MOTOR Feb 2015: XR8 vs SSV Redline + XR6T vs SS

[Sioso]

The tolerances in these cars aren't that good to have identical 80-120km/h times in either Fords or Holdens.

There have always been cars screwed together a little better or worse than others.

Pick another two Commodores and it could easily be the other way around.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

Winton is not a fast circuit, there no 'big' straights. Tander in a VE2 GTS couldn't even hit 180kph. I think you need to rethink your assumptions about Winton.

I did three brake tests in the FGX XR8 down Winton's straight a few weeks ago. From standing start to stop was doing 175kph. A couple of people saw 180kph.

Given this was done without any corner exit speed 180+ should have been done easily by Tander.

[701let]

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

Is this thread only about performance?

I think its safe to say the xr8/xr6t have the ss/ss redline covered

Those who have driven the FGX xr8, when you jumped in did you have a look at the big panel of plastic around the gear selector? It's huge, the finish is in a cheap unfinished plastic look and not a button in sight? In a car for 2015 I find it extraordinary..

Sure the b series don't have any buttons either in that area but it's disguised a hell of a lot better with the zf panel larger in b series and the change of colour on the surround.. It's also not so large and flat an area like FGX

Have a look at the FGX in that area, deplorable

Look at the ss redline and you won't see that sort of finish. Look at an Audi or Mercedes in that area, buttons and knobs everywhere in the area your hands are likely to rest but in 2015 ford gives a plane Jane bare panel in a unfinished plastic look... I was completely stunned.

I was sitting there thinking does this look like $60k worth?

Originally Posted by kypez

To be fair, it's a different price point and thus different buyer (as you pointed out). GT vs HSV is fair but you are right, more HSV fans in this country. See my earlier example of iPhone...

Also remember the SS can be had for around $40k. That's a lot cheaper than the XR8 so it will continue to outsell the XR8. Would be interesting to see SSV Redline vs XR8 in 2015.

Mate judging by the lap times of that ssv redline I wouldn't rule the SS out performance wise. Only performance area it is behind in is in a straight line

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Actually was reading an article about Craig Lowndes and this very topic was covered.

“My driving style comes from my open wheel background,” Lowndes said.

“It is more about mid-corner speed and that is how I drive. It has helped at times and it has also hindered.” Lowndes revealed the biggest challenge of his career was moving to the Dunlop tyre after spending years on the mid-corner friendly Bridgestone. “That was tough when Dunlop came in as the control tyre. I had to learn to drive to the tyre. Before that, on the Bridgestone, it suited my style with the mid-corner speed and grip.

“The Dunlop was more about braking and accelerating. That was a huge change in my style and approach to racing.”

Just FYI - those aren't the tyres the road going cars ran back then nor run now.

Having (comparatively) insufficient grip stock is a lot like having (comparatively) insufficient power stock. Stock is stock.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by arronm

I cant even sneeze in .13 seconds. Maybe their timing equipment isn't accurate down to 100 milliseconds

MOTOR have been using the same Racelogic GPS timing gear that I have. It defaults to the nearest one hundredth of a second and when I've checked it's distance measurement on a number of occasions, it's been within 1/3 of one percent of the true distance.

Also at WSID it's time measurement from 60 feet to the end of the quarter was within 1 hundredth of a second of the track timing (which shows times to the nearest thousandth of a second) in run 1, and in runs 2 and 3 it was around 3 hundredths of a second pessimistic, in other words the car was fractionally faster than the Performance Box said it was.

I'd certainly expect their rolling 80 to 120 times to be either spot on, or no more than 1 or 2 hundredths on either side of the exact figure.

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Just FYI - those aren't the tyres the road going cars ran back then nor run now.

Having (comparatively) insufficient grip stock is a lot like having (comparatively) insufficient power stock. Stock is stock.

Are you sure I could've sworn v8 super car tyres were used on road going cars (/sarcasm). The quote was purely to illustrate the difference a tyre can make.

To me changing a tyre which is a consumable is not the same as changing an engine, but each to their own.

[HULK_I6T]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Not enough knobs to play with down there hey Hulk.....

While your typical SSV owner fumbles for the right launch mode and accidentally engages the electic handbrake, the XR8 will half way down the drag strip !

actually no knobs at all!! None!

Its like going out on the town and everything is closed for the night

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

actually no knobs at all!! None!

Its like going out on the town and everything is closed for the night

How devastating for you !

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Given this was done without any corner exit speed 180+ should have been done easily by Tander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GmTothGkqc

[701let]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Are you sure I could've sworn v8 super car tyres were used on road going cars (/sarcasm). The quote was purely to illustrate the difference a tyre can make.

