Australia's most popular type of petrol - unleaded - could be phased out within two years

[Junkyard-Dog]

I would be amazed if this move was truly aimed at improving the environment. I think it is more likely that the mainstream media has been instructed to promote the secondary environmental benefits as loudly as possible to disguise the reality that this is primarily intended to earn the faceless shareholders of oil.co more substantial profits.

We are car enthusiasts and generally spend more on our cars than most other people, many of us already use premium fuels but there are some people out there that simply won't be able to afford the slight increase to purchase 95 RON. Removing the cheapest fuel type is sure to impact those who are living on a budget - as with most things, the impact may not be obvious in the short-run but will become obvious long-term.

I am skeptical that this is really in the best interest of the general public.

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I would be amazed if this move was truly aimed at improving the environment. I think it is more likely that the mainstream media has been instructed to promote the secondary environmental benefits as loudly as possible to disguise the reality that this is primarily intended to earn the faceless shareholders of oil.co more substantial profits.

We are car enthusiasts and generally spend more on our cars than most other people, many of us already use premium fuels but there are some people out there that simply won't be able to afford the slight increase to purchase 95 RON. Removing the cheapest fuel type is sure to impact those who are living on a budget - as with most things, the impact may not be obvious in the short-run but will become obvious long-term.

I am skeptical that this is really in the best interest of the general public.

Yep,standard big company and often gov tactics. Throw something out there,let the punters like us toss the toys out of the cot,have our say,get it off our shoulders and get used to the idea being there. Then they will get a few self interest groups on board to push their own barrow down the same path and build some momentum to the cause. Next thing it's a good thing and we put a stick between our teeth and take it. Regardless of the actual facts over our fuels there is obviously some sort of agenda behind this...and I'm not holding my breath it's going to be cheaper for us end users!!

[Express]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Ffs this isn't Europe! Why do they insist on taking in every damn euro standard when this place is nothing like Europe.

Euro this euro that, why must we sit behind Europes bum with a straw all the time.

91 is popular because it's cheap (compared to everything else) and most things run perfectly fine on it. So leave it the hell alone !

Whether you believe climate change is a manmade process or a natural occurrence the evidence does appear to substantiate something nasty is happening and maybe it would be a good idea to try and address the situation before it’s beyond changing if that isn’t already the case.

No we are not Europe but given Australia’s location on the planet, its topography and the fact we are near a dirty great big Antarctic ozone hole we are more likely to suffer its affects long before Europe does which means if we wish to maintain our lifestyle we have a very strong vested interest in slowing the process down.

[Mad_Pom]

Originally Posted by simon varley

must be very vehicle dependent, or drive style then - I usually see an improvement when I go to E10

Simon you physically need more Ethanol fuel when running closed loop. The stoichiometry point for Ethanol is much lower, as the fuel is not as energy dense and therefore you need to flow more fuel.

Typical 91 RON stoich Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) is around 14.4, but for Ethanol this will be lower (around 14), so you will need to flow more fuel to maintain closed loop control.

However the overall efficiency equation is not that simple and depends on engine & control system. As Ethanol has a higher octane rating you should be able to run more spark advance and depending on the compression ratio of the engine it may be able to take more advantage of this, but only if you have an aggressive individual cylinder knock control system to take advantage of this.

Bottom line is that different vehicles will respond to Ethanol blends in different ways.

[Romulus]

Australia will not have auto manufacturing after Oct this year, most vehicles are imported, and not designed to run on our crap 91 octane fuel. 95 is usually the minimum octane required, most engines run best on 95-98 octane fuel.

This is more than a discussion paper, the government is figuring out a way to spin the increase in overall fuel price to the consumer under the guise of a cleaner environment.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Romulus

Australia will not have auto manufacturing after Oct this year, most vehicles are imported, and not designed to run on our crap 91 octane fuel. 95 is usually the minimum octane required, most engines run best on 95-98 octane fuel.

This is more than a discussion paper, the government is figuring out a way to spin the increase in overall fuel price to the consumer under the guise of a cleaner environment.

Barnaby J is going into bat for our sugercane farmers, fair enough its his job lol!

As much as ide like to support our sugarcane farmers, e10 for owners of older cars is not a worthwhile proposition. If they reformulate e10 to match or surpass 91 ron at the same price point they would be on a winner imo!

cheers, Maka

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by simon varley

must be very vehicle dependent, or drive style then - I usually see an improvement when I go to E10

Found the E10 would give you that bit extra octane for the power from the ethanol which you would expect but as for economy, well forget that for improvement.
I found my old FG XR ran ok on it but would chew through it.

