Sydney Siege

[Fairlane 500]

I can't believe this is going on in Australia, this guy is well known, I think they should have locked him up a long time ago.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/newthre...=newthread&f=2

[Ibanezteve]

Agreed... I'm all for helping out people in need, by allowing them refugee status and giving them a helping hand in life, but with this animals record he should have been locked up or even deported a long time ago.

[Polyal]

Hmm the other thread was locked so cant see this one having legs.

But...I agree with the above to an extent...if people wish to live here then thats fine but the list this bloke had should have been enough to send him back and tear up the passport.

We really need to sort this issue at a community level, look out for each other, or its just going to go on and on.

[Maka]

The professionalism shown by our Police last night shows why they are the best in the world, we are blessed to have such a effective & well funded police force. I hope the hostages are ok after such a ordeal & condolences to the families of the unlucky ones.

Really should've posted this were it belongs & maybe asked the mods if its possible to start a new thread on this matter.

cheers, Maka

[Fairlane 500]

Originally Posted by Ibanezteve

Agreed... I'm all for helping out people in need, by allowing them refugee status and giving them a helping hand in life, but with this animals record he should have been locked up or even deported a long time ago.

Exactly, he was so well known, I even knew who he was because had seen him on TV.

How did he get bail?

With all the warnings & publicity these days about looking out for any possible signs of terrorism

I can't get my mind around why such a well known obsessive nut job like this was still allowed to be walking around?

I think I can understand why the Police get frustrated with the court system these days

The Police work so hard & have to often risk their lives to get these maggots to court, only to have them let out to do it over again.

[bathurst-racer]

The gunman obviously had "issues". The elephant in the room is the NSW bail law.
How the defending solicitor could argue for bail on such disturbing charges is a question I ask myself nearly every day I'm working at court.

[cheap]

It is called the do-gooder anti-west disease, the socially aware, politically correct, compassionate, try and see it from the gunmans point of view, we bought this on ourselves by backing the USA. We have these people here on AFF.

This cancer is systemic throughout the courts and legal system. Laws have been watered down and burden of proof so high to the extent that the gunman facing 40 sexual assault charges + accessory to murder is allowed bail. He was well know for his hatred of Australia and on the police radar for 7 years.

Multiculturalism is failing, as numerous new-comers have no intention of trying to assimilate into Australia, instead they're trying to convert Australians, Mosques springing up and making our suburbs resemble ghettos of war torn Beirut, Palestine and Damascus.

He probably walked through Sydney CBD wearing his jihad bandana with pride. What is worse is he apparently has 14,000 likes on Facebook! There will be more people liking him now and people will call him a martyr.

No doubt The Greens will want a full inquiry into why he was shot.

Condolences to the families of the innocent people in the cafe.

[Fairlane 500]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Hmm the other thread was locked so cant see this one having legs.

I would like to say I am very sorry to the moderators for starting another thread on something which had been "locked"

before I started this thread I looked for another one on the subject & did not see one & I was unaware that another thread had been locked

so I started this one because I thought it was a topic worthy of discussion.

[BOSS 540]

All I would like to say is thank God (by the looks of it) there weren't any families with kids in there. Prayers to the victims, loved ones.
The ONLY other thing is, the gunman got a bullet.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by cheap

It is called the do-gooder anti-west disease, the socially aware, politically correct, compassionate, try and see it from the gunmans point of view, we bought this on ourselves by backing the USA. We have these people here on AFF.

This cancer is systemic throughout the courts and legal system. Laws have been watered down and burden of proof so high to the extent that the gunman facing 40 sexual assault charges + accessory to murder is allowed bail. He was well know for his hatred of Australia and on the police radar for 7 years.

Multiculturalism is failing, as numerous new-comers have no intention of trying to assimilate into Australia, instead they're trying to convert Australians, Mosques springing up and making our suburbs resemble ghettos of war torn Beirut, Palestine and Damascus.

He probably walked through Sydney CBD wearing his jihad bandana with pride. What is worse is he apparently has 14,000 likes on Facebook! There will be more people liking him now and people will call him a martyr.

No doubt The Greens will want a full inquiry into why he was shot.

Condolences to the families of the innocent people in the cafe.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by BOSS 540

All I would like to say is thank God (by the looks of it) there weren't any families with kids in there. Prayers to the victims, loved ones.
The ONLY other thing is, the gunman got a bullet.

The two innocent people that died could have had kids themselves ?, one was 38 and the other 34 so a very likely chance that they did, how do you think those children would feel right now ?.

[mcflux]

It is called the do-gooder anti-west disease, the socially aware, politically correct, compassionate, try and see it from the gunmans point of view, we bought this on ourselves by backing the USA. We have these people here on AFF.

