Are cars REALLY getting smaller?

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

You're right! One too few zeros

Or I meant the unit of measure to be cm, not mm

Either way, 40cm/400mm is not really very much when you consider the first impressions one would have of seeing both vehicles individually.

Craig H

Ummm... It's almost half a metre mate! I hope you aren't a tradie

[Hawkeye84]

Small & Medium cars have gotten bigger and new segments have been created (micro, city, cross over, etc).

Its a heavily segmented market with a lot of players. Unfortunately for cars like Falcon and commodores who have remain relatively unchanged, they are losing out because people are happy with the value and size that these smaller (big) cars have to offer.

Falcons and Commodores are pretty much stuck in the middle of what are extremely competitive segments: Small/Medium and SUVs

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

The falcon has NOT become irrelevant, it's just that you can get a car now that is 'big enough' and 'quick enough' for half the price.

For most people that is now the case.
Also, in the past, when people thought "family car" they wanted something big to be safe. Now they look for ABS, DSC, mutliple airbags etc, and you can get all that in a much cheaper (and still roomy) package.

In days of old, I can recall our teacher taking the whole cricket team in his car, and the scout master taking 10 of us camping in his HQ wagon. In those days if you had to give extra kids a lift home, it was 4 across the back seat and a couple in the back of the wagon. Now we wouldn't dream of that, so if you want that flexibility you opt for a 7-seat suv.

So to answer my own question, there probably are a lot more people using something like a Focus as their "family car," so more of these "small" cars are selling, but they are a lot larger than small cars used to be.

[danzvtil]

25 years ago small cars were rubbish handlers, and had no features, AC on a small motor was a fair drain, the only option was a 6cyl local car.
Now, weve progressed somewhat, small cars have all the features previously reserved for large luxury cars for less money.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Ummm... It's almost half a metre mate! I hope you aren't a tradie

+ - 50cm tolerance

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

25 years ago small cars were rubbish handlers, and had no features, AC on a small motor was a fair drain, the only option was a 6cyl local car.
Now, weve progressed somewhat, small cars have all the features previously reserved for large luxury cars for less money.

25 years ago all cars were rubbish handlers by today's standard.
Could today's worst car actually be better then the best car from that period...hmmm define good... it will outbreak it, be safer than it, use less fuel doing it and handle corners better, rust less...Hmmm

JP

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Ummm... It's almost half a metre mate! I hope you aren't a tradie

Ok, since you wanted to start getting technical, the difference in length between the Focus ST and the 1995-97 model 80 series Landcruiser is exactly 458mm (refs are http://www.ford.com.au/cars/focus/sp...s/spec-options and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser). And, well done, that is nearly half a meter

But have a look at the difference between, say the Ambiente Hatch at 4558mm and the 1990-94 Landy at 4780mm. Just so we get that straight, that is exactly 222mm. For those not familiar with the use of 'yardsticks' that is less than your standard 30cm ruler.

I still think you've missed my point. My point was that people who look at an 80 series Landcruiser would consider that to be a 'land barge'. On the other hand, if they looked at the Focus, they would consider that to be a nice 'little' car.

And for the record, I am not a tradie. Rather I am an engineer, and I think I have a pretty reasonable comprehension of the importance of tolerance factors. But don't let that get in the way of a good story....

Craig H

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

.....I still think you've missed my point. My point was that people who look at an 80 series Landcruiser would consider that to be a 'land barge'. On the other hand, if they looked at the Focus, they would consider that to be a nice 'little' car.....

It doesn't matter how you word it - the Landcruiser is a barge.

They are bulky, high, heavy, corner like a barge, difficult to park & can block other road users sight of the road

I've owned one, loved it. Travelled the country. Drove one yesterday, and was reminded of its 'bargeness'

[FTE]

I noticed the same thing years ago.
I had parked my HSV VR GTS (1994 model) next to an ED Falcon which was same age but bigger. Anyhow it was parked nose to nose with a then newish Camry (2004) which was noticeably larger than the ED so in turn larger than my HSV.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

While I agree with you its only the current landcruiser that is bigger then the falcon in overall exterior dimensions. They have never been bigger than the Falcon of GM equivalent nor has the Nissan Patrol until again maybe recently. and they are only marginally bigger in width and length and even wheelbase.
The falcon and commode are also configured better such you fit more and more comfortably. and any other SUV or similar is smaller again.
I think much of the migration has been elevated seat position and emasculated men wanting tanks to prove manliness.


JP

I've always agreed with most of your Posts JP

but this one is Not true, My Territory fits more luggage and people comfortably than a Falcon, to suggest otherwise is absurd.
Perhaps other SUV's are not as large but they do offer 3rd row seats.