[mike_nofx]

Luckily I don't even own an unleaded vehicle, just LPG and Diesel for me.

I'm sad to see that the fuel of the gods - LPG - is being slowly phased out and no one cares! Wheres the news article on LPG huh?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Luckily I don't even own an unleaded vehicle, just LPG and Diesel for me.

I'm sad to see that the fuel of the gods - LPG - is being slowly phased out and no one cares! Wheres the news article on LPG huh?

I'm involved with 6 Viva Energy sites in Perth which have removed LPG. Several of these sites had their last LPG refill 4 months prior to the decommissioning, showing the low demand for the product.

[Tom Tucker]

Nothing wrong with ethanol. It supports local industry, is renewable, combustion is cleaner, and it's cheap! Whilst it's slightly less energy dense, hygroscopic and not compatible with pre 1980s fuel systems, the drawbacks are minor and only affect a very small percentage of motorists. The average naturally aspirated car is perfectly fine running it, and I'd be surprised if anyone could produce empirical data to show significantly poorer economy with a 10% blend.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Tom Tucker

Nothing wrong with ethanol. It supports local industry, is renewable, combustion is cleaner, and it's cheap! Whilst it's slightly less energy dense, hygroscopic and not compatible with pre 1980s fuel systems, the drawbacks are minor and only affect a very small percentage of motorists. The average naturally aspirated car is perfectly fine running it, and I'd be surprised if anyone could produce empirical data to show significantly poorer economy with a 10% blend.

The hard part would be ensuring it's only 10%, any more and it could be detrimental to the health of my (non Ford) engine

[snap0964]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Luckily I don't even own an unleaded vehicle, just LPG and Diesel for me. I'm sad to see that the fuel of the gods - LPG - is being slowly phased out and no one cares! Wheres the news article on LPG huh?

Originally Posted by Romulus

I'm involved with 6 Viva Energy sites in Perth which have removed LPG. Several of these sites had their last LPG refill 4 months prior to the decommissioning, showing the low demand for the product.

Since the rebate has finished, the **** has really fallen out of the conversion market. There is a separate thread on here about the Coles servos removing LPG from sale. Damn shame, clean fuel, we have lots of it, and with decent tuning and fuel delivery, it can match petrol power.

[Supafordies]

I hope 95/ 98 isn't wiped out in the coming yrs..

[Sprintey]

Good article Mr Express.

Reading between the lines, I wonder if this is the "that's it" point for our ageing, small refineries. Something along the lines of:

"Well, sorry it will cost too much. We're shutting it. You can get imported fuel, and if the ship is late, you'll be glad you bought that donkey we advised you to."

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Romulus

I'm involved with 6 Viva Energy sites in Perth which have removed LPG. Several of these sites had their last LPG refill 4 months prior to the decommissioning, showing the low demand for the product.

I was down Esperance way recently and LPG was $1:30.
No wonder it's disappearing.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Romulus

I'm involved with 6 Viva Energy sites in Perth which have removed LPG. Several of these sites had their last LPG refill 4 months prior to the decommissioning, showing the low demand for the product.

LPG to me was false economy on savings, cost of purchase & installation, breakdown costs (maintenance) then you have to do the mileage to pay for it before you start to see the savings, sorry to say the lifespan is not that great before you have to replace the convertor & retest the tank, all added costs.
I had two cars on LPG in the 90's, that was enough for me, I will never touch LPG again for vehicles.

[LG17]

So what happens to all small engines - mowers, whipper snippers, rotary hoes, water pumps... ??

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Tom Tucker

Nothing wrong with ethanol. It supports local industry, is renewable, combustion is cleaner, and it's cheap! Whilst it's slightly less energy dense, hygroscopic and not compatible with pre 1980s fuel systems, the drawbacks are minor and only affect a very small percentage of motorists. The average naturally aspirated car is perfectly fine running it, and I'd be surprised if anyone could produce empirical data to show significantly poorer economy with a 10% blend.

a few years back i read an article (cant remember where) but they reckoned it took 1.5l of fossil fuel to make a litre of ethanol ...spose that would be 1.7l of ethanol to make a litre? ....probably all corporate propoganda who would know

i think ethanol as a by-product from dairy companies etc is probably viable ,dunno about growing crops specifically tho

[Romulus]

Speaking to someone who works at BP Refinery Kwinana, the refinery is due for shutdown for 6 months for maintenance and upgrade. It will be the last time an upgrade will be done to the plant, it's not cost effective to refine fuel in Australia compared to importing it direct from Singapore.

