3 more young lives lost....

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by ST

...Are you serious?

I read your post and I am completely aware you said you felt sorry for the families, but you are very publicly voicing that you believed ALL 3 of the people involved were 'would be murderers' and deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

I'm not even going to answer the last part of your post as it is beyond ridiculous and you have some serious moral issues if you believe in everything you are posting in this thread.

You make good points. I guess I'm just angry at lives lost for no reason. I have had family members killed in this way and it is such a waste. When that happens to you, it is hard to be objective in these cases when you first hear about it in the news

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Well call it sick , twisted and morbid all you like but I actually just went down and checked out the scene of the crash.
First thing he may or may not have been driving the car legally. There is still enough time overlap from when the laws come in for someone who was slow advancing to their next stage of their licence to be legally allowed to drive one.
Second by the looks of it he didnt actually hit the pole all that hard. There is no skid marks on the road leading to the impact site , no yellow paint on the road from where the accident investigation have done their thing. The pole is approximately 150mm from the gutter right next to the 3rd lane from the highway. If you are not careful in a truck you can actually clip your mirrors on the poles on the way past so it would take stuff all the actually hit one head on as the driver did. The poles are so close to the road as they were put in when the original 2 lane highway was there and over the years the highway has been widened bringing it close to the poles , unfortunately there is no room due to the houses behind to move the poles back further.
The pole has not been damaged or replaced. It has actually even moved very little in the ground. From working with power poles in my job I know it doesnt take much of an impact to move a pole , especially with all the wet weather in the area over the weekend.
Where it happened the road is not in the greatest condition and yes in very heavy rain water does back up over the lanes. We have had very heavy rain in the last couple of days. It was pouring at the time of the accident.
It may have just been a accident.
The legal speed limit on the stretch of road concerned is 80km/h.
The driver may have actually been doing the speed limit (which would be a mistake in the conditions but is perfectly legal) and hit water banked up on the road and aquaplaned. The pole is right on the gutter and their is nowhere else to go with trees etc there.
More will obviously be known once the investigations have been carried out but from the looks of it , I would actually doubt they were going that fast , after looking atthe damage in the area and from knowing the area since I was a kid (my grandparents lived 5 minutes from where it happened) and knowing that the water does indeed bank up , it could well have just been a tragic accident , that a 40 years old family man coming home from work in his Tarago could of just as easily had.
More will obviously come out about it once the investigations are done but it may not be time to burn people at the stake yet..............

Some good points there but one problem, you do not pull 3 dead out of a modern large car that has "not hit the pole that hard". Do not let marks on a pole or amount it moved fool you, I have been to cars torn in two and the pole still standing. Thats not experience making the pole either.

[Rangas GTP]

When I was in year 10 some 25 years ago religion at my school was a compulsory subject. We use to ago away on retreats etc but the ONE outing we had that has stayed with me till this day was a visit to Glebe Coroners Court. At that age being taken to a morgue and a complete guided tour through the premises shocks you sensless. I witnessed deceased young kids and adults having all there orrifices sewn up and then transported to the freezers to live autopsies. Seeing a body removed from the freezer ready to go under the knife was the most chilling experience.
On jumping back onto the school bus the first song that was played was Billy Idols Eyes without a face, needless to say whenever i hear that song i cringe and have an instant flash back.
At that age true I could not believe they would allow us to see such a thing but shock value has its merits.
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, PEOPLE DIE.

[Rodp]

I've only read the first page but seems a case of people making judgement before they even read the article.

Apparently doing the speed limit and aquaplaned. Seems to me to be a case of in-experienced driver in the wet and taking the speed limit as gospel. Sign says 80 so I'm safe doing 80 (regardless of the conditions).

[geckoGT]

Having reviewed the video, the damage on the car suggests that either it was traveling at a speed much higher then 80 km/h or there was a major structural weakness, I know which is more likely.

[gergless]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

There is still enough time overlap from when the laws come in for someone who was slow advancing to their next stage of their licence to be legally allowed to drive one.

The driver was 15 years old when the laws came in.

[chrisfpv]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Restricted vehicles should not just be illegal to drive but illegal to own until the restriction period ends.
Why is someone legally sold a vehicle they may not drive ?

I've always thought that they're not?

