E85 Fallen on its ***?

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Just laughed iced coffee out my nose, now yummy mummies in play caf looking at me weird. Well, more weird than usual.

Is e-fuel a no-go for mowers? Mine is running crap since returned by bro in law

Sorry couldn't help myself, I've got young kids that love the show.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by FG50T

There is a severe lack of it in the north west/west. Closest servo for me is 15km away in a direction I never go in. If it was at every service station or at least BP's I'd be all over it. Mind you I've had two mates with flex fuel VE SS's and have no idea what it is.

So Holden have spent all that development money on the fuel system being modified to be able to use this fuel but bugger all servos have the fuel and your mates don't even know what it is lol!

[mik]

Originally Posted by trublu

Over 30 years to get LPG to most servo's but oddly enough travel around Australia & you will be surprised as to many areas where LPG is not available & I'm not talking just remote areas.

Cheers.

still plenty of power to be made from lpg, i can attest to an lpg 400+ rwk 3.0 l supra running through a 9 inch diff, i still have the stained undies to prove it !
Edit, no shortage of lpg this north side of Melbourne.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by EF_6

So Holden have spent all that development money on the fuel system being modified to be able to use this fuel but bugger all servos have the fuel and your mates don't even know what it is lol!

I can't see how you can be so negative about Holden's direction . You don't have to use E85 but you at least have to the option to do so.

They have provided the ability to use a renewable resource which has many benefits and as has been stated many times they export to markets where it is readily available.

The world is bigger than Australia and just because it is not a big thing here at present does not mean it won't be in the future.

I put that down largely to ignorance rather than preference for normal petrol.

Petrol is only going in one direction and that is only up. It is a finite resource and as a side effect your beloved LPG is only going the same way too.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by EF_6

So Holden have spent all that development money on the fuel system being modified to be able to use this fuel but bugger all servos have the fuel and your mates don't even know what it is lol!

you would be great fun at a boring bbq

srs

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by MrEL

So are you basically saying I would be better off running E10 in my tuned Windsor then the diet of V power it gets now?
Im interested.

Im saying E10 while not as good as BP98 is better or certainley on par with 95/96 octanes that are offered by the various outlets... having said that I notice that Caltex stopped selling 96 at most places in WA and Shell and BP have done likewise with their 95's

10% ethanol will give you around 3-4% leaner AFR so that has to be accounted for, basically if you were N/A and tuned for 12.8 or leaner I would get the tune redone regardless of the extra knock resistance as above 13:1 on pushrod engines you are asking ping.

Daniel

[ratter]

unless the E10 was actually united 100

[CAT600]

Yep.. I did make the distinction to P100 Mick because a lot of people dont want to spend the extra 16-18cpl for 4-5 octane points... I believe that gap is less in the east but either way its a definite hike up.

Daniel

[ratter]

I only pointed that out because E10 confuses many people, they do not realise there is various octane ratings with it depending on what it is mixed with

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

you would be great fun at a boring bbq

srs

Well it just hasn't been that popular as far as I can tell.....Holden are the only manufacturer to bother with it........And the government probably like it that way so they make more taxes from petrol and diesel???

[monte.b]

Gee you blokes need to wake up ,we need to support our cane farmers ,they bring a lot of money into this town ,must say id rather see them make rum out of it than ethanol ,not only that but it cant really be very efficient as the v8 supercars make so many stops in the bathurst race for fuel it becomes boring ,if they ran them on premium they would do the whole race on half the stops ,so where is the advantage of using e85 id like to know ,besides helping our poor old cane cockies out and stealing all that lovely cane we could make into rum

[SSD-85]

Ethanols not all that bad...

Heres Why

[FPV GTHO]

At some point Saab also had flex fuel models that would accept E85.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Well it just hasn't been that popular as far as I can tell.....Holden are the only manufacturer to bother with it........And the government probably like it that way so they make more taxes from petrol and diesel???

cbf..

[ratter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r_manufacturer
A quick google search will bring up a list of over 100 cars and possibly 20 manufacturers that have flex fuel cars, the list does not have aussie cars on it

[mik]

Probably the only reason gm bothered making the commy flex was because they had a few over seas, not enough interest here otherwise.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Well it just hasn't been that popular as far as I can tell.....Holden are the only manufacturer to bother with it........And the government probably like it that way so they make more taxes from petrol and diesel???

You are missing the big picture, Holden development of engines designed to run on E85 is not wasted, GM has one more technology up there sleeve to use in future vehicles, as mentioned fossil fuel is finite where renewable fuel is for the future.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by EF_6

So Holden have spent all that development money on the fuel system being modified to be able to use this fuel but bugger all servos have the fuel and your mates don't even know what it is lol!

I don't think it cost them a hell of a lot to bring to market, the Gen 3 and 4 engines already had the flex fuel work done in the states by GM.

[2011G6E]

Lot of hungry people facing hugely increased food costs around the world because of this ridiculous ethanol craze...

[1TUFFUTE]

To my uneducated eye...it seems another slightly bad(if not early) update, to make their engines e85 compatible when people either don't know about it yet, or can't get it!
I had to research what it was about...I had no idea. None of my friends I've asked have any idea about it!
Perhaps Holden would have benefited from spending the money on making an up to date LPG set up (like fords magic setup) and marketing that?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Perhaps Holden would have benefited from spending the money on making an up to date LPG set up (like fords magic setup) and marketing that?

