaps, better cage design, sequential box, modern ecu. WOW!

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I wonder what times a sierra rs500 would pull around bathurst if it were allowed the same freedoms as v8 supercars.

Big Aero, Big rubber, more weight perhaps, better cage design, sequential box, modern ecu. WOW!

Do you mean, freedoms such as; max rpm in the vicinity of 7500RPM, no turbo, min weight in the vicinity of 1300-1400KG, four doors, same floorplan, suspension design, aero packages, and tyres as the competion.... What those freedoms?

V8s are a formula, and so was group A. I think the Serria's did alright for themselfs. Could they go quicker, sure! All alloy block V8 twin turbo Four wheel drive, active aero package. etc..etc... sure they could go faster. But then again so could a V8 suprecar.

[RSgerry]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What an embarrassment of pommy 4cyl snails.... apart from a few "ring ins" is a "pasty white skin nerds" extravaganza....
I can think of a dozen Fords that would slaughter most of those in reverse.....

in a straight line.... some roads have corners.

i agree, a lot of those cars listed are poor choices, but these were the cars that were offered for sale as they suit that market. small roads, no parking spaces and an infrastructure that simply wouldnt cope with cars as big as ours. the infrastructure is failing badly as it is. fuel prices and the cost of insurance (compulsory in the UK) has also had an influence on the sorts of cars they buy. there is no way 90% of the population could afford to insure something like an XR8, let alone put petrol in it. to top it off, would you like to splash out on a new GT and have to leave it parked on the side of the road, exposed to the weather and vandals and assoorted scum?

personally, i agree with the top nine, no questions. from there, it gets a bit dicey. no MK1 Capri is a shock, especially when you consider the RS3100 was such a beast. no MK2 Escort (okay, i am a little biased on this one...) but it was a world rally champion. i am pretty sure the sportka hasnt had a brilliant motorsport career and any successes would only come in one-make series. The MKV RS2000 was, by all accounts, cr@p. the Scorpio V6 is a nice car, but not worthy of the list. The MK2 Fiesta instead of the MK1. The Puma was derided as a hairdressers car. in fact, there are a lot of holes, but given the sort of magazine running the survey, maybe it shouldnt be a surprise that the newer cars are over represented.

however, it was compiled in Britain and is therefore going to be biased. the cars lsited are the ones that they are able to buy and people grew up admiring, in exactly the same way that we lust after GTHOs, Phase 4s and F6s. dismissing the list without considering all the factors involved in compiling such is just an easy opportunity at pommy bashing.

how many people here think an Aussie list would do a better job? ehast13 identified some great cars, but i suspect any list compiled by one of our own magazines would miss most of those cars and come up with Falcons, a GT40, a couple of Mustangs with a grudging nod to one of the MK1 Cortinas. do the same thing in the US and you will get the same result.

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by ehast13

No one disputes that the v8 only formula effectively banned better group a machines. England didn't have a minimum number of cars sold rule in 1968/69. There were twin cam escorts and lotus cortinas racing before they had even sold one road goer. The falcon was banned because....

Yeah! "Lets invent cricket and then suck at it"

Regarding your first paragrah. V8 formula didn't ban anything. Group A was the destruction of group A, not V8's! Complicated, inefective rules (can anyone say Cheat.... or Protest for that matter), Political crap and... wait for it, the Nissan GTR all contributed to the demise of Group A. Nothing to do with V8's

All the V8 formula did in this country was save tin top racing from obscurity.

As for your last comment..... Ferkin Funny!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ehast13

I wonder what times a sierra rs500 would pull around bathurst if it were allowed the same freedoms as v8 supercars.

Big Aero, Big rubber, more weight perhaps, better cage design, sequential box, modern ecu. WOW!

What freedoms are those? please tell me? V8SC is a calculated controlled formula, not a homologated series based on road cars...
Besides.. Group A was a Farce... between the Sierra and GTR skyline neither of them would have finished a single race without serious non production "concessions"....

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by RSgerry

The Puma was derided as a hairdressers car..

That's the Racing Puma the've got in there. 7 years ago I would've bought one instead of a Honda Integra Type R. The engine wasn't fantastic but the handling and braking were meant to be pretty special.