I remember back a couple of months ago when a mate of mine was looking for a new car. He was on his P plates and was looking at the Ford Focus XR5 Turbos on display at our local Ford Dealership.

The dealer came up to us, started talking about the car and when he realised my mate was on his P's, he informed him that he wouldn't let him take it for a test drive, or purchase the vehicle.

Yet on the other hand, I have a friend who drives a VY SS ute who is on red P plates and had his father go down to the dealership and purchase it.

[gergless]

Originally Posted by XR

I've always thought that they're not?

I remember back a couple of months ago when a mate of mine was looking for a new car. He was on his P plates and was looking at the Ford Focus XR5 Turbos on display at our local Ford Dealership.

The dealer came up to us, started talking about the car and when he realised my mate was on his P's, he informed him that he wouldn't let him take it for a test drive, or purchase the vehicle.

Some dealers are scared about being liable if something goes wrong. The RTA will let them register anything in their name atm.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR

I've always thought that they're not?

I remember back a couple of months ago when a mate of mine was looking for a new car. He was on his P plates and was looking at the Ford Focus XR5 Turbos on display at our local Ford Dealership.

The dealer came up to us, started talking about the car and when he realised my mate was on his P's, he informed him that he wouldn't let him take it for a test drive, or purchase the vehicle.

Yet on the other hand, I have a friend who drives a VY SS ute who is on red P plates and had his father go down to the dealership and purchase it.

I was looking at a G220 Fairlane a few times before I bought my Fiesta and the salesman said to me "Its a pretty powerful car, you won't be able to legally drive it". I think most just want the sale out of you instead of worrying if you can drive it or not, you could legislate against that easily.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by gergless

Some dealers are scared about being liable if something goes wrong. The RTA will let them register anything in their name atm.

Assuming most buy secondhand, whats to stop anyone buying from a private seller ?
Traffic authorities should have bells ringing on their computers when they try to register the car when presenting a restricted licence.

[geckoGT]

Your mention of the lack of yellow markings, what is that supposed to mean? Are you saying there were not really 3 people killed (any fatal accident automatically involves forensic crash investigation). I would suggest it only means that the investigators did not deem markings necessary.

Also, if you are experienced in vehicle crashes you would realise that there are often no skid marks. This is normally because no brakes were involved (asleep at the wheel), the vehicle was accelerating (hooning), the tyres were not in contact with the road surface (airborne, aqua planing) or the marks have washed away in heavy rain. Many of these points actually point to excessive speed for the conditions. The simple fact is if correct speed for the conditions was used then,
a) there would not be the extent of the damage to the car there is and
b) the car would not have left the road

I have seen many serious crash scenes the next day after the event and it is amazing how the remaining evidence does not paint the picture of what was there.

But you are right, what would we know, we will wait for the investigation.

[ST]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

You make good points. I guess I'm just angry at lives lost for no reason. I have had family members killed in this way and it is such a waste. When that happens to you, it is hard to be objective in these cases when you first hear about it in the news

I can definitely understand that, it is extremely frusrating especially when such devastating losses are easily avoidable. Jumping to conclusions and condemning all involved won't help anyone, all we can really do is hope others learn from this and give suggestions to prevent future occurences.

[MAV50L]

Well did anyone just watch it on the news and see what the copper had to say?
No evidence of street racing. Was travelling too fast for the conditions but no evidence of being over the speed limit .
A mistake anyone could make , obviously not as much chance of it with more driving experience under your belt.
Could of made the same mistake in a Skoda..................
Very easy for people to be the judge , jury and executioner behind a keyboard.

[TUF_302]

Very sad news...Again, but what can we do, no matter what the government does it still happens, and it will keep hapening sadly!

[|||]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Well did anyone just watch it on the news and see what the copper had to say?
No evidence of street racing. Was travelling too fast for the conditions but no evidence of being over the speed limit .
A mistake anyone could make , obviously not as much chance of it with more driving experience under your belt.
Could of made the same mistake in a Skoda..................
Very easy for people to be the judge , jury and executioner behind a keyboard.

That is a very interesting response from the police. It is a terrible shame for these young people to suffer this fate. I hope this serves as a warning to all drivers no matter their age or type of car they are driving to take care in testing conditions.