To me changing a tyre which is a consumable is not the same as changing an engine, but each to their own.

A set of potenzas will cost about $2000-$2400 with alignment. You can drive in drive out at Hi torque and get a cam package for your ssv for $2600 - $2800 inc Otr.

Stock is stock mate too many variables otherwise

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by 701let

A set of potenzas will cost about $2000-$2400 with alignment. You can drive in drive out at Hi torque and get a cam package for your ssv for $2600 - $2800 inc Otr.

Stock is stock mate too many variables otherwise

In your opinion, in my opinion tyres are a consumable that once used are replaced with whatever suits. I don't disagree with you having that view, I simply don't share it.

Edit: the guy buying the cams will be out 4k when he buys his replacement tyres, the guy only replacing his tyres is still only out 2k as well just FYI...

[Sioso]

Only a couple of apex speeds mentioned.

Turn 4 apex speed:
SSV-R - 88.14km/h
SS - 85.93km/h
XR6T - 84.68km/h
XR8 - 84.40km/h

Turn 9 apex speed:
XR6T - 54.91km/h
SS - 54.66km/h
SSV-R - 54.50km/h
XR8 - 52.96km/h

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by 701let

A set of potenzas will cost about $2000-$2400 with alignment. You can drive in drive out at Hi torque and get a cam package for your ssv for $2600 - $2800 inc Otr.

Stock is stock mate too many variables otherwise

Not quite the same... putting stickier tyres on the XR8 means it can put down the available power better to improve performance/handling.

Like has been said, it's a consumable product like getting better brake pads or filling the tank with 100 octane.

Comparing that to getting cams for an SSV is basically an aftermarket mod which boosts top end power but also voids your engine warranty in most cases.

[arronm]

More time is made up in the fast corners if a high corner speed can be maintained.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Not quite the same... putting stickier tyres on the XR8 means it can put down the available power better to improve performance/handling.

Oh, I see - it improves performance, whereas cam and OTR does what exactly?

Suspension components wear out too - why not fit stickier tyres and also shockworks suspension and aftermarket bushes etc to further improve the performance and handling of the "stock" Falcon. Surely bushes are a consumable.

Don't see anyone disputing XR8 is faster in a straight line - seems to be commonly accepted, and the timed runs support this.

What appears to be in dispute is whether the Commodore is better when it comes to handling, braking, putting its power down, etc, which is what the lap times around Winton seem to indicate.

Some seem to think it is purely a matter of tyres and would like a comparison where they both run the same tyres - but if the only "stock-maintaining-modification" was fitting better tyres to the Falcon wouldn't the Falcon then need to smash the Redline's laptime given its power advantage? Wouldn't the true test be same tyres and have them also run the same power too, so the only variables are suspension and chassis?

Think I am starting to understand why Territory is a Falcon wagon but a Commodore ute is not a Commodore.

Holden put better quality tyres on as stock items to improve handling and ability to put power down - it is one area they have an advantage. Why does that advantage need to be removed because Ford do not do the same even though they have every opportunity to? FPR had the wider R-Spec rear wheel tyre/package to improve over the 'standard' GT...if you wanted to compare the performance of a 'standard' GT to the performance of an R-Spec do you need to use same tyres on each? No, because the wider rears is one of the advantages that makes the R-Spec an R-Spec.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Oh, I see - it improves performance, whereas cam and OTR does what exactly?

Suspension components wear out too - why not fit stickier tyres and also shockworks suspension and aftermarket bushes etc to further improve the performance and handling of the "stock" Falcon. Surely bushes are a consumable.

Don't see anyone disputing XR8 is faster in a straight line - seems to be commonly accepted, and the timed runs support this.

What appears to be in dispute is whether the Commodore is better when it comes to handling, braking, putting its power down, etc, which is what the lap times around Winton seem to indicate.

Some seem to think it is purely a matter of tyres and would like a comparison where they both run the same tyres - but if the only "stock-maintaining-modification" was fitting better tyres to the Falcon wouldn't the Falcon then need to smash the Redline's laptime given its power advantage? Wouldn't the true test be same tyres and have them also run the same power too, so the only variables are suspension and chassis?

Think I am starting to understand why Territory is a Falcon wagon but a Commodore ute is not a Commodore.

You're missing my point... what I'm saying is that changing the brand of tyre is not the same as fitting cams to your engine...

Sure, suspension components wear out too but that usually takes a few years of heavy use, unlike tyres which can be "worn out" in 10min if the driver feels like doing an extended burnout.

