Mazda Enters Speed Camera Debate

[aussiblue]

From my own involvement in creating legislation in a past life, I would also observe that for laws to be effective you need both effective compliance and acceptance of the laws and compliance activities by most of those impacted. Without the latter, people will endeavour to individually, conspiring with others or in formal or informal groups, to:
a) avoid;
b) evade;
c) circumvent; or
d) overturn
... the related law.

I guess that is where we are at with speeding and speed cameras. We don't have the full acceptance by all the community of the compliance activities and to some extent the law itself. But I am not sure how you convince those that there should be speed limits and that speed cameras are an effective and acceptable compliance activity. It is also obviously an issue that people on both sides argue with passion but not always with objective reason.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Out of interest; does your cruise control apply the brakes?

yes, well, in a way. cruise in the FG will shift down through the gears attempting to maintain speed even downhill, and it does it reasonably well. depending on the gradient and speed the car will only run on by 5 or so km'h before it starts to peg it back.

so, although it doesn't apply the brakes (to my knowledge) it does control the speed on downhills.

Originally Posted by johnydep

What do you think of the NT's road speed rules? Have you driven in Europe?

whats that got to do with anything?

for what its worth, i'm one of these rare people it seems that doesn't have a problem with authority, so if a sign tells me the maximum allowable speed, then i don't have a problem obeying that. its a pretty simple concept which many find difficult.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I am not sure how you convince those that there should be speed limits and that speed cameras are an effective and acceptable compliance activity.

I think it's wrong to assume that because we disagree with the situation as it is now, we disagree with speed limits full stop. For most, I doubt that's the case. What we'd rather see is a focus on those speeding dangerously, instead of the amount of emphasis placed on trivial infractions.

[noflac52]

I spent a whole career dealing with current and past legislation until recently and what those papers say is different to actuality and what is happening on our roads.
My work was at the forefront on our roadways dealing with the aftermath of mistakes made by poorly educated drivers.

One can easily say that the cameras have reduced the accident rate and reportable casualty crashes because they have, but the reality of the situation ignores the fact that we have a very large country and the ability to cross large parts of it in an efficient manner is ignored.

What about an increase in non reported accidents where no injuries occurred..It is not a statistic that is available because they are no longer reported because the police no longer deal with this situation. So what you may say! No one was hurt!
This is a head in the sand approach to what is really happening. The standard of the average driver is dropping and using the approach the government has they will probably just drop speed limits more to address the situation as the reportable crash rate increases and when the crash rate drops due to the exorbitantly slow movement of the traffic they will all claim that the cameras are doing their job again. Dumb the system down a bit more.

It is a vicious circle that keeps repeating and I can tell you that the academics and bureaucrats that write their papers using the statistics that are available to them have not hit the nail on the head because the statistics are very unreliable for a variety of reasons.

Part of the paper suggests that people who don't know what they are talking about are the problem with speed cameras and I support that. The people who write these papers don't really know what they are talking about. Its not a conscious thing but the information they use to come to their conclusions comes from so many different sources. All they are doing is collating it and forming an opinion. If any of the information is wrong so will be their conclusions. From a lot of experience I can tell you that the statistical information is regularly wrong.

When police officers say, as per a previous post that most of the infringements they issue for speeding are not issued because a driver is doing something that was unsafe, they are being issued simply because a law was contravened, then there is something inherently wrong with the system.

The system should be about getting from one place to another in a timely manner and doing so safely. At the moment it doesn't fulfil those criteria!

Safety is a relative term anyway and absolute zero road toll will never be achieved.

There are many ways to help the road system meet that criteria and the over emphasis on speed cameras is hampering real, effective solutions.

[Davehoos]

I been reading with interest. and having a good laugh.
NSW Government handout-http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/myths_facts_speed_cameras.pdf
local private speed camera provider had fined cancelled because they had been hiding-and the speed cameras used on the local roads are hyway patrol cars and not required to show themselves.

　

Myth: NSW drivers are booked for speeding more than anywhere else in the country.
Fact: NSW has a modest speed camera program and issues less speeding infringements per capita than Victoria, Queensland and most other jurisdictions.

[EgoFG]

Reducing speed, with no other changes will save lives.
Speed cameras, when visible, will reduce some peoples speed.
Speed cameras, when rumoured, will reduce some peoples speed.

You could argue that the attention diverted to the speedo might increase accidents.
You could argue that once past the speed camera some may feel that they can speed with impunity.