[atec77]

Originally Posted by LOWBA6

Its sad to hear of young lives being lost, but this is becoming a weekly occurance.... I just wish people would take a little more care on the road

The ratio of deaths per thousand has not altered in years yet the reporting is more inflamatory and certainly the roads are not being maintained as they should
Several factors in these smashes , incorrect car ( but that's not the main reason) a short driving time and persons being taught to pass the test and not drive , plus the roads are poorly maintained . It all costs money and time so to avoid actually fixing things the pollies point and blame whilst pocketing the proceeds and diverting the finds into other pet avenues
Remember these things when you vote

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Well did anyone just watch it on the news and see what the copper had to say?
No evidence of street racing. Was travelling too fast for the conditions but no evidence of being over the speed limit .
A mistake anyone could make , obviously not as much chance of it with more driving experience under your belt.
Could of made the same mistake in a Skoda..................
Very easy for people to be the judge , jury and executioner behind a keyboard.

good post, in bold is the best KEY point out of this entire thread.

[Matt P]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Exactly... looking at the damage its safe to say they we're travelling pretty quickly, the media has reserved any judgement on this so far, obviously waiting for police reports to emerge.
My guess is wet road, traction control turned off, too much right foot, too little experience, too little brain power.. game over..

Tractoin control on wont save you when you are travelling too fast for conditions once the rear reaches the limit of adheasion T/C will do nothing its even worse on as when you try and power out the Rear wheels get no drive as T/C is going off.

The fact is and you can all shoot me for this a XR6T, XR8 SS dunny door are all TOO much car for P platers. I learnt to drive in 68 rear drive alfa with twin webbers and I don't know about 70kwt and that got me into enough trouble 240kw is just too much for someone with that little expreriance. If I had owned a XR6T when I was on my P's I would have lasted a week and I think alot of us here would have gone the same way. The limit in an alfa is a whole lot less than an XR6T and it still got me in trouble.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Matt P

Tractoin control on wont save you when you are travelling too fast for conditions once the rear reaches the limit of adheasion T/C will do nothing its even worse on as when you try and power out the Rear wheels get no drive as T/C is going off.

The fact is and you can all shoot me for this a XR6T, XR8 SS dunny door are all TOO much car for P platers. I learnt to drive in 68 rear drive alfa with twin webbers and I don't know about 70kwt and that got me into enough trouble 240kw is just too much for someone with that little expreriance. If I had owned a XR6T when I was on my P's I would have lasted a week and I think alot of us here would have gone the same way. The limit in an alfa is a whole lot less than an XR6T and it still got me in trouble.

Without doubt, but traction control WILL help if you accelerate too quickly for the conditions and avaliable traction...

A very sad end to what was proably a bit of fun, sadly id say a combination of too much power/speed for the conditions, inexperience, a lack of good mature judgement and self control cost them the ultimate price.....

[MAV50L]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Without doubt, but traction control WILL help if you accelerate too quickly for the conditions and avaliable traction...

A very sad end to what was proably a bit of fun, sadly id say a combination of too much power/speed for the conditions, inexperience, a lack of good mature judgement and self control cost them the ultimate price.....

Yes they were on their way home from a night out. Something we have all done before.
It was never mentioned by the police as too much power had anything to do with it. If it did it would of been said.
The only part of what YOU believe 4vman that I will agree with is the inexperience bit. We have not had rain in Western Sydney like we had last night in years. Yes the driver should of backed off in the bad conditions but that can also be a big call there as there are always trucks and other vehicles screaming along that road that would slam you , especially in bad weather.
Maybe the driver thought he would be safer trying to sit with the traffic. Yes even at 3am the Great Western Highway has traffic.
A lackof good mature judgement and self control has squat to do with it from what can be seen.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

A lackof good mature judgement and self control has squat to do with it from what can be seen.

Good mature judgement and self control would have most likely meant 3 loved ones sitting at home tonight watching TV....

[Pinch]

While driving this weekend (1300km) round trip up the Pacific Highway Syd>Coffs>Syd I saw plenty of p-platers doing the right thing. I saw some driving really nice XR6's (hope they werent de-badged) on the way up, and saw them again on the way back. Both times sitting at their limit (100 in 110) and with plenty of distances etc. All the p-platers I saw were actually all driving really well.

Everyone else was too, even though we went through a couple of really torrential showers. Everyone seemed to have the right lights on and were driving to the conditions, and maintaining safe gaps and keeping left. Even on the F3 Sydney bound on a Sunday arvo. Amazing.