RS Cosworth Escort - A few of them turn up on Jap import sites. There was one listed a few months ago for $20-25k. I'd go for the mark 2 (small turbo) version with a whale tail.

Cosworth Sierra - I was looking at the figures for the stock ones and looking back from 2008 they don't seem so remarkable. I can remember back in their day I (and a lot of other people) thought of them as absolute weapons. I's still like an RS500.

[ehast13]

Whoa, didn't mean to offend anybody.

I just reckon the sierra was a weapon in its time. It already had a 7500rpm limit, nine inch diff and holinger box. Imagine if we allowed a v8 supercar spec aero kit on it. Throw in todays ecu tuning, improved turbo reliability, improved roll cage design (torsional stiffness), 2008 spec brakes,

You could drop the IRS and use the solid axle like the V8supercar and give them the project blueprint style front suspension.

Make them keep the skinnier rubber (latest compound tho), the twitchy short wheelbase etc and see what it could do.

I agree there were many concessions made to many group A cars but WOW, what a spectacle until it all went tits up with tainted fuel, adjustable boost, all wheel drive etc.


True, the V8's are only very very remotely based on road cars. A 5.4 boss built to group a spec (including such 'concessions' as holinger boxes, nine inch diff etc) would probably struggle to keep up with a 92 spec GRoup A sierra. An F6 built with the same concessions would be an awesome group a car.

I really didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Fact is though, a twenty year old RS500 is still an exciting car. Ever driven one? I have. WOW. I;ve driven a low k stocko one and a heavily modded one. They were both exciting.

I've never owned one. I have owned xr6's, xr8, a supercharged xr6, a 390 galaxie, a 400ci galaxie, many 302 and 351 fords. Fact is, apart from early 70's HO's, the only other factory spec ford I have driven that excited me as much was an RS500.

If group A was around today, which car would win? What would be the ultimate machine?

WRX, F6, Lancer, Commodore, GTR (probably).

agh, I'm getting off topic. In 92, there wasn't falcon or commodore product that was a regular threat to the aging RS500. The commies did well over distance but.....

Once again, didn't mean to offend but the RS500 was the car to have in the late eighties in sprint races. If it could do such fast times twenty years ago, what could one do know if it were built with today's know-how?

Ditto group c falcons/commodores

RS500 is worthy of any list

[dom_105]

Nobody is doubting that the RS500 was a weapon in it's time, but it can't outgun a V8 Supercar.

Dick Johnson put his Sierra on pole at Bathurst in '92 with a 12.8, and his fastest lap in the actual race was a 16.7. Next fastest Sierra was Park/Parsons PJ's with 17.6 and 20.1 respectively. This year, James Courtney was the fastest on raceday with a 09.8 and Winterbottom/Richards did a 07.1 in qualifying.

That's almost 17 seconds a lap in race trim which would need to be overcome, and given free rein it could be done, but it wouldn't be achievable under the basic principles of either Group A or V8 Supercars.

[OZQUAD44]

I wasn't getting my nose out of joint either, I just thought your assesment of the v8 categoy was off the mark. I for one would dispute that Group A cars are better than V8 Supercars, they're not even in the same league.

Certainly group A have far more variety, which I miss I might add, but I don't know by what measure you are using to assess that group A cars are/were better machines. The previous post by Dom clearly demonstrates the vast difference in times that these cars generated. 17 seconds over 6.1 klm is substantial.

Thats not to suggest that the Sierra wasn't a weapon, it certianly was, and it should be included in any top ford list. The RS500 in road trim with its 165kw, borgwarner 5 speed, weight 1240kg. 1/4 mile times in the mid to high 14's, 0-100klm in the low sixes are still good figures even by todays standards. But there have been many turbos on the market since the RS500 that could destroy those times. Even the "slow" 1850kg GT Falcons circa 2003 - 2008.

In race trim the last Sierra's were lethal, pushing around 370kw, with Getrag boxes and a race weight of around 1035KG. But these cars were built with group "A" rules in mind (along with the GTR). Its not really fair to say they flogged the V8s (which they did) without considering the impact that group A rules had on V8s of the period.