Where exactly were these (difficult to decipher) views coming from, aside from fabricated within your imagination?

This cancer is systemic throughout the courts and legal system. Laws have been watered down and burden of proof so high to the extent that the gunman facing 40 sexual assault charges + accessory to murder is allowed bail. He was well know for his hatred of Australia and on the police radar for 7 years.

Agreed - our legal system is tied up with outdated laws and procedures that need serious review.

Multiculturalism is failing, as numerous new-comers have no intention of trying to assimilate into Australia, instead they're trying to convert Australians, Mosques springing up and making our suburbs resemble ghettos of war torn Beirut, Palestine and Damascus.

Yeah, those 2% or whatever the figure is of Muslims in Australia will really tip the balance from the >60% who identify as Christian. Mosques as far as the eye can see. Every town I drive through has a church - are you disturbed by this ingrained religious institution or is it just the few (& highly publicised) different-looking places of worship - that worship the same deity - that have popped up... or have previously existed for decades but have been thrust into the spotlight.

He probably walked through Sydney CBD wearing his jihad bandana with pride.

People wear all kinds of things with pride like "**** the Police" or "Learn English or Leave" - it doesn't make it OK but this argument of yours fails as it goes in all directions.

What is worse is he apparently has 14,000 likes on Facebook! There will be more people liking him now and people will call him a martyr.

Agreed - this is a concern.

No doubt The Greens will want a full inquiry into why he was shot.

Why?

Condolences to the families of the innocent people in the cafe.

My sentiments too.

[HULK_I6T]

really sad day in Sydney.

The gunman covered a woman in petrol and set her alight in werrington about a year ago. How he is on the streets is unbeleivable.

[BOSS 540]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

The two innocent people that died could have had kids themselves ?, one was 38 and the other 34 so a very likely chance that they did, how do you think those children would feel right now ?.

Yes, I agree what's your point?
Could have been a lot worse for everyone if there were children directly involved that's all. As a dad, Im relieved they were not.

[snowcone]

Before this thread gets locked for being political, whilst further above a poster comments on what a great job the police did, i can only comment on what a poor job they did.
Whilst they would have been operating under orders from above (trying not to be political) if this was the USA or Russia, that gunman would have been taken ouit in the first hour when he was standing in the window.
Innocent people died because we were slow to react.
That gunman made no attempt to cover his identity and that obviously meant he knew he wasn't going to be walking out of that cafe alive.
His identity was known to the police and his background very early on but still the decision was made to sit on there hands and try and talk him out.
The police needs to wake up and realise that they are not dealing with Neville or Reg from down at the pub anymore.

[2002au]

As kevin bloody Wilson puts it,

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim. True scum of the earth

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by snowcone

be political) if this was the USA or Russia, that gunman would have been taken ouit in the first hour when he was standing in the window.
Innocent people died because we were slow to react.
That gunman made no attempt to cover his identity and that obviously meant he knew he wasn't going to be walking out of that cafe alive.

I have NFI how all the procedures work but I must admit that thought crossed my mind many times.

There were multiple cases where news crews had clear video footage of him crossing the window. They knew he was alone, possible had the chance.

I guess the risk is if they miss, and he survives, then all hostages could be killed?

Got to remember what happens in a video game isnt how it plays out in real life.

[Ibanezteve]

Im sure the vision of him on the news was taken before anyone escaped, so the police wouldn't have known if he was alone or not. I agree it could have turned out a lot better, but on the flip side it could have turned out a lot worse too. Hind site is a curse!

[mcflux]

To those condemning the Police action of wait-&-see - what if he had a "dead man trigger" explosive device in his backpack?

For the "let's shoot him ASAP" scenario: 10 mins into the ordeal, a police sniper takes him out (& probably injures some hostages with glass shards). 10 mins & 1 sec into the ordeal his backpack goes up & everyone inside the café is killed.

Secondly "let's shoot him ASAP" - he goes down without his agenda or demands being addressed - instant martyr & extremist groups gain more strength / sway straying people with claims of massive over-retaliation.

Fools rush in.

Nobody knew how exactly this was going to play out - tragically there were two innocents killed, not the best solution but better than all dead.'

Lastly - gun control FTW

[Polyal]

Gun control FTW Sarcasm?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

To those condemning the Police action of wait-&-see - what if he had a "dead man trigger" explosive device in his backpack?

For the "let's shoot him ASAP" scenario: 10 mins into the ordeal, a police sniper takes him out (& probably injures some hostages with glass shards). 10 mins & 1 sec into the ordeal his backpack goes up & everyone inside the café is killed.

