Ford strike back with police cars

[bigsta]

This is happening and 70000 is not a huge number when you think that there is 320 000 000 people over there.

The AWD models are really FWD with RWD on demand and are not suitable for pursuits so they will not happen with the exception of support vehicles the crown vic will be gone soon and the only real RWD left is the holden built caprice.

BTW have any of you been in a crown vic?? they are so shoddy they have not changed the car other than a few visual things since 1978 it still has leaf suspension!! Think XD falcon but no where near as good so the police that have had the fortune to try the caprice are pushing it really hard as it will be a revolution for them not just in the integrated electronics etc but the actual drivability of the car, safety and comfort.

This will happen and Ford US/AUST missed out big time.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I think Toby Hagon has taken alot of liberty with the facts, which may have been something like, the mayor may drive around in the car for day or a week to determine if the car is suitable for policing purposes.

Or when the mayor go pinch stealing city funds.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by bigsta

This is happening and 70000 is not a huge number when you think that there is 320 000 000 people over there.

The AWD models are really FWD with RWD on demand and are not suitable for pursuits so they will not happen with the exception of support vehicles the crown vic will be gone soon and the only real RWD left is the holden built caprice.

BTW have any of you been in a crown vic?? they are so shoddy they have not changed the car other than a few visual things since 1978 it still has leaf suspension!! Think XD falcon but no where near as good so the police that have had the fortune to try the caprice are pushing it really hard as it will be a revolution for them not just in the integrated electronics etc but the actual drivability of the car, safety and comfort.

This will happen and Ford US/AUST missed out big time.

The entire American police market is 70,000 vehicles/year - nothing to do with the population of the US as there won't be a civilian version released to the public. US police forces have been using FWD Chevy Impala's for years, especially in the snowy northern states where FWD is an advantage!

As for pursuits, the EcoBoost AWD Ford Police Interceptor proved quicker than the Caprice in the LAPD's notorious police vehicle testing and besides, no crim can outrun a radio!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bigsta

This is happening and 70000 is not a huge number when you think that there is 320 000 000 people over there.

The AWD models are really FWD with RWD on demand and are not suitable for pursuits so they will not happen with the exception of support vehicles the crown vic will be gone soon and the only real RWD left is the holden built caprice.

Rubbish, the Ford AWD system throws up to 90% of the power at the rear wheels on launch and continually varies the power during operation to allow maximum force to be exerted where the most traction exists, be that be right or left, front or rear.

Actually, in snow belt states the AWD car make the RWD pursuit car look silly in low traction conditions and since the majority of the US population lives in the north and east areas, AWD and FWD car make perfectly good
sense for serving the needs of most police departments.

You only have to look what RWD has all but died out over there to realise that it doesn't work for Americans any more, they prefer FWD/AWD

BTW have any of you been in a crown vic?? they are so shoddy they have not changed the car other than a few visual things since 1978 it still has leaf suspension!! Think XD falcon but no where near as good so the police that have had the fortune to try the caprice are pushing it really hard as it will be a revolution for them not just in the integrated electronics etc but the actual drivability of the car, safety and comfort.

The crown Victoria has been serving police in the USA for the past 20 years or more without much competition, do you think that Ford would have let something like a unitary Fairlane die if it was a worthy successor?
No, they have a far better solution that offer superior winter traction and also drives handles the same as the PI Ute (Explorer) something Caprice cannot offer is commonality of parts across two different vehicles, that's
something large fleets want.

My prediction is that yes, Caprice PPV will sell in the USA but the bulk of interceptor sales will be split between Hemi V8 Charger and Ecoboost PI, the packages and pricing are just too good for Holden to match without
doing their shirts.

[FPV GTHO]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction

Between the AWD Taurus PI and a potential AWD Falcon, some people need to catch up on the tech behind these systems and cut the crap on their "drawbacks"

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

As for pursuits, the EcoBoost AWD Ford Police Interceptor proved quicker than the Caprice in the LAPD's notorious police vehicle testing and besides, no crim can outrun a radio!

Funny how this little gem has been conveniently overlooked in the media circlejerking about the Caprice PPV's performance (and everything else).

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Well that story must be completely wrong. For one thing, they arent going to make a civilian version of the car, so why would the mayor drive around in a patrol car. Secondly, the rear seat is not going to be configured for luxury passengers (as it is intended to hold criminals), so not exactly suitable for driving around a mayor.