Group A rules ensured that the V8s had a high weight imposed on them due to the engine capacity, and the engines were never allowed to reach their full potential. The engines were essentially the same platform (IE 5 litre NA pushrod V8's) as todays V8 super car engines. Yet they never got anywhere near the HP that they get out of them now days? Not even close! Put it this way, Dicks 5 litre 1886 Group "A" Mustang struggled to make anyware near 300kw. That was a small block five litre Ford V8, basically the same block as V8 supercar of today which makes closer to 600kw. Can going from a Carby to fule injection make you pick up 300Kw? I suspect Group A rules had a bit to do with the fact that the V8s weren't the top performers of the day.

Dick stepped out of his roughly 380KW Group C falcon at the time into a Group A Mustang Pumping out roughly 280KW. If you put those figures into context, its no wonder he switched to a Sierra. His last Serrias, which were on a knife edge as far a reliability is concerned (wind up the boost any further and POP), were closer in Kw to his group C V8 than his his group A V8 thats for sure.

At the end of the day, The Serrias were and still are a great car. But it was rules and category that defined them. Which is one of the reasons that they had a marked advantage over V8s of the time. Even with wings, tyres, and chassis development I doubt it could match a V8 supercar.

[OZQUAD44]

Edit to my last post fellas

600bhp (450Kw) in current V8 supercars not 600kw. I got my Kw confused with Bhp, stupid brain! My mistake, but I think you get the point though. The current V8s make a lot more power than the Group A V8s ever did.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by OZQUAD44

I wasn't getting my nose out of joint either, I just thought your assesment of the v8 categoy was off the mark. I for one would dispute that Group A cars are better than V8 Supercars, they're not even in the same league.

Certainly group A have far more variety, which I miss I might add, but I don't know by what measure you are using to assess that group A cars are/were better machines. The previous post by Dom clearly demonstrates the vast difference in times that these cars generated. 17 seconds over 6.1 klm is substantial.

Thats not to suggest that the Sierra wasn't a weapon, it certianly was, and it should be included in any top ford list. The RS500 in road trim with its 165kw, borgwarner 5 speed, weight 1240kg. 1/4 mile times in the mid to high 14's, 0-100klm in the low sixes are still good figures even by todays standards. But there have been many turbos on the market since the RS500 that could destroy those times. Even the "slow" 1850kg GT Falcons circa 2003 - 2008.

In race trim the last Sierra's were lethal, pushing around 370kw, with Getrag boxes and a race weight of around 1035KG. But these cars were built with group "A" rules in mind (along with the GTR). Its not really fair to say they flogged the V8s (which they did) without considering the impact that group A rules had on V8s of the period.

Group A rules ensured that the V8s had a high weight imposed on them due to the engine capacity, and the engines were never allowed to reach their full potential. The engines were essentially the same platform (IE 5 litre NA pushrod V8's) as todays V8 super car engines. Yet they never got anywhere near the HP that they get out of them now days? Not even close! Put it this way, Dicks 5 litre 1886 Group "A" Mustang struggled to make anyware near 300kw. That was a small block five litre Ford V8, basically the same block as V8 supercar of today which makes closer to 600kw. Can going from a Carby to fule injection make you pick up 300Kw? I suspect Group A rules had a bit to do with the fact that the V8s weren't the top performers of the day.

Dick stepped out of his roughly 380KW Group C falcon at the time into a Group A Mustang Pumping out roughly 280KW. If you put those figures into context, its no wonder he switched to a Sierra. His last Serrias, which were on a knife edge as far a reliability is concerned (wind up the boost any further and POP), were closer in Kw to his group C V8 than his his group A V8 thats for sure.

At the end of the day, The Serrias were and still are a great car. But it was rules and category that defined them. Which is one of the reasons that they had a marked advantage over V8s of the time. Even with wings, tyres, and chassis development I doubt it could match a V8 supercar.

I remember DJ complaining that he couldn't even use a roller cam in the Mustang, it had to be a standard type, and i'm pretty sure the inlet manifold had to be standard too, so they were handicapped quite significantly.

The current V8 Supercars are starting to push past 620 hp now due to continuous development.

