NSW P plate laws for those interested *Dont mean to offend*

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by Rodp

I would be?

My first car was a 1.3L Escort that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. My cars were pretty modest to start out with as I learned how to drive, read traffic and learn some common sense. I didn't have to learn how to wrestle with a car if a rush of blood came over me because there was no wrestling with that car, it was armless, legless and had no teeth. If I had to go through it all over again I'd likely do the same thing.

My dad would have been, he has had a V8 all his life. First car a 302 XW GS sold that in a month and bought a 351 XA. He woulda been filthy with these rules if they were in place back in the day.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

lets get some perspective here . P platers are in such a rush to get into a V8 or FI car they forget a few things.

1. they are not experienced drivers they are still learners who have been allowed to progress to the next level ( solo )
2. they hold a provisional licence this means there are strict conditions attached they are not full licence holders and as such do not enjoy the privileges enjoyed by more experienced drivers
3. driving is a privilege not a right
4. the restriction only lasts 3 years and when you gain experience you will be able to drive more powerful cars
5. you are not the only drivers with restrictions someone with a C class licence for example can't drive a rigid 10 ton truck or a B double licences are issued according to skill and experience
6. P plate drivers are disproportionately represented in the road toll statistics so for public safety restrictions were imposed

So you can't drive the car of your choice for a massive 3 years ! Such a hardship. lets look at similar situations in other areas . a pilot when he qualifies does not just jump into a 747 he has to gain experience in smaller less powerful aircraft first would you advocate allowing a newly qualified pilot to fly a 747?
In motor racing do you think you can wake up one morning and think “I have more cash than brains” I’ll drive at Bathurst next weekend! You have to gain experience in motor racing to reach this level
A Dr finishes his degree and is qualified but he still has to do 5 to 6 years training in a speciality would you advocate they be allowed to perform a heart transplant straight out of uni? They are doctors after all? I think not



During your L plate phase you gain limited experience and pass a test which allows to go out unsupervised . If you were a fully qualified driver you wouldn't need to pass 2 more tests to gain a full licence. P Plate drivers need to be patient if you survive your early driving career (and remember P platers are a high risk for a road death) you can drive a 15 litre V16 if you wish with quad turbo’s if you so desire
relax and drive a car more suited to your experience and abilities it's only 3 years FFS

I agree there should be a power limit but there are a lot of V8's out there that come under the power to weight limit.

Then again those people who buy a V8 are generally fully sick. So maybe the laws are a good idea.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

My dad would have been, he has had a V8 all his life. First car a 302 XW GS sold that in a month and bought a 351 XA. He woulda been filthy with these rules if they were in place back in the day.

Both of which would have been slower in stock form than an base model 6 cylinder FG Falcon!

You young guys aren't hard done by. My first car was a Datsun Stanza ( lots of fun and a top speed of 140kph), next car was an XD Falcon with a 250CI motor and alloy head which I thought was a beast, but in fact probably did the 1/4 mile in about 18 seconds.

At around the same time, new Brock crummidores were THE performance weapon of choice for guys with the money to buy them with a 1/4 mile time somewhere between 15.5 and 16 seconds in stock trim. The XE ESPs with a 351 were as hipo as you could get if you were a die hard Ford fan until they bought out the XF which had no V8 available.

These V8 Brock/ESP cars which were the top of the heap then are slower over the 1/4 mile than the new base model FG Falc!

You have access to a whole different league of cars compared to us older blokes, both performance and especially handling.

Just because the government brings out some crummy ill informed law banning you from the highest performing vehicles available for a year or two, doesn't mean you are being hard done by. Think of it this way too guys. In 4 or 5 years, the way car development is going the performance is going to be better again than the cars available right now! Just look at the difference in power outputs between the AU I series and the BFII for an example of what I mean (no offence to Au owners).

Whats more you will actually be around to own them if you want!

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Both of which would have been slower in stock form than an base model 6 cylinder FG Falcon!

Exactly mate, and which can we drive?? That was where my beef lies, I can't drive the XY but i can hop into a 6cyl BF falcon and it would most likely be quicker. I'm no idiot and im not that concerned really, but an outright ban is silly IMO. Power to weight would be much more effective. I can still enjoy the XB though, great to drive and get positive comments off heaps of people .

[Airmon]

I think the point people are raising is that the laws seem flawed rather then "I'm so hard done by because I can't drive a V8", so why do you blokes keep bringing that up rather then a discussion on the laws?
The only 'hard done by' comments are that people feel cheated that because some people cannot responsibly drive a car they get the punishment for it.
Oh hold on a second, a few 50yo were killed driving over the Christmas break, lets ban all people from driving between the ages of 50 and 53, yeah that will lessen their deaths, I mean come on guys its only 3 years.
Are you seeing the point I'm trying to get across to you here?

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

Power to weight would be much more effective. .

Of course it would. But we are talking about a bunch of beaurocrats with a lower than average IQ, who are sitting around making up stupid laws to justify there existence and their measily pay cheque.

There was another great law which effected me when I lived in Sydney.

It involved aftermarket exhausts on motorbikes.