My argument is that speed is not the cause of accidents.
If we address the real cause, then speed can be increased.

The problem is that the police find it hard to fine someone for failing to indicate, failing to keep left, Tailgating, travelling too slowly, cutting someone off.

Speeding can be tested with a camera providing undeniable evidence - all the more important things cannot.

If we could police all the rules that make drivers aware of other drivers, and circumstances, then we get a real reduction in accidents.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

.

The problem is that the police find it hard to fine someone for failing to indicate, failing to keep left, Tailgating, travelling too slowly, cutting someone off.

Speeding can be tested with a camera providing undeniable evidence - all the more important things cannot.

If we could police all the rules that make drivers aware of other drivers, and circumstances, then we get a real reduction in accidents.

So your saying something like...

Road inspectors who drive around in traffic all day simply pinching people for inattention, failure to keep right, failure to indicate and change lanes safely, mobile use etc. etc.
Would this be an effective way of improving driver behaviour?

[Davehoos]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So your saying something like...

Road inspectors who drive around in traffic all day simply pinching people for inattention, failure to keep right, failure to indicate and change lanes safely, mobile use etc. etc.
Would this be an effective way of improving driver behaviour?

YES.
They do this here regularly and you should hear the talk back radio folks squeal. Doing this the fines are much greater-and targeted.

The speeding fine I took to court started out as overtaking a push bike crossing double lines-I argued the point so he booked me for exceeding speed limit>15Kmh.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

The speeding fine I took to court started out as overtaking a push bike crossing double lines

how long ago was this? i believe its actually legal now, or maybe only in some states.

[Vegetable]

more visible policing as opposed to all this under cover stuff please

[Davehoos]

I havnt received a speeding fine since I grew a beard.
I recently changed jobs to get away from the daily stress-and now only have 2 roads that I run past the hidden enforcement, normally in a marked government truck-the only stress I have is secured loads.

not legal to cross unbroken lines except to enter driveways,etc or the unbrocken line is treated as a stop sign. The situation locally is school busses and garbage trucks, I have a few a day past hear on roads without shoulders. When Im in working mode I can normally get the road blocked.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

not legal to cross unbroken lines

i know in qld that law has recently been changed to allow motorists to maneuver around obstacles leaving a safe distance providing it is safe. this includes cyclists. this was due to safe passing distance becoming law in qld. if other states haven't followed i believe they soon will.

[castellan]

I think kids are geting run down at school zones because people are looking at there speedo in total fear of coping a fine and not looking at the bloody road nowadays.

[b0son]

The big problem with school zones now isn't the 'speeding' drivers. Its the bloody mums doing the pickup/dropoff. They think that traffic doing 40kph gives them more opportunity to try bat-**** crazy moves on, like sudden U-turns, diving in/out of car parks, etc. We had roadworks on the road to work, so I took an alternative route past a school for a week, and on every single day I had near-misses. Did the cops park outside the school to watch for any of this? No. They were 300m down the road with their radar.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by b0son

They think that traffic doing 40kph gives them more opportunity to try bat-**** crazy moves on, like sudden U-turns, diving in/out of car parks, etc.

But but but, they've more than likely got one of those 4WD things, and figure the Panzer division can do stuff like that

[jpd80]

What effect would there be on government revenue if no one was caught speeding?

Would governments then be forced to increase everyone's registration to cover the deficit?

[Bill M]

An interesting read for Victorian members...

http://www.theage.com.au/data-point/...916-2tu41.html

[Franco Cozzo]

Its not hard to spot mobile cameras, they're usually a new SUV, commonly a Captiva parked on the side of the road, or Commodore wagon and they've got a nudge bar with one square light mounted to it far outside the nudge bar.

Same with fixed cameras, everyone knows where they are, its not like its a secret.

I've never got one speeding fine and recently I usually speed everywhere on the local highways lol. The closest I came to was driving home from TAFE on a Thursday night, doing 125 in a 100 zone as there was no one around, got close to town and a car in the distance on the other side of the road approaching me, turned on red and blues when it got close, then turned them off and didn't turn around to come after me.

That feeling when you see the red and blues though, damn.

[lucas2]

So this was one of the funnier things I heard today, Billy Brownless "baking" speed cameras:

http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/...speed-cameras/

[joolz]

Originally Posted by lucas2

So this was one of the funnier things I heard today, Billy Brownless "baking" speed cameras:

http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/...speed-cameras/

That's gold and what a laugh as its quite true to a certain degree. Just waiting for the Police Commissioner and do gooders to complain about that segment...