Secondly "let's shoot him ASAP" - he goes down without his agenda or demands being addressed - instant martyr & extremist groups gain more strength / sway straying people with claims of massive over-retaliation.

Fools rush in.

Nobody knew how exactly this was going to play out - tragically there were two innocents killed, not the best solution but better than all dead.'

Agreed. He had initially said he had bombs (planted around Sydney as well on his person) so they couldnt risk if he had a "dead man trigger" or if his accomplices saw him get shot, that they would detonate the other bombs.

[ford71V8]

He's dead. Good.

I feel so sorry for the families involved.
The woman who died had 2 kids..... just shocking to think this is where we are at.

[BENT_8]

This day will be remembered as the day Australia changed forever.

Sadly I believe this will be just the beginning.

RIP.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Gun control FTW Sarcasm?

Not sarcasm. He didn't have an assault rifle as he probably couldn't get his hands on one due to our restrictions.

[poppa smurf]

terrible terrible thing to have landed on our shores.

I guess if we open ourselves up to the world then we should not be surprised when the world comes in, along with all its problems.

surely there are better ways?????

my condolences are with the ones who were taken for no good reason.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

Not sarcasm. He didn't have an assault rifle as he probably couldn't get his hands on one due to our restrictions.

Ok ah yes I fully agree! My meter was off....if any of these loners were properly connected I hope they dont get their hands on anything even remotely automatic.

[aussiblue]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim. True scum of the earth

Simply not true. This is a bit dated but it illustrates the point:

According to the European Police Office (Europol) in 2006 “There were 498 incidents in eleven EU countries in 2005 labelled as “terrorist attacks.” The Basque separatist group ETA committed the most (136 terrorist attacks) and was responsible for the only deadly attack, killing two in Madrid. The remaining 497 fortunately cost no human lives.” Muslims only carried out one out of the 498 terrorist attacks in the European Union in 2006. Full report

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam a Hindu separatist group in Sri Lanka “had carried out more suicide bombings than any other organization on the face of the earth. According to the experts at Janes securities, between 1980 to 2000, LTTE had carried out a total of 168 suicide attacks on civilians and military targets. The number of suicide attacks easily exceeded the combined total of Hizbullah and Hamas suicide attacks carried out during the same period”

“Of all the religious groups, Muslim Americans have the lowest crime rate, and that prior to the first WTC attack, there was no violence directed against the western culture by its members. A survey of 175 recorded incidents of terrorism in the US from January 1982 to January 1996 showed that of these: 77 were committed by Christian Puerto Rican nationalists, 31 were the work of Christian animal rights and Christian environmental groups, 23 were blamed on Christian left wing organizations, 18 were committed by what the FBI called “Jewish extremists” and 12 were by Christian anti-Castro Cubans. The total number committed by Arabs or Muslims over a period of 14 years was 3 (three).[2]” Muslim Americans: Patriotic or Fifth Columnist?, Habib Siddiqui

The U.S. Department of Justice Report on Terrorism 2002 to 2005 also lists incidents from 1980 to 2005 and clearly shows that most terrorist incidents were not carried out by Muslims.

An MPAC study on domestic terrorism shows that - Since Obama’s election on November 4, 2008 there have been 25 terror plots by non-Muslim domestic extremists and 9 plots by Muslim domestic and international extremists.

In Europe the number of arrests connected to terrorism doubled in the European Union in 2007, while the overwhelming majority of attacks carried out in its territory were linked to separatism, the EU’s police office, Europol, said in a report released by Europol.

The FBI has a chronological list of all terror attacks on US soil from 1980 to 2005, and - this is the important bit - only 6% of the attacks involved Islamist extremism. That means that here in the United States, a whopping 94% of known terrorists are not Muslim. Europol, the European Union’s criminal intelligence agency, posts a similar list each year entitled the “EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report.” The numbers in Europe are there are even more stark, with terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims accounting for only 0.4% of terror plots in the EU from 2006-2008. The most recent report, when issued early next year, will include the details from this summer’s horrific attack in Norway, carried out by a man “calling for a Christian war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination.”

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a list entitled: Terror from the Right: 75 plots, conspiracies and racist rampages since Oklahoma City which also shows that not all terrorists are Muslims. The SPLC also has a list of “Patriot” groups active in the U.S. during 2009 including 127 militias (marked with an asterisk).