I think Toby Hagon has taken alot of liberty with the facts, which may have been something like, the mayor may drive around in the car for day or a week to determine if the car is suitable for policing purposes.

Don't know much about Phoenix however maybe the mayor needs a Police escort when ever he dons the mayoral robes and ventures out to sod turning ceremonies..... plus I missed this part in the same story..

Police also believe the Caprice could go on to become a collector’s item given it’s a vehicle that is not available for sale to anyone but authorities in the States.

...just have to steam clean then carefully so all the sugary crumbs from years of donuts don't cause ant nests to swamp them once in private hands...

[Road_Warrior]

O rly

So the Caprice PPV has a column shift now or what??

[bigsta]

Guys the Ford US built rip off version of the Haldex system is really nothing decent at all, come back to me after you driven it. There is a reason why Ford is so tight liped about the performance of this system its because its no where near as good as their marketing dept says it is.

While the original if hooked up to some decent equipment is awesome these are not that.

AWD can be awesome but the norm these days seems to be to save as much $$$ as possible so a FWD system gets adapted to send power to the back wheels when the ESC tells it to this equates to a FWD car with a little bit of assistance when you start to lose it.

My prediction is the caprice and the dodge will be the highway patrol cars the caprice for general duties cars and in areas that need it the 4x4s will still be used.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bigsta

Guys the Ford US built rip off version of the Haldex system is really nothing decent at all, come back to me after you driven it. There is a reason why Ford is so tight liped about the performance of this system its because its no where near as good as their marketing dept says it is.
.

I have driven Fords in the USA with the said AWD as recently as late 2009.
I have found them quite sure footed in less than stellar weather conditions.
What you say is indicative of someone with a closed mind because the main
difference in the Haldex system compared to Ford is all to do with software.
That makes the world of difference transforming the former so so AWD into
something quite spectacular to drive...

My prediction is that Holden will stay rather quiet about Caprice PPV
and push local production of Cruze Hatch for all its worth...

And FWIW, I resent Holden turning a beautiful $65K luxury vehicle into a $24K squad car.
It's kinda smacks of loser when they should have been exporting Buick Park Avenues there.

[Chilliman]

One of the big advantages that is of particular interest to police forces on a tight budget is that after years of using Crown Vic PI, which barely changed over those years - so little in fact that polices depts saved heaps via the ability to transfer their equipment from the old PI's to the new ones, the new Taurus-based Ford Police interceptor has been designed to accept the equipment currently used in the Crown Vics with no modifications or in a few instances very minor mods....thats a pretty powerful arguement for Ford right there!

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I have driven Fords in the USA with the said AWD as recently as late 2009.
I have found them quite sure footed in less than stellar weather conditions.
What you say is indicative of someone with a closed mind because the main
difference in the Haldex system compared to Ford is all to do with software.
That makes the world of difference transforming the former so so AWD into
something quite spectacular to drive...

.

Well I found the exact opposite! and all the software upgrades and advanced fuzzy logic is not gonna do a bit of good when you have a rear diff the size of a apple.

Not closed minded at all I love AWD when its done right, Audi, Subaru, Porche and even Ford with the Territory all do it really well just to name a few.

But than you have the XC90, kluger, taurus any AWD Honda etc.. these are just FWD with a gimmick of AWD on demand for the punters that dont have a clue.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bigsta

Well I found the exact opposite! and all the software upgrades and advanced fuzzy logic is not gonna do a bit of good when you have a rear diff the size of a apple.

Not closed minded at all I love AWD when its done right, Audi, Subaru, Porche and even Ford with the Territory all do it really well just to name a few.

But than you have the XC90, kluger, taurus any AWD Honda etc.. these are just FWD with a gimmick of AWD on demand for the punters that dont have a clue.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Ford has specifically
developed the new PI and PI Ute in conjunction with police representative for police
duties, they know what is needed for whole of fleet and that's what they're after.

Look for a moment what GM is offering...Impala (FWD), Caprice (RWD) Tahoe (AWD/4WD)
that's three completely different vehicles that drive differently.......

Look at what Ford now has: FWD Taurus, AWD Taurus, AWD PI Ute... all three of those
vehicles share a lot of parts and have similar handling characteristics. Now, if you were in
charge of major fleet purchases, wouldn't you want to buy vehicles that offer a uniform
parts strategy as well as consistent handling/driving characteristics across the board?