[FPV+fteT3]

Do the poms even have a V8 ford? seems not those poor buggers don't know what their missing no stangs no falc's probably only 6gt 40's in all the country go to feel sorry for them

[RAREV8]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

Do the poms even have a V8 ford? seems not those poor buggers don't know what their missing no stangs no falc's probably only 6gt 40's in all the country go to feel sorry for them

Nope, last production V8 Ford was the Pilot which finished back in the early '50's I believe.
GT40's were derived from the Lola's which the Seppo's never seem to remember, hence trying to claim the GT40 all to themselves!

Petrol crisis etc meant that there was no real market for "cheap" large cars such as Ford, Vauxhall etc. Engines rarely exceeded 3 litres in these manfacturers.
There are and always have been plenty of luxury large vehicles in the UK such as Jag, Daimler, Range Rover,Jensen,Bristol, TVR, Bentley, RR etc for those who could afford not to care about the price of petrol.

[ehast13]

Not being cheeky but......

Maths lesson time

2:16.8 vs 2:09.8

7 seconds difference. Not seventeen.

Seven seconds in 16 years. Race Pace

V8 supercars are a completely different formula. They were originally called group 3A in 1992 when vn group a cars were converted to vp's and raced against EB's built to similar spec. The EB got similar aerodynamics. They were a lot closer to group a than todays cars. The rules were loosley based on the mechanicals of a racegoing group a VN commie and added an aero kit, Nine inch and a few other goodies.

The fastest 1992 group 3a car (setons falcon) was slower than dicks sierra. Funnily enough, Larry's VL was the fastest v8 qualifier.

Oddly enough, both the V8 commies/falcons and the sierra had some similar features by 1992.

1. 7500rpm limit
2. nine inch diff (a version of)
3. holinger six speed.

It was claimed that in qualifying, some sierras ran 30psi of boost.

group a was great in theory. All cars had to be production based. No stuffing around with hi-flow manifolds, valves made from unobtanium and chrome-moly glovebox lids.

Some manufacturers produced cars to exploit the rules (RS500, Nissan GTR, VL walkinshaw, HDT, Mercedes cosworth 190, bmw m3, volvo 240t). Some manufacturers weren't interested (Ford AUS, Ford US, etc).

Dicks mustang had very little in common with todays cars with the exception of bore/stroke.

Yes they both start off based on a 302 windsor but the mustang had to be based on the production car. Ford US wouldn't even homologate fuel injection.

While HDT built 4.9 holden v8s with rolla rockers, trick inlet, double row timing chain, big valves, a couple of aero aids, an trick exhaust manifold etc.

Volvo did it too.

Bmw showed har far you could take the concept

The sierra added a turbo to the concept

Nissan added AWD

I just reckon that in 16 years, technology could make sierras six or seven seconds faster around bathurst.

Tyre technology
turbo technology
suspension tech
intercooler tech
engine tech
ECU tech
computer balancing
CAD, CAE
Roll cage improvements
torsional stiffness
exhaust tech
weight distribution
throw in an aero kit not designed in 1986 and not constrained by having to be road legal and......

Surely they could find six seconds in qualifying speed (2:12.8 in 1992 =>2:06.8 in 2008) in 16 years. That's less than 4 tenths per year!

They made v8's seven seconds faster (fastest V8 in 1992 2:14.? , fastest v8 2008 2:07.1) in the same period

FOR THE RECORD
I never ever said that an RS500 would be quicker than a v8supercar.
Does anyone here remember how much faster they were in 1987 at bathurst. Even the legal ones were awesome.

They got slowed down with rev limits and this and that but they were still a weapon in 1992 up against the 'new' group 3A cars like Seton's EB.

They were production based.

with concessions true,

Imagine an F6 built to the same formula

4.0 Litre x 1.7 (FIA turbo multiplication rule) = 6.8 litres
Min weight in over 5.0 litre class was 1400kg (not much more than today's v8 supercars).

how much power could you get out of a f6 built for group a racing? Throw in v8 supercar aero kit and ....

yeah well, u get the point

I never said the sierra would be faster (it might be over a single lap, now that I've considered it), I just gushed over a car that made a huge impact upon racing two decades ago and dreamt of what developments could be made since 1987-1992

[dom_105]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Not being cheeky but......