It was labelled the sticker tax by those opposed to it and involved being fined for having an aftermarket muffled on a bike regardless of whether the bike actually broke any EPA noise laws. If you had a sticker on it that was issued by appropriate workshop, it was a legal muffler. Your mate on an identical bike with an identical muffler and no sticker got fined!

Basically if your bike didn't have a sticker on it saying that your muffler was under 94dB, or had the maker of the motorbike stamped on it ( proving that it was the muffler that the bike left the factory with), you got a fine!

[FlipXW]

Yea :. Anyway guys as i said in my first post im not concerned anymore, 3 years isnt really a great length of time. Im just happy to get out and about.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

Exactly mate, and which can we drive??

So buy the one you are legaly allowed to drive and be happy knowing that it is faster than any V8 produced in the 80s ( and most in the 70s) and you can thumb your nose at the idiots that make up there stupid laws for the sake of justifying their job!

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

Yea :. Anyway guys as i said in my first post im not concerned anymore, 3 years isnt really a great length of time. Im just happy to get out and about.

Definitely. How much closer and more fun is the Maccas drive through in a car, when compared to a pushy!!

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

So buy the one you are legaly allowed to drive and be happy knowing that it is faster than any V8 produced in the 80s ( and most in the 70s) and you can thumb your nose at the idiots that make up there stupid laws for the sake of justifying their job!

Thats not my point, I dont care if my car goes 0-100 in 15 seconds, I just wanted to be able to drive the car I built and love. I do not want to drag at the lights, i dont wanna **** cause my cars faster than my mates, i just wanted to drive what i will most certainly enjoy and can be proud of. I hope you get where im coming from

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

Then again those people who buy a V8 are generally fully sick.

So are those who drive eseries

This thread is ok for now but let's not get to the point where it is just more whinging and carrying on.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Definitely. How much closer and more fun is the Maccas drive through in a car, when compared to a pushy!!

Well thats no good either cause the only time i go to maccas is when im p!ssed, so its walk through for me .

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by PhilXR8

Thats not my point, I dont care if my car goes 0-100 in 15 seconds, I just wanted to be able to drive the car I built and love.

Yeah I understand where you're at and I feel for you! The good news is that 3 years goes by real quick! In the mean time get a cheap little runabout and drive the wheel off it. What you save in insurance ( assuming you only will need 3rd party fire and theft for your built car while it sits there) and fuel can go towards even more goodies for your pride and joy mate!

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Airmon

Oh hold on a second, a few 50yo were killed driving over the Christmas break, lets ban all people from driving between the ages of 50 and 53, yeah that will lessen their deaths

what a load of shite the issue is not a few deaths it is the fact that stage 2 and 3 learners (what red and green P platers really are as they still need to pass 2 tests to get a full licence) are disproportionatly represented in the road toll statistics. yes it might be a relativley small number of you who play up but they are dying and this needs to be addressed . sure there is scope for improvement but this is a step in the right direction. as i stated P platers are not experienced enough to drive high performance cars and drivers caught driving prohibited cars should face immediate loss of licence and a heafty fine . after all the consequences of an inexperienced driver killing an inocent 3rd party are much increased in a high performance car

[Tote]

I thought this might have been badly drafted legislation but after a look here it actually seems pretty reasonable and better than some previous attempts by the RTA. Sure, you can't drive that 351 GS XY that you wanted but you've got three years to build it up where you won't be able to wrap it around a tree. I'm hard pressed to think of anything unfair about the rules as long as the exemptions are intelligently administered ( which might be a pretty big ask for the RTA )

Regards,
Tote

[flappist]

It is always amusing to read these threads.

P platers are NOT young drivers. P platers are people who have not learned to drive fully yet. Age is irrelevent. If you are 30 and have just got your licence you are a P plater with a low experience/skillset the same as a 17 year old in the same circumstances.

The difference is that the 30 year old has been around long enough to realise the young people make silly decissions, have difficulty in comprehending the big picture and are convinced that they are immortal, undefeatable and always right.
The problem with being immature is that you are too immature to realise or understand that you are immature.....

This is why young people tend to get treated more leniently by the law. e.g. 18 year old does silly thing, bum kicked; 40 year old does same silly thing, severe penalty.

This is the way it is now, always has been and always will be and those 20 odd year olds who are screaming and yelling about this now will be the ones trying to convice the the next group that they are not as good as they think in 2028.

Some here are mature enough to reason this out and realise there may be something to it, other will just have a big spit and tanti and blame the old buggers who are just trying to make theirs lives boring out of spite.

If you are lucky one day you will be an old bugger, if not you will be an example.

[DirtyHarry]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem with being immature is that you are too immature to realise or understand that you are immature.....

Exactly!!!

The young blokes whinging about the P-Plate laws tend to overlook a few things,

- Old farts, such as myself, were young once, and we have memories. We know what it's like to be young. We remember the stupid things we did in cars that were a lot less powerful than today's vehicles. It's not that we don't understand, we understand very well.

- A lot of us have lost friends and family members in car accidents that shouldn't have happened. We have felt the pain of losing loved ones in circumstances that could have been avoided, and seen many other families experience the same thing. It changes your perception quite a bit, particularly when you have kids of your own.