Like others have said, it would have cost Holden next to nothing to make their existing engine range E85 compatible. Designing a modern LPI system like Ford's for the 3.0, 3.6 and 6.0 would have not only cost a ridiculous amount of money, but created even more separate models with range issues (due to the sparse availability of LPG once you leave the city) that Australians clearly aren't interested in (look at Ford's ecoLPI sales numbers). Holden themselves said that they did the E85 compatibility to future-proof the car somewhat against dramatic and unexpected fuel price spikes. They acknowledged that it's not about saving a buck today, but down the track who knows- what if unleaded prices started spiking to over 2 bucks a litre? In the UK they're paying the equivalent of $2.40 AUD per litre, what if our fuel prices got that bad? Holden have considered it and good on them, they've added an alternative fuel capability to every petrol Commodore without charging any extra for it, I don't see how people can have a gripe with that.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Lot of hungry people facing hugely increased food costs around the world because of this ridiculous ethanol craze...

what becomes of all the fishes they squeeze the fish oil out of

feed the hungry people squashed fishes

[phanoongy]

my 07 Territory has a yellow sticker on the inside of the fuel lid with "Ethanol(E10) Fuel Suitable" so I guess Holden was not the only ones to set there fuel systems to be able to take Ethanol or am I missing something?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by phanoongy

my 07 Territory has a yellow sticker on the inside of the fuel lid with "Ethanol(E10) Fuel Suitable" so I guess Holden was not the only ones to set there fuel systems to be able to take Ethanol or am I missing something?

E10 is fine to use in most vehicles because it is only 10% Ethanol so it doesn't corrode the fuel lines etc....E85 on the other hand is very corrosive so it can only be used in vehicles designed for it.

[CAT600]

It's not corrosive mate, that's an Internet myth

It's incompatible with some rubbers (nitrile) and cellulose paper (filters) but do some research and you'll find it's less aggressive on engine internals (like valve seats and guides) compared to your beloved LPG

You know... I don't particularly like LPG either

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by CAT600

It's not corrosive mate, that's an Internet myth

It's incompatible with some rubbers (nitrile) and cellulose paper (filters) but do some research and you'll find it's less aggressive on engine internals (like valve seats and guides) compared to your beloved LPG

You know... I don't particularly like LPG either

No worries thanks for the 'real' facts......Really ALL the manufacturers should be changing fuel systems to suit this fuel then if its not too much extra cost.

It could be used as a sales pitch like Holden have done then.

Yes I know LPG is hard on valves because it is a dry fuel unlike petrol but it does keep all the bearings and insides extreemely clean with no carbon at all and at least the fuel is still 50-60% the cost of petrol and its coming back down soon too.

Plus ther are some major developments with a certain 'new style' LPG system happening this very year.....Just has a bit more development and testing to be done.......I garuntee that!

[dimka100]

Actually I have tried the United E100 in my stock 6T and found it to perform worse than the usual 98 I get from BP/Shell/Mobil. Maybe it was the dodgy United taxi petrol station in my area … but then there are very few stations in Sydney offering it.

Originally Posted by ratter

unless the E10 was actually united 100

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Like others have said, it would have cost Holden next to nothing to make their existing engine range E85 compatible. Designing a modern LPI system like Ford's for the 3.0, 3.6 and 6.0 would have not only cost a ridiculous amount of money, but created even more separate models with range issues (due to the sparse availability of LPG once you leave the city) that Australians clearly aren't interested in (look at Ford's ecoLPI sales numbers). Holden themselves said that they did the E85 compatibility to future-proof the car somewhat against dramatic and unexpected fuel price spikes. They acknowledged that it's not about saving a buck today, but down the track who knows- what if unleaded prices started spiking to over 2 bucks a litre? In the UK they're paying the equivalent of $2.40 AUD per litre, what if our fuel prices got that bad? Holden have considered it and good on them, they've added an alternative fuel capability to every petrol Commodore without charging any extra for it, I don't see how people can have a gripe with that.

Next to nothing? It actually cost Holden a lot of money cause every single engine had to be tuned for it and emissions re-certified, not to mention all the R&D that would have taken, as the engines are not the same as the US spec versions are. I would not be surprised if it was in the tens of millions to do it, i'll look it up to try to see what the figures were.

Holden played the gamble that Costaka, which was in partnership with GM, were going to get into production their process to turn household rubbish into ethanol, there was even a plan to build a plant in Melbourne, and Holden was in on it but it crashed and burned and didn't happen. I'll bet if they had their time over they never would have wasted money on E85 compatibility.

LPi makes up around 20% of Falcon sales so it hasn't done that badly, losing the wagon which were 95% LPG sales cost it sales. Ecoboost on the other hand has been a total flop, FPV sell more V8's than Ford do Ecoboosts.

[RANGEREST]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Next to nothing? It actually cost Holden a lot of money cause every single engine had to be tuned for it and emissions re-certified, not to mention all the R&D that would have taken, as the engines are not the same as the US spec versions are. I would not be surprised if it was in the tens of millions to do it, i'll look it up to try to see what the figures were..

Look it up here, roughly $150 per car, not quite 10s of millions but close.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-e...uel-works2.htm
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
Changes to the engines to ensure it can run on E85 include hardened valves and valve seats, a new fuel pump, the addition of a flex fuel sensor and revised engine calibration.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

To my uneducated eye...it seems another slightly bad(if not early) update, to make their engines e85 compatible when people either don't know about it yet, or can't get it!

My guess, Holden (and V8SC) were thinking that supporting the greenest fuel available would boost their green credentials (one of the sticking points for the large car segment).

Perhaps Holden would have benefited from spending the money on making an up to date LPG set up (like fords magic setup) and marketing that?

Idiocy. Only fleets buy LPG-fitted cars new, the private market (where the profit is) doesn't want to know. No point trying to convince the market it may be wrong. Even Ford don't market theirs. What does that tell you?