Maths lesson time

2:16.8 vs 2:09.8

7 seconds difference. Not seventeen.

Seven seconds in 16 years. Race Pace

I don't know where the hell I got 17 seconds from.

[MADRod]

Originally Posted by OZQUAD44

His last Serrias, which were on a knife edge as far a reliability is concerned (wind up the boost any further and POP), were closer in Kw to his group C V8 than his his group A V8 thats for sure.

At the end of the day, The Serrias were and still are a great car. But it was rules and category that defined them. Which is one of the reasons that they had a marked advantage over V8s of the time. Even with wings, tyres, and chassis development I doubt it could match a V8 supercar.

You guys are bit out of date the development of the Cosworth YB (Fitted to Sierra & Escort Cossies) still continues, poor old Dick had a max of 580bhp for qualifying ( he claimed 600bhp) & 540 in race trim. My own YB made 793bhp/644ft-lb (42psi-GT40) on its last dyno run & a new engine due on the Dyno within 2 weeks will see the far side of 850bhp (42PSI-gt42) all from 2.15 litres.
With Direct Port Nitrous (200 shot) we will see 1000bhp+. This is in a fully trimmed road car used on the streets. 200mph within a mile, so dont dismiss these pommy machines lads because you have nothing like it on that great big island of yours :

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by MADRod

You guys are bit out of date the development of the Cosworth YB (Fitted to Sierra & Escort Cossies) still continues, poor old Dick had a max of 580bhp for qualifying ( he claimed 600bhp) & 540 in race trim. My own YB made 793bhp/644ft-lb (42psi-GT40) on its last dyno run & a new engine due on the Dyno within 2 weeks will see the far side of 850bhp (42PSI-gt42) all from 2.15 litres.
With Direct Port Nitrous (200 shot) we will see 1000bhp+. This is in a fully trimmed road car used on the streets. 200mph within a mile, so dont dismiss these pommy machines lads because you have nothing like it on that great big island of yours :

Yep, expecting that one, I was wondering how much the Cossie could pump out given an open slather. I have no doubts the turbo can make big HP and when you start talking no limits competition anything is possible. (ever see the video if the 26cc nitrous scooter take down a GTO over a quarter mile, but I digress).

What I was trying to address, with my somewhat hazy figures and all, was the fact that the rules of the class define the race car. As good as a car may be, if it is outclassed as defined in the rules, then it is outclassed.

So lets not get too carried away with mines bigger than yours. I'm pretty sure Direct Port Nitrous injection wasn't allowed in group A rules or V8 supercar rules for that matter. Go and tell the boys in the F6/XR6 Turbo section that your 2.15 litre Turbo can flog their 4 litre Turbos if you want to have a ****ing comp.

My post was just in reply to a couple of comments, NO offence intended Ehast, that seemed to imply that V8s killed off group A and that if only the Sierras were given the same freedoms they could match or better a V8.

For the record;

Group A was the demise of Group A.

V8 Supercars are a different class of race car compared to Group A cars. I still think it would take more than just "Big Aero, Big rubber, more weight perhaps, better cage design, sequential box, modern ecu." for a Sierra to become competitive with the current V8 supercars. Not because the Sierra is a bad thing, but more because the class has moved a fair distance away from the original touring car V8 formula from where it came from.

[ehast13]

Yeah. True. I'd still love to see a modern day interpretation of a sierra RS500.

I'd prefer to see Moffats project Phoenix xb built using todays tech. Modern roll cage, better stiffness, big brakes, bullet proof engine, carbon fibre trim, holinger box, better tailshaft/universal joints etc...

Ever get the feeling I'm livin' in the past?

[Jayden]

my list is biased towards cars that look good. The GT40, X-series hardtops, and Boss302 mustangs rule supreme. And id take a fat XD or any muscle car over a 4cl ford, but thats just me.

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Yeah. True. I'd still love to see a modern day interpretation of a sierra RS500.

I'd prefer to see Moffats project Phoenix xb built using todays tech. Modern roll cage, better stiffness, big brakes, bullet proof engine, carbon fibre trim, holinger box, better tailshaft/universal joints etc...

Ever get the feeling I'm livin' in the past?

Aggreed!