[BENT_8]

Its official, Bill Brownless is an AFF lurker.

Hysteria with nothing worthwhile to back up the rant followed by abusing anyone offering an ounce of common sense or a difference of opinion.

Just like the bloke I spoke about earlier in the thread.

To take a positive out of it, at least you anti camera campaigners can get a feel of what you sound like...

[tut0r]

I've never been done by a mobile speed camera, I notice them 90% of the time. I remember driving down Bell st copped a flash by one of them on the other side of the road, almost ******* blinded me.

That being said best thing I ever heard was upwards of $400 and 4 demerit points for people on phones, god I wish I was a cop I'd rake in the money for the police with that one.

Anyone noticed what the cops on bikes are doing now in Vic? They are lane splitting in traffic looking into each car for people on phones its great haha. Nothing worse than someone on their phone in the car(and I mean actually on their phone not bluetooth).

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Its official, Bill Brownless is an AFF lurker.

Hysteria with nothing worthwhile to back up the rant followed by abusing anyone offering an ounce of common sense or a difference of opinion.

Just like the bloke I spoke about earlier in the thread.

To take a positive out of it, at least you anti camera campaigners can get a feel of what you sound like...

So much fail in this post....

If you actually listened to TripleM and the bakes Billy puts out from time to time, they are all like this.

From the English cricket team last summer to the AFL umpires, it's all for entertainment value only............sheesh............talk about hysteria.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by tut0r

I've never been done by a mobile speed camera, I notice them 90% of the time. I remember driving down Bell st copped a flash by one of them on the other side of the road, almost ******* blinded me.

That being said best thing I ever heard was upwards of $400 and 4 demerit points for people on phones, god I wish I was a cop I'd rake in the money for the police with that one.

Anyone noticed what the cops on bikes are doing now in Vic? They are lane splitting in traffic looking into each car for people on phones its great haha. Nothing worse than someone on their phone in the car(and I mean actually on their phone not bluetooth).

Phones are a much bigger problem on the road.
Yesterday going through a roundabout a guy towing a boat pulled out in front of me. As he pulled out he turned his head and looked straight at me with his phone clearly up again this head. He dropped his hand to hide it, but not quick enough. I now regret not blasting the horn at him, maybe that way the person on the other end of the phone might hear the problems this idiot is causing.

[mcnews]

Something in here touches on how error prone and far from realistic the standard forms police use for reporting cause of accidents etc. is.

=-------

To all Victorian Members of Parliament

Vicroads bungled its' response the Parliamentary Inquiry (PIMS 2012),
into motorcycle & scooter safety. Among other things, the Graduated
Licence System (GLS) has been so badly handled by VicRoads that it
must be redrafted. Roads Minister Terry Mulder MP must face
motorcycle & scooter rider representatives on the Motorcycle Advisory
Group (MAG) in early July.

At 9 am on Monday, June 16, 2014, Michael Czajka, the
Independent Riders Group (IRG) Road Safety & Research Officer, and I
met with Ms Alexandra Douglas adviser to Victorian Roads Minister
Terry Mulder MP. We were not permitted to meet the Minister.

The message we took from the meeting was that Ms Douglas was not
interested in logic, let alone real research or unbiased science
where changes to laws & taxes effecting Victoria's 326,000 motorcycle
& scooter licence holders are concerned.

Ms Douglas was poorly prepared for the meeting. She seemed unaware of
the national insurance claim data that in 40% of claims the bike was
hit from behind by a larger vehicle. That translates into a lot of
injuries. She said in most cases the bike hit the car from behind. We
pointed out this data was flawed by by the inadequate tick-the-box
system police use and that MAG had underspent on motorcycle & scooter
safety research. Ms Douglas was not aware that traffic filtering was
not taught to novice riders.

Consulting stakeholders was not an option. The flow chart
from the STOP THE BLAME GAME paper by Steve Bardsley, Chairman of
the Victorian Scooter Riders Association (VSRA) sums up the
situation.

THE PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY

Ms Douglas was very dismissive of PIMS 2012 and its' recommendations.
She said it was "not being written by experts."

BUT the Victorian Road Safety Committee read scores of
submissions by experts and stakeholders before writing their report.
Of the 64 recommendations in the PIMS report, none have been
implemented. The "whole of government response" to PIMS is not a
credible document because it was mostly written by VicRoads. Catch 22.

www.parliament.vic.gov.au/rsc/inquiry/293

This poses an important question for Victorians and their elected
Members of Parliament. What is the point of paying a lot of money
for a Road Safety Committee when it's work can be dismissed by
non-expert public servants if the results do not suit departmental
policies?