I think the move away from 91 octane fuel is to get the market ready for a total import of all fuels into Australia, with no local refineries in the next 5-10 years.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Very interesting Romulus. Thanks for the insight.

[Tom Tucker]

Originally Posted by Romulus

Speaking to someone who works at BP Refinery Kwinana, the refinery is due for shutdown for 6 months for maintenance and upgrade. It will be the last time an upgrade will be done to the plant, it's not cost effective to refine fuel in Australia compared to importing it direct from Singapore.

I think the move away from 91 octane fuel is to get the market ready for a total import of all fuels into Australia, with no local refineries in the next 5-10 years.

I'd say you're right, but local refining is an industry that needs to be subsidised by the govt to ensure energy security. That to me is a basic govt function. Instead they sign up to the International Energy Agency to supposedly take care of it. Clearly the Australian domestic market is going to be a high priority for the IEA during a period of global shortage or disaster... The short sighted nature of strategic decision making astounds me.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by LG17

So what happens to all small engines - mowers, whipper snippers, rotary hoes, water pumps... ??

They will run ok on the high octane rating fuel!

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Tom Tucker

I'd say you're right, but local refining is an industry that needs to be subsidised by the govt to ensure energy security. That to me is a basic govt function. Instead they sign up to the International Energy Agency to supposedly take care of it. Clearly the Australian domestic market is going to be a high priority for the IEA during a period of global shortage or disaster... The short sighted nature of strategic decision making astounds me.

I agree completely, however the public is sold this "Free Trade Agreement we're entering into with different countries is good for the economy" without and evidence to support the claim of government, notwithstanding, raising the issue of fuel security you mention.

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by LG17

So what happens to all small engines - mowers, whipper snippers, rotary hoes, water pumps... ??

The women with RX8's won't know any different, they'll continue using 98.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Romulus

Speaking to someone who works at BP Refinery Kwinana, the refinery is due for shutdown for 6 months for maintenance and upgrade. It will be the last time an upgrade will be done to the plant, it's not cost effective to refine fuel in Australia compared to importing it direct from Singapore.

I think the move away from 91 octane fuel is to get the market ready for a total import of all fuels into Australia, with no local refineries in the next 5-10 years.

Wow Romulus, thanks for that. Aus has 23 days fuel security as of 2007ish (best data I found).

So, hate to do this on a Ford forum, but VEII 3.0 & V8, VFMY14 all motors can run on E85 ethanol, 100% with a chip. The catch is they use the GM HFV6... but, in event of future fuel supply drying up, these will run if you know what to do to ensure a supply of 'liquid sunshine' (check regs). It won't be glamorous, but it will beat the donkey.

Has anyone on the Forums taken a Ford I6 and ethanol converted/chipped it?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by muzman

a few years back i read an article (cant remember where) but they reckoned it took 1.5l of fossil fuel to make a litre of ethanol ...spose that would be 1.7l of ethanol to make a litre? ....probably all corporate propoganda who would know

i think ethanol as a by-product from dairy companies etc is probably viable ,dunno about growing crops specifically tho

Our ethanol comes from sugar cane waste products so its not specifically grown for fuel. The US I believe is different.

[XR8235]

Originally Posted by LG17

So what happens to all small engines - mowers, whipper snippers, rotary hoes, water pumps... ??

Give all your small engines a birthday 98 ya! They will love u.
I run everything on 98 no worries
Cheers

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by XR8235

Give all your small engines a birthday 98 ya! They will love u.
I run everything on 98 no worries
Cheers

Not all small engines will run properly on 98, especially at idle because of the slower burn rate of 98 compared to 91 fuel.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Wow Romulus, thanks for that. Aus has 23 days fuel security as of 2007ish (best data I found).

So, hate to do this on a Ford forum, but VEII 3.0 & V8, VFMY14 all motors can run on E85 ethanol, 100% with a chip. The catch is they use the GM HFV6... but, in event of future fuel supply drying up, these will run if you know what to do to ensure a supply of 'liquid sunshine' (check regs). It won't be glamorous, but it will beat the donkey.

Has anyone on the Forums taken a Ford I6 and ethanol converted/chipped it?

I'm sure there are xr6 turbos running E85 putting out large power numbers . That would be the ultimate liquid sunshine transport of choice over a lame lion .

[Sprintey]

OK cheers for that MM Any idea where I can research these E85 I6Ts?