Proving manliness? you may find Women are the driving force behind SUV's ever heard of a soccer mum?
Myself I prefer the Elevated Position which gives me a better view of the road ahead, and is certainly better for my Back.
If that makes me feel like more of a Man, so be it.
Comment still stands People have migrated from Falcons and Commodores to SUV's before SUV's were on the market they had non problem selling Falcodores

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

I've always agreed with most of your Posts JP

but this one is Not true, My Territory fits more luggage and people comfortably than a Falcon, to suggest otherwise is absurd.
Perhaps other SUV's are not as large but they do offer 3rd row seats.

Proving manliness? you may find Women are the driving force behind SUV's ever heard of a soccer mum?
Myself I prefer the Elevated Position which gives me a better view of the road ahead, and is certainly better for my Back.
If that makes me feel like more of a Man, so be it.
Comment still stands People have migrated from Falcons and Commodores to SUV's before SUV's were on the market they had non problem selling Falcodores

Not knocking mate just having the joke about ladymen.
The territory is a great vehicle but based on the falcon I would suggest is larger than the previous models patrol and Landcruiser, which I referenced in my post, which in turn are larger then the prado, entrail and other SUV's et al. and of course I haven't driven or tried to fill them all. But have good experience with Patrols and Cruisers. probably 10 in the family since the early 90's through to about 5 years ago and the falcon is bigger than them. and wagon for wagon I can fit more in the falcon. of course less people due to less seats (third row)
My commentary was really aimed at actual overall size as well rather then internal space. Most people believe them bigger where in fact the big 4WD's were narrower and shorter.
I agree the SUV market is oriented towards the family member carrying the small people (perhaps the majority of which are women I'm not to comment)to and from wherever they go. They also provide the higher driving position which is great for the driver, I agree, not so good for all the other drivers trying to see around, past or across them (personal issues here)
And even soccer mums need to prove their manliness every now and then in traffic.

JP

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Not knocking mate just having the joke about ladymen.
The territory is a great vehicle but based on the falcon I would suggest is larger than the previous models patrol and Landcruiser, ....
JP

The SX Territory was not based on the Falcon, it did use Falcon componentry but the overall basic design was influenced by the BMW X5. Ford purchased two X5 for ideas; one they asses by driving etc, the other they stripped and studied.

Just look at the Territory's front suspension and steering rack location, totally changed from the then current BA.

The Territory was slightly wider than the Falcon, but also shorter. With the interior spacing and structure was all about comfort and useability.

The Territory was marketed as a SUV that was much more refined than a landcruiser or Patrol. And it was not all hype. The driving dynamics was amazing, the manoeuvrable dynamics fantastic due to it's shorter length. All this making it a favourite for both male and female drivers. Our Territory is easier to park than the Honda Accord Euro we have - I put that down to the FWD's disadvantage in lock to lock turns.

[2011G6E]

Yes, what were once "small" cars are now larger and roomier, and those that were "little compacts" are now in the same size class as "small" cars of thirty years ago.
However, even modern SUV's are "compact" in outside dimensions because of better packaging...you no longer need a physically large car to have roomy interiors.
Couple this with increasingly tighter car park spaces in a lot of areas and you have a problem.

Twin cabs are a whole other animal...they're large...huge by car standard sometimes...but they're very popular and becoming "normal". They no longer have the turning circle of an oil tanker too, which helps mask their bulk.

Look at a New Mini and a classic Mini. If you can find a picture of them side by side you'll be shocked at how large a new Mini actually is, but it's still a "small car".

[Marquis]

A Biante forum Fellas old Replica. Now owned by Glenn Everett and a Ford forums members R Spec

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The SX Territory was not based on the Falcon, it did use Falcon componentry but the overall basic design was influenced by the BMW X5. Ford purchased two X5 for ideas; one they asses by driving etc, the other they stripped and studied.

.

Sorry mate, the Tezz is built on a platform spun off the falcon, its different to falc, sure but if there was no falc, there would be no tezz.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Sorry mate, the Tezz is built on a platform spun off the falcon, its different to falc, sure but if there was no falc, there would be no tezz.

That's like saying the Porsche is spun off the Beatle. Yes they used the basics, but the design, shape & dynamics are worlds apart. As mentioned; the front suspension was a total redesign, the steering rack relocated, the engine relocated, the floor pan reshaped & shortened, the sheet metal redesigned & new material used, the interior redesigned.

The genes are there but it's grandad & grandson

It's all here http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=25080

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=15132

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by Marquis

A Biante forum Fellas old Replica.

Is it a 1:1.5 scale model?

[kaniSS]

"people aren't buying large cars any more,"

This is such BS. Every second car on the road is a Large Car, SUV, 4WD etc etc. There just not buying a Ford or a Holden anymore.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by kaniSS

"people aren't buying large cars any more,"

This is such BS. Every second car on the road is a Large Car, SUV, 4WD etc etc. There just not buying a Ford or a Holden anymore.

I don't think that SUV's, 4WD's & Ute's are in the same classification as 'cars'. Though I do see your point.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/

New Car sales for the month -
Small to medium 18404
Large - 3800

New SUV sales for the month -
Small to medium 6504
Large - 5862

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I don't think that SUV's, 4WD's & Ute's are in the same classification as 'cars'.