Hope it wasn't an abberation, or the fact I was driving a new black Statesman.

Maybe there is hope. While these incidents are tragedies in their own right, the driving quality I saw this weekend was far better than which I had experienced in any trip in the past few years. Pity the road is still crap north of Bulledelah.

[MAV50L]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Good mature judgement and self control would have most likely meant 3 loved ones sitting at home tonight watching TV....

A lack of rain and better luck would have most likely done the same.
This is really going no where. People will have their views and other people will disagree.
Im not going to bother going any further on this...there is simply no point.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Yes they were on their way home from a night out. Something we have all done before.
It was never mentioned by the police as too much power had anything to do with it. If it did it would of been said.
The only part of what YOU believe 4vman that I will agree with is the inexperience bit. We have not had rain in Western Sydney like we had last night in years. Yes the driver should of backed off in the bad conditions but that can also be a big call there as there are always trucks and other vehicles screaming along that road that would slam you , especially in bad weather.
Maybe the driver thought he would be safer trying to sit with the traffic. Yes even at 3am the Great Western Highway has traffic.
A lackof good mature judgement and self control has squat to do with it from what can be seen.

If that is the case, then the people in question arent the only ones with a lack of good mature judgement. A fine example of this scenario is a few years back, i traverse a highway 40mins to work everyday. One day fog had fallen so badly that visiblity was down to around 10-20 metres. I had only just recevied my p license and was travelling in my POS, non traction control, non ABS, non DSC 1990 Magna. I travelled at around 70kmph opposed to the posted limit of 100. Road was dry as any other day. I did not see the taillights of a stopped vehicle in front of me till around 20m, I had to direct the car onto the median grass strip to avoid rear ending them. Once I regained composure, I noticed traffic was being directed. An accident had occured on a cross intersection, where a young fella in a twisted pile of metal resembling an ED XR6 was hanging out of the drivers side. Unconscious with his body mangled and blood pouring out of him. It is still the most horrifying thing I have ever seen. I later discovered that he was attempting to cross the intersection, when a semi travelling the speed limit collided with him.

My point is, is that not driving to the conditions is VERY dangerous. And nobody could ever help the situation by assuming other vehicles are doing that, so feeling they ought to do the same. If you drive like that in those conditions just because everyone else does, youre signing your life away.

[MAV50L]

Yep I totally agree with you there. Not driving to the conditions is dangerous which has only gone to prove it with the result.
It was a major screw up , but one any person could honestly make.
Crucifying the guy because he was a P plater and driving a XR6 like has been doen here is not exactly fair but.
If it was a 50 years old woman in a Toyota Starlet that did the exact same thing it would be a tragic accident.
Because he was a younger guy in a XR6 it was an accident that was expected.
People just need to stop the stereo typing that goes on so often now days.
Maybe it is time we stop speaking ill of the dead which is what is happening in this thread?

[4Vman]

Untill people learn to rationalise and accept these events are NOT accidents at all but rather avoidable mistakes or acts of immaturity, selfishness or just stupidity they will keep happening...

Denial; an unconscious thought process whereby one allays anxiety by refusing to acknowledge the existence of certain unpleasant aspects of external reality

[UNR8D]

every time its a 50-70yo who mistakes the accelerator for the brake its a tragic accident and 5th page news, P plater its automaticly a HOON and front page news with everyone out in vigilantes to get justice, the world is very very screwed up.

[UNR8D]

Denial; an unconscious thought process whereby one allays anxiety by refusing to acknowledge the existence of certain unpleasant aspects of external reality

take your own advice.

[MAV50L]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

every time its a 50-70yo who mistakes the accelerator for the brake its a tragic accident and 5th page news, P plater its automaticly a HOON and front page news with everyone out in vigilantes to get justice, the world is very very screwed up.

Thankyou.
This is exactly my point!
The world is slowing being programmed to what the media want people to believe.
Nowdays some of the conspiricy theories that have floated around for years dont seem so far fetched anymore....

[wulos]

Seriously people - Have we not seen this type of accident many MANY times before?
Along with the tragic loss of life, & the inevitable misguided sensationalist press reports, these events (and threads) always end up going into a quick downward spiral.
I suppose members will learn how to get along with one another in threads like this just as soon as crashes like this stop happening.