See the Caprice isn't a bad vehicle, it's just that it lacks diversity with a companion SUV
and lack of FWD in snow conditions are seen as big impediments for Northern States.
So until you can grasp that the buying trends for police departments is changing,
you won't get why GM will struggle with the Caprice. It's accountants that have the
majority of pull with buying vehicles, not police officers and there's a huge discounting
war going on at the moment, V6 Charger $18.5K, CVPI $20.5K, V8 Charger $25K
so while Caprice might get some cruiser sales, it is limited in terms of widespread roll out
something Ford is going for with Taurus/explorer based PVs.

All the same, good luck Holden with Caprice PPV but it's a shame
you weren't selling Park Avenue (Lucerne) like originally promised.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

O rly

So the Caprice PPV has a column shift now or what??

That's not a Commodore is it?

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Paxton

That's not a Commodore is it?

It's an Impala

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. Ford has specifically
developed the new PI and PI Ute in conjunction with police representative for police
duties, they know what is needed for whole of fleet and that's what they're after.

Look for a moment what GM is offering...Impala (FWD), Caprice (RWD) Tahoe (AWD/4WD)
that's three completely different vehicles that drive differently.......

Look at what Ford now has: FWD Taurus, AWD Taurus, AWD PI Ute... all three of those
vehicles share a lot of parts and have similar handling characteristics. Now, if you were in
charge of major fleet purchases, wouldn't you want to buy vehicles that offer a uniform
parts strategy as well as consistent handling/driving characteristics across the board?

See the Caprice isn't a bad vehicle, it's just that it lacks diversity with a companion SUV
and lack of FWD in snow conditions are seen as big impediments for Northern States.
So until you can grasp that the buying trends for police departments is changing,
you won't get why GM will struggle with the Caprice. It's accountants that have the
majority of pull with buying vehicles, not police officers and there's a huge discounting
war going on at the moment, V6 Charger $18.5K, CVPI $20.5K, V8 Charger $25K
so while Caprice might get some cruiser sales, it is limited in terms of widespread roll out
something Ford is going for with Taurus/explorer based PVs.

All the same, good luck Holden with Caprice PPV but it's a shame
you weren't selling Park Avenue (Lucerne) like originally promised.

The Caprice will be a better drivers car than Taurus and will fit in to existing driver training with ease as RWD V8 layout mimics the Crown Vic. Whereas the FWD Taurus will need different training.

But certainly Taurus will be very cheap to buy which is important. However many smaller police forces are funded locally, the officer gets to pick his car and its taken home as well. I think many of these smaller forces will opt for the Caprice as its what an officer wants: Bigger than a cargo ship, 6L V8 and RWD. The Taurus will be popular with the big fleets who care about running costs, who basically want a Camry with flashing lights.

[bigsta]

Anyway I hope Holden are able to flog them in good quanties as its good for Australia and good for Ford as than they may see the error of not having a LHD program and Ford US may look at what Ford oz are capable of in the RWD segment which means $$ for falcon development.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Brazen

However many smaller police forces are funded locally, the officer gets to pick his car and its taken home as well. I think many of these smaller forces will opt for the Caprice as its what an officer wants:.

Where do you get this little Gem from. I think you have probably been watching too much Dukes of Hazards or something. Policing tends to be a 24 hour per day job, whilst most officers would tend to work your normal 40 hour week. So whilst the officer who works the 8am to 4pm shift gets to take the squad car home, the guys who work 4pm to midnight, or midnight to 8am have to ring him up (and tell him to return the squad car back to the station), so they can go and attend a crime scene, or do traffic stops.

There are approx 1.3 million police officers (as of 2006), in the US.

Police officers
2006 654,000

Police and sheriff's patrol officers
2006 648,000

I'd assume apart from Police chiefs, and a few of the other top guys in each force, it would be extremely rare for an officer to take cars home. And the ones that did, would not be taking a "police" car

[Sprint XR8]

Patrol car on agenda, other purchases approved

By: RYAN D. WILSON, News Editor January 14, 2011

On Friday council members who are the council's Police Advisory Committee discussed purchasing a patrol car for Clay Center, gave Police Chief Bill Robinson permission to make several purchases under $3,000, authorized Robinson to hire a part-time officer, and agreed officers and firefighters should be paid a little better on the holidays.

Robinson said it's time to replace a patrol car. He presented prices of $19,689.95 for an Impala, $22,600 for a six-cylinder Dodge Charger, $24,700 for a Crown Vic, and $25,854 for a Chevrolet Caprice.