Another report from the FBI makes a lot of interesting points. Here are a few highlights:


APPROXIMATELY 641 terrorist incidents occurred in the United States between 1971 and June 1975. Among these attacks were 166 bombings, 120 fire bombings, and 118 shootings. (During the first six months of 1975 alone, 24 attacks occurred in California, 12 took place in New York, and 11 were directed at targets on the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.) Some of these attacks were carried out by extremist ethnic groups and international terrorists. But the vast majority were attributed to leftwing/antiwar extremists, many operating within such organizations as the Weather Underground, Armed Forces of Puerto Rican Liberation (FALN), the Black Liberation Army, and the Symbionese Liberation Army. p35

WAVES in domestic terrorist activity are not absolute or all encompassing. During the 1970s and early 1980s, at the height of violent antiwar/left-wing activism, there were dozens of terrorist attacks carried out by Jewish extremist groups (such as the Jewish Defense League and the United Jewish Underground) and other extremist ethnic groups (such as the Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide). There were also sporadic incidents involving special interest groups supporting nuclear disarmament and other causes. During the 1990s, when antigovernment right-wing groups became a primary counterterrorism focus, left-wing extremist Puerto Rican separatists continued to conduct the majority of successful terrorist attacks in the United States–primarily on the island of Puerto Rico. (The majority of terrorist acts prevented by law enforcement during the decade, however, were being planned by antigovernment right-wing terrorists–underscoring the potential threat posed by this element.) p 37 to 38

But a study of the past reveals some potentially helpful patterns. Violent domestic extremism in the United States has been closely linked to contemporary political/social concerns. In each of the three identifiable waves, violent extremism has represented a small, radicalized component of broad-based, largely peaceful movements sharing similar concerns. With regard to left- and right-wing terrorism, aggressive prosecution of group leaders, violent offenders, and those plotting attacks contributed significantly to limiting the overall threat posed by groups with these orientations. p 38

The abilities to spread propaganda and recruit new members are important to the long-term viability of extremist movements. Leftist radical movements of the 1970 and early 1980s conducted much of their propaganda and recruiting through lectures and the distribution of handbills. While right-wing groups in the 1980s and 1990s began to exploit the Internet and cable access programming to spread their views, they largely depended on videotapes and books to attract new adherents to their antigovernment, race-supremacist ideologies. By contrast, animal rights and environmental extremists rely on sophisticated computer capabilities to exploit the communications potential of the Internet to disseminate propaganda, provide information updates to adherents, recruit new members, and make claims of responsibility for terrorist activities and acts of vandalism. The communications opportunities afforded by the World Wide Web can be expected to have a far-reaching impact on the ability of contemporary extremist groups to perpetuate propaganda and attract new members. p 38

CONCLUSION - BROAD TRENDS in domestic terrorism can be identified throughout the past four decades. These trends demonstrate the fluidity of causes that can inspire acts of terrorism within a culture. A society as large, diverse, and complex as the United States can be expected to continue to yield divergent concerns and beliefs among groups and individuals who view extreme actions as the most effective means to convey their sentiments. An appreciation of the largescale shifts in terrorist trends may assist law enforcement in understanding general patterns in the threat posed by domestic extremists over several decades. The emerging challenges confronting the law enforcement community underscore more than ever the importance of interagency cooperation, effective analysis, and aggressive investigation to counter these threats. p 40

“Despite last year’s spike in the number of terrorism cases involving American Muslims, fears of growing radicalization in the American Muslim community may be greatly exaggerated, according to a new study. Researchers at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sais in 2010 that while homegrown Islamic terrorism is a serious issue, it remains a limited problem.” According to Time Read the full report Anti-Terror Lessons of Muslim-Americans

Time magazine released a lengthy study in 2010 of The Secret World of Extreme Militias by Barton Gellman which discusses how widespread this phenomenon of right wing violence has become in the U.S.

And no; I am not an apologist for Islamic extremists; they must be condemned. But let's not make this tragic incident, initiated by one nutter, an excuse to forego tolerance and forget the Oz tradition of "fair go" and instead encourage bigoted views.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Whoever allowed him to walk the street on bail will take their feelings of guilt to their grave.

If this doesn't give the decision makers a wake up call then what the hell will?

Judging by his many past actions, surly there could have been something in the anti terrorism laws to put him behind bars where he belongs?

The softly softly approach isn't working. You openly tell everyone how much you hate this place and invoke and condone violence against those who don't agree with your ideology then buy a one way ticket out and hand in your passport at customs.

Should be worded into the law.

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by 2002au

As kevin bloody Wilson puts it,

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslim. True scum of the earth

What a disgraceful contribution.

[Polyal]

Obviously there will not be a system that will capture every action of a nutter, but i wonder if you could employ some kind of points system...hit x points and see you later.

That can be anything minor, to death letters to fallen soldiers family (seriously WTF).