They're all passenger vehicles. They don't charge truck rego for RAV4s and Pajeros mate.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

They're all passenger vehicles. They don't charge truck rego for RAV4s and Pajeros mate.

Tell these guys - http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/ bloody idiots keep segregating those 4WD's, People Movers, Van's & Utes

Can I ask for a refund on my rego for the ute? They keep charging me commercial rates, and I call it a passenger car because it has two seats

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Tell these guys - http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/ bloody idiots keep segregating those 4WD's, People Movers, Van's & Utes

they're market segments/sub-classifications within passenger vehicles.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

they're market segments/sub-classifications within passenger vehicles.

That's pretty much what I said - "I don't think that SUV's, 4WD's & Ute's are in the same classification as 'cars'. Though I do see your point."

Originally Posted by johnydep

I don't think that SUV's, 4WD's & Ute's are in the same classification as 'cars'. Though I do see your point.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/305763/n...s-august-2014/

New Car sales for the month -
Small to medium 18404
Large - 3800

New SUV sales for the month -
Small to medium 6504
Large - 5862

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by johnydep

That's pretty much what I said - "I don't think that SUV's, 4WD's & Ute's are in the same classification as 'cars'. Though I do see your point."

I'm saying they are in the same classification as 'cars' just different sub-groups. So when they say there were x hundred thousand new 'cars' sold this year, it will include SUVs and utes. Anyway, if you still disagree with that I can't be bothered wasting more time talking about it.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

I'm saying they are in the same classification as 'cars' just different sub-groups. So when they say there were x hundred thousand new 'cars' sold this year, it will include SUVs and utes. Anyway, if you still disagree with that I can't be bothered wasting more time talking about it.

Yes you have wasted a fair bit of our time debating the obvious, that was clearly stated in the original post

Cars or Vehicles.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The Territory was marketed as a SUV that was much more refined than a landcruiser or Patrol. And it was not all hype. The driving dynamics was amazing, the manoeuvrable dynamics fantastic due to it's shorter length. All this making it a favourite for both male and female drivers. Our Territory is easier to park than the Honda Accord Euro we have - I put that down to the FWD's disadvantage in lock to lock turns.

A bit off topic, but yes, the Terry is an awesome car. Instead of buying a Prado or Patrol that will never go off road, the Terry offers all the advantages, but combines that with superb ride and handling.

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

When I was looking at purchasing the ST, I did some comparisons to other cars in overall size. I was surprised to find the ST is almost identical in size to a VL Commodore.

And even more surprising, the ST has a longer and wider wheelbase than an 80 series Landcruiser, and is only 40mm shorter in body length.

When I pull up in the driveway with the ST, the comments are similar to: "wow, look at that cute little thing". I bet if I rocked up in the driveway with an 80 series Landcruiser, it would be more along the lines of "why are you driving that giant beast".

Perceptions are amazing.....

Craig H

80 series also weighs a tonne more than Focus so it is not just perception...

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Ok, since you wanted to start getting technical, the difference in length between the Focus ST and the 1995-97 model 80 series Landcruiser is exactly 458mm (refs are http://www.ford.com.au/cars/focus/sp...s/spec-options and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser). And, well done, that is nearly half a meter

But have a look at the difference between, say the Ambiente Hatch at 4558mm and the 1990-94 Landy at 4780mm. Just so we get that straight, that is exactly 222mm. For those not familiar with the use of 'yardsticks' that is less than your standard 30cm ruler.

I still think you've missed my point. My point was that people who look at an 80 series Landcruiser would consider that to be a 'land barge'. On the other hand, if they looked at the Focus, they would consider that to be a nice 'little' car.

And for the record, I am not a tradie. Rather I am an engineer, and I think I have a pretty reasonable comprehension of the importance of tolerance factors. But don't let that get in the way of a good story....

Craig H

Why pick a Landcruiser model from 1990s and compare it to a current Focus.
Current 'cruiser dwarfs the Focus and 80 series was huge compared to Laser (focus equivalent) - they all grew over the years but ratios have been maintained.
Land barge is referring to weight, handling and speed rather than just lenght and wheelbase...

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Why pick a Landcruiser model from 1990s and compare it to a current Focus.
Current 'cruiser dwarfs the Focus and 80 series was huge compared to Laser (focus equivalent) - they all grew over the years but ratios have been maintained.
Land barge is referring to weigh, handling and speed rather than just lenght and wheelbase...

Yeah it is one thing to make a sausage out of yourself, but then to keep waffling on trying to justify it is just digging a bigger hole.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

My '69 AMC Javelin looks small compared to a current Corolla.

Not sure about the current model Corolla... but a few years back.. a Corolla Sedan was longer, wider and twice as powerful as an EH Holden !

OK... the two are years apart etc... but in your minds eye a corolla is a "small" car.... and an EH was a "Family" sized car.... but the memory doen't match the reality anymore !

D