Committee members were surprised at how low the Impala is. Mayor Sharon Brown said that's "not a lot" for a police car.

Robinson said he'd love to get his hands on a Caprice because the vehicle is currently top rated for speed, braking and turning ability, and included features such as touch screens and seats contoured specifically for an officer wearing police gear.

The features are impressive "but it costs too much," he said.

All vehicles can reach high speeds -- the Impala can go up to 147 mph, Robinson said. They all have excellent turning ability and can brake quickly too.

Councilman Daton Hess asked why so many law enforcement agencies had switched to Dodge Chargers. That's because it used to be the top-rated police vehicle before the Caprice, Robinson said.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...d=190958&rfi=6

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...d=190958&rfi=6

This could be it. This could almost be the Caprice Police car sale that Deveraux has been talking about. But somehow the sums just dont seem to do it for me.

Sales pitch to Clay centre police dept (with demo) = $5000
export car from adelaide to california on ship = $1000
Transport car from california to Kansas = $750
Cost of Car to make = $40,000

Total cost = $46500

Sell car to Clay Centre for $25854

mmmmmm if I lose $21000 on every car I make, may I one day end up being called Government motors again.

[jpd80]

Times are still tough in the US and accountants hold sway in a lot of governemnt departments..
An expensive police car might thrill the Sheriff but not the people who voted him in.
People trading in existing police vehicles can reuse a lot of the police equipment off the old car,
you can't do that if you buy a Holden, you have to buy another $10,000 or so in equipment.
That's the hidden cost, Caprice needs time for sales to mature and become second generation.

Ford were smart in this respect as a lot of the equipment off the Crown Victoria Police Interceptor
can be reused on the new Taurus based PI. This is something Ford was acutely aware of...

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

This could be it. This could almost be the Caprice Police car sale that Deveraux has been talking about. But somehow the sums just dont seem to do it for me.

Sales pitch to Clay centre police dept (with demo) = $5000
export car from adelaide to california on ship = $1000
Transport car from california to Kansas = $750
Cost of Car to make = $40,000

Total cost = $46500

Sell car to Clay Centre for $25854

mmmmmm if I lose $21000 on every car I make, may I one day end up being called Government motors again.

I don't know where you get your figures from but i am guessing you work for the NSW govt with maths skills like that.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by bigsta

I don't know where you get your figures from but i am guessing you work for the NSW govt with maths skills like that.

They were rough guesses and rough totalling to boot. Just a very simple exercise to show, that even if someone felt the need to lop off a $1000 from the asumptions here or there, there is no way that Holden could build a Caprice, land it in the middle of america, sell it for $26,000 and make nothing but a huge loss. Be it $10,000 or be it $20,000, I can assure you, GM wont be wearing the cost, Holden wont be wearing the cost, Every Australian car buyer will be wearing the cost.

Gee, if Holden can land a Caprice in Kansas for $26000, Ford could land a Falcon in there for $15,000.mmmmmm If they could Land a Falcon in kansas for $15000, we should be able to pick them up in Melbourne for $14000.

Oh thats right, they dont need to sell them for under $35000, because they sell so well here.

All this crap about how the Falcon should compete with the commodore for US exports, is similar to trying and picking a winner in a hari kari contest. Doh, the first person to kill himself is the winner.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Where do you get this little Gem from. I think you have probably been watching too much Dukes of Hazards or something. Policing tends to be a 24 hour per day job, whilst most officers would tend to work your normal 40 hour week. So whilst the officer who works the 8am to 4pm shift gets to take the squad car home, the guys who work 4pm to midnight, or midnight to 8am have to ring him up (and tell him to return the squad car back to the station), so they can go and attend a crime scene, or do traffic stops.

There are approx 1.3 million police officers (as of 2006), in the US.

Police officers
2006 654,000

Police and sheriff's patrol officers
2006 648,000

I'd assume apart from Police chiefs, and a few of the other top guys in each force, it would be extremely rare for an officer to take cars home. And the ones that did, would not be taking a "police" car

I said smaller police forces, some of the officers pick the car and some get to take it home. Often the Police staff during the day will be 5 times as many as ones rostered at night, the ones who take the car home will often be on call. I was staying in North Dakota back in 2004 and an officer down the street took his Crown Vic (with snow chains) home every night, he said that on renewel (at 100,000 miles!!!) he had the choice between another Crown Vic or a Tahoe (RWD). The US police forces are set up differently to here, over there they have multiple counties with their own police forces plus highway patrol and state troopers. Some counties only have one or two cars but they have their own unique: cars, lightbars, equipment, sirens, colours and liverys. Not much economy of scale over there.