SSV has track ready suspension and tyres but lacks in the power dept while the XR8 has 500hp but lacks the grip to put that power to good use.

If both cars had the same power output, tyre selection will have little effect on track times and cams would be the way to go.

Bottom line is, the XR8 needs better rubber to reach it's true potential.

[kypez]

The Dunlops on the GTF got to 46 PSI starting from 38 when cold at the North Circuit at SMP. Anyone who knows that track knows that thats a huge increase! I dropped them down to 39 PSI HOT and the car just transformed! I was 3 seconds a lap quicker! Thats a huge gain! Winton will see the tyre pressures get even higher! I wouldnt be surprised if the Dunlops got to close to 50 PSI after 2 laps. Would have handled like a dog!

I doubt the muppets doing these tests take the time to check these things. I didnt see it being done or mentioned in the other test.

[graphicgoose]

To be fair though, they probably didn't check those things with the Holdens either...

[kypez]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

To be fair though, they probably didn't check those things with the Holdens either...

Yes, but the wrong pressures will affect the XR8 more with the higher weight and power and an already lesser tyre.

[graphicgoose]

You make it sound like a needy girlfriend...way too much effort for the momentary reward when things are all ok.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

You make it sound like a needy girlfriend...way too much effort for the momentary reward when things are all ok.

Sure... I prefer the girl who's hard to get rather than the town bicycle...

[Maka]

Originally Posted by kypez

Sure... I prefer the girl who's hard to get rather than the town bicycle...

That's it buddy!

Ford really should've put better tires on the last XR8, no if's or but's hey!

cheer's, Maka

[Windsor220]

Would be interesting to see how both cars performed if you swapped engines. Could the VF handle the same with more weight in the front and faster entry speeds?

[graphicgoose]

Originally Posted by kypez

Sure... I prefer the girl who's hard to get rather than the town bicycle...

Touche', but they're as easy as each other to get, just that one's high maintenance once she's pulled you in...The other is easy to live with, isn't needy and doesn't require your full attention to make the relationship work. High maintenance chicks ain't worth the hassle most of the time.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Touche', but they're as easy as each other to get, just that one's high maintenance once she's pulled you in...The other is easy to live with, isn't needy and doesn't require your full attention to make the relationship work. High maintenance chicks ain't worth the hassle most of the time.

I guess we are different that way... I love the challenge! Never wanted to settle in life... never will...

[graphicgoose]

Haha fair enough. Different strokes and all that...

[SensationFG8]

The high maintenance ones almost always look better too ;)

That's why they're high maintenance.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

The high maintenance ones almost always look better too ;)

That's why they're high maintenance.

Well, you cant not have something special about you and be high maintenance!

[Iggle Piggle]

When the tyres on a press car are shagged, why do they fit a new set of the OEM tyres? Why don't they fit stickier tyres before handing the cars back to the press for evaluations of stock performance?

I know tyres are consumable and can be replaced with whatever suits the owner, but why are we assuming the owner of the Falcon stumps up more coin for some decent quality tyres?

Why don't we assume he/she is a tight **** who replaces their OEM Dunlops with the cheapest tyres they can get off eBay that have a tread pattern shaped like chicken-in-a-biscuit?

Or would it be best if we assume the Ford guy fits Nittos and the Holden guy fits retreads?

We don't know who will fit what to which car for whatever reason in the future, so maybe the easiest way is to continue to compare the cars in stock factory trim.

I agree tyres are consumable and are an easy fix - but isn't that the point, that some feel they need to "fix" the stock grip levels of the XR8 (just as some feel they need to "fix" the stock power output of their SS/SSV/Redline)?

Some things might be easier to "fix" than others, but is that justification to change OEM equipment on only one vehicle to address its (perceived) shortcomings while leaving the other completely stock?

For the record, I don't think the Redline is slow but I don't think it has the straight line speed of the XR8. Likewise, I don't think the XR8 is an ill-handling no brakes bucket, but I don't think it handles or brakes as good as the Redline. Just because each car has shortcomings when compared to the other does not mean each car sucks in that area - it just means the other car does that particular thing better. Something that is great is great...compare it to something that is exceptional and it will lose the comparison, but that does not mean it is no longer great.

[duaned]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Would be interesting to see how both cars performed if you swapped engines. Could the VF handle the same with more weight in the front and faster entry speeds?

Research the GTS. It can more than handle the extra grunt and perform likewise. I assume the 6.2L blown GM V8 engine is heavier than Fords possibly as well.