- Pretty much everybody agrees that a lot of the P plate restrictions are aimed to the careless few, and we understand that more careful or experienced drivers affected by the same laws may feel hard done by. Tough. The fact is the P plate restrictions are keeping a lot of people alive.

- Yes, it seems unfair to allow people to drive modern 6 cylinder vehicles that have a lot more power than an old school V8, whilst banning the V8s, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. The P plate laws are a risk management strategy, not a 100% sure-fire method of stopping P platers killing themselves and others. People can, and will, drive any car beyond the limits of their own abilities. Even a high speed crash in a Yaris is possible. But as the results of the restrictions have shown, the extent of the problem can be reduced. That's what the legislation sought to achieve, and it seems to be what it has produced.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Of course it would. But we are talking about a bunch of beaurocrats with a lower than average IQ, who are sitting around making up stupid laws to justify there existence and their measily pay cheque.

There was another great law which effected me when I lived in Sydney.

It involved aftermarket exhausts on motorbikes.

It was labelled the sticker tax by those opposed to it and involved being fined for having an aftermarket muffled on a bike regardless of whether the bike actually broke any EPA noise laws. If you had a sticker on it that was issued by appropriate workshop, it was a legal muffler. Your mate on an identical bike with an identical muffler and no sticker got fined!

Basically if your bike didn't have a sticker on it saying that your muffler was under 94dB, or had the maker of the motorbike stamped on it ( proving that it was the muffler that the bike left the factory with), you got a fine!

Yeah you always had to watch out for people stealing your sticker too!

Now the problem with people banning V8's and turbos is that there is NO CORRELATION BETWEEN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS AND ACCIDENTS.

That's right it wasn't people in XR8's and SS's killing themselves it was people in 80's Corollas and V6 Commodores killing themselves. I have had a few mates have accidents and some have killed themselves but NONE OF THEM WERE DRIVING HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS. In fact if one of my mates was driving an XR6 Turbo equipped with airbags and nice thick shell instead of the tin can Daihatsu he was driving than he would probably be here today.

Now I'm not saying young people in high powered cars don't drive recklessly but the fact is that they are not crashing-it's average joe in his stock Toyota Camry driving to his mums house for sunday lunch.

And even more worrying is that people here are telling people not to worry about it and buy a bomb until they get off their P's. Well I will bet my pair that an XR8 equip with sports suspension and sports tyres is going to be a lot safer than a rattly old VN Commodore with buggered shocks and bald tyres.

The only upside of these laws as they have invented a parity law for all the p plater street racers. Since V8's and turbos are off the table then street racing is going to be a lot closer as most NA six cylinder cars are very close in performance.

It's not 0-100 that matters it's 100-0

[4Vman]

I wonder why its nearly allways only those affected by restrictions that are the ones claiming they have no merrit from a safety or life preservation point of view...
Yet those who are able to comment with the benefit of age and experience disagree... remembering too, these 'older more experienced" people were young once too, and can now draw on that maturity and the experience of being young... which helps form these opinions and in some cases develop these restrictions..

Food for thought....

[rennie]

now the problem with people banning V8's and turbos is that there is NO CORRELATION BETWEEN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS AND ACCIDENTS.

Good point.

I am still on my P's and have lost my licence twice. I beleive that these laws are good because it stops people driving cars they cannot handle. The problem with them is that it needs to be refined in a way thatr people can drive the older less powerful v8s if they want as they don't have as much power.

Better driver education is a must. Most of the time when us young blokes do somethig stupid the things that go through our heads is : Cops, Crashing my nice car, & losin my licence. Pepole need to be educated in a way that mkes them think about their life and other people not just possesions.

[troppo]

Originally Posted by DirtyHarry

- Yes, it seems unfair to allow people to drive modern 6 cylinder vehicles that have a lot more power than an old school V8, whilst banning the V8s, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

This post and the one above it by Flappist say it all but I'll just add that the newer 6 cylinder cars also have much more in the way of life preserving safety features than the old school V8's as well. Airbags, ABS brakes, crumple zones, side intrusion bars...that sort of thing.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Now the problem with people banning V8's and turbos is that there is NO CORRELATION BETWEEN HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS AND ACCIDENTS.

Yeh every time there is a major splat at 160++ km/h it is an old guy.......

The problem with high performance cars is that they are exactly that. Everything happens more quickly and if something is going slightly wrong you have a lot shorter time to resolve it if in fact you know HOW to resolve it.

Driving cannot be taught it must be learnt. It takes time and exposure to aquire the skillset require to resolve "unusual attitudes". I recently went to a skidpan day with many other AFF members and am very sure that there is much to be learned by many.

It is also interesting to note that the inexperienced drivers who scream that they want turbos and V8s are the ones most likely to do silly things because they are car enthusiests and like to play with their cars.

But this is an arguement that can never be won for when the screamer finally gets to drive their precious V8/turbo legally he is much older, has several years experience and can look at the silly little dummy spitters who are just starting to complain about the restrictions on their 10 minute old licence and assure anyone who will listen that he was NEVER as bad as THEM......