Each state is different though so I can see the Caprice working for small counties who keep their cars for up to 7 or 8 years... ie they are picked by the sheriff and the officers.



As an aside the Caprice name is held in the highest regard over there as a cop car. After GM discontinued the Caprice some stations eventually had 5.7 litre Caprices with over 200,000 miles on them as the officers preferred them a lot more to a new 4.6 Crown Vic. The 94 Caprice is known as probably one of the best US patrol cars ever, its really hard to find a decent second hand example as most stations didnt get rid of them until they were dead.

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

They were rough guesses and rough totalling to boot. Just a very simple exercise to show, that even if someone felt the need to lop off a $1000 from the asumptions here or there, there is no way that Holden could build a Caprice, land it in the middle of america, sell it for $26,000 and make nothing but a huge loss. Be it $10,000 or be it $20,000, I can assure you, GM wont be wearing the cost, Holden wont be wearing the cost, Every Australian car buyer will be wearing the cost.

Gee, if Holden can land a Caprice in Kansas for $26000, Ford could land a Falcon in there for $15,000.mmmmmm If they could Land a Falcon in kansas for $15000, we should be able to pick them up in Melbourne for $14000.

Oh thats right, they dont need to sell them for under $35000, because they sell so well here.

All this crap about how the Falcon should compete with the commodore for US exports, is similar to trying and picking a winner in a hari kari contest. Doh, the first person to kill himself is the winner.

Mate sorry for being a bit harsh before but i think you missed my point it does not cost them $40000 to make a caprice, no where near that and marketing costs of $5000 a unit thats nuts.

You seem to forget how much we get taxed here plus the huge mark ups we have in oz because they believe correctly we are able, eager and willing to pay it.

I was speaking to the asia pacific chairman of gillette a while back and i asked him about the price difference between the price of blades in oz almost $20 for a 4 pack and the price of blades in the Philippines around A50c for a 4 pack and why there is such a huge difference for the exact same product he said "the total cost is around 35c a unit but we price it at what we think the consumer will pay".

A fully built caprice landed in the US would not cost more than $12-$14k per unit TLC.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by bigsta

A fully built caprice landed in the US would not cost more than $12-$14k per unit TLC.

See, now I know those figures are way off. Whilst one fully understands that bulk purchasers like a Holden or Ford pay not even 50% of the price of something you would see in a retail shop (ie for a set of tyres or something), there is no way those costs can be acheived (even if one doesnt allocate a per unit development cost to a car). The info supplied by Toyota's website gives fairly detailed pricing for an export camry (currently about $20,000), and one could assume that would be fairly accurate due to the watchful eye of the taxation department ensuring toyota doesnt export its profits off shore.

So using $20,000 as a base, and assuming the Caprice (even police model) has slightly better under pinnings than a camry, and then add on other anciliary costs (remember toyota exports approx 80,000 cars a year, and has all the systems in place), then its a pretty safe bet that a $26000 Caprice is a loser for every one except the buyer.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bigsta

A fully built caprice landed in the US would not cost more than $12-$14k per unit TLC.

Here's what I think happened with currency shift, all inter-company transfers are in US dollars.
Holden originally floats a business plan for Caprice PPV with a base cost to make and deliver
at around US$18K or AUS$25K when the Aussie was around 70 cents just over two years ago.
Today the dollar is near parity, so Holden still gets US$18K for them but that's now $18K Australian......

This is where currency shift will slice and dice you...

[jpd80]

If Holden are exporting Caprice PPV for 12-14K wouldn't the government
hit them with price transferring to avoid taxation on revenue here?

Didn't Toyota get slammed like this in 2009 copping a huge fine?

[bigsta]

there is no point explaining it further to you.

Holden will do great out of this for years to come and this is good for Australia.

[Brazen]

Truly, truly amzing how cheap cars are over there. Although the great thing about these police sales, is that there is very little marketing spend. The Caprice will struggle price wise until the 3.6 V6 comes online, at the moment its 6 litre only.

Ah well, we'l see what happens I suppose. I think medium term we should see the Aussie dollar getting back into the 80s, the traders are now moving into the Canadian and New Zealand dollars.