In this case, probably the same public servants who fed their
Minister wrong advice on fatal crashes involving motorcycles &
scooters as a response to the May 26 protest rally at VicRoads.

This link is to a radio interview with VSRA Chairman, Steve Bardsley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN5wI4CWVsc

The MAG at VicRoads is dominated by public servants and political
appointees. Vicroads controls the membership and the minutes. Roads
Minister Mulder sees only what VicRoads wants him to see.

DATA

Ms Douglas admitted that crash site data and road safety research had
problems but was non-committal about recommendation 1. "That an
independent office of road safety data be created, which will be
responsible for collecting, collating, interpreting and publishing
all data relevant to road safety ..............."

The police crash data collecting system is inadequate. The further the
crash is from Melbourne the less likely it is to have a trained
officer attend in timely fashion. VicRoads then "cleanses" what
data is collected.

BUS LANES

On permitting motorcycle & scooter riders to use most bus lanes in
Victoria as is done interstate and overseas. It seems riders
will be permitted to use a very limited number of bus lanes.
This will be seen as a token gift to the motorcycle & scooter
community prior to the state election in November 2014.

We discussed bicycles being permitted to use kilometres of bus lanes,
in speed zones up to 80 kph, even in very hilly suburbs. A single
cyclist struggling up a hill in Doncaster and on other roads,
delays bus loads of 50 + commuters. Ms Douglas was not aware of
the distances or speed zones involved.

Significantly the Eastern Freeway bus lane was excluded except, for
the last few hundred metres. Ms Douglas looked genuinely surprised
when I pointed out the death trap VicRoads had created at the
Hoddle Street end of the Eastern Freeway with the need to crossover
from the transit lane to last of the Eastern Freeway bus lane to
access the Hoddle Street bus lane.

Steve Bardsley (VSRA) and I met Simon Basic at VicRoads in
Sunshine in December 2013. I made Mr Basic well-aware of the
Eastern Freeway hazard approaching Hoddle Street. I drew diagrams. I
also made the danger known to James Holgate at VicRoads Kew. Now
Ministerial Adviser Douglas has been shown the high risk area created
by VicRoads with diagrams and a witness.

If there have been no rider casualties on this part of the freeway I
would be very surprised. If there have been casualties,
VicRoads/TAC/police are not likely to advertise them. When someone is
seriously hurt or killed there, VicRoads can't cry ignorance.

Surprisingly, the Victorian Motorcycle Council (VMC) supported
the plan to permit riders only in the last few hundred metres of
the Eastern Freeway bus lane. The VMC rep said so at a
Motorcycles in Melbourne (CoM) meeting. We do not know of any other
motorcycle or scooter organisation that supports only limited
access to bus lanes, particularly on the Eastern Freeway.

TRAFFIC FILTERING

Traffic filtering is NOT weaving through traffic at speed. It is
riding between slow-moving or stationary cars in traffic jams and/or
on the approaches to intersections. It is the safest way to ride
in heavy traffic. It has existed as long as there has been traffic
and happens every day, all over the world. Ms Douglas wants riders to
stop calling for filtering to be legitimised as in NSW and QLD.

Traffic filtering improves traffic flow and safety. It benefits ALL
road users.

Ms Douglas was completely unaware of the need for the bicycle
"safety boxes" to be extended across the approaches to
intersections to give pedestrians unrestricted access to their
crossings.

It is easy and inexpensive to fix/legitimise traffic filtering.
Change the filtering regulation for bicycles to include motorcycles &
scooters. Extend the stop lines for two wheelers across all lanes at
intersections. But the public servants making decisions for
our MPs are apparently ignorant of many real world requirements.
They consult only with people who fit their policies.

An education campaign to teach car drivers about motorcycles &
scooters in traffic is long overdue. It should be required knowledge
to get a car licence.

BAD ADVICE

On May 26 there was an IRG protest rally at VicRoads. Shadow Roads
& TAC Minister Luke Donnellan MP promised the Opposition would
legitimise traffic filtering if it won the November election.

Minister Mulder went to the media opposing traffic filtering. He
was given very bad advice on filtering and made a fool of himself on
the record. He told journalists that 3 riders died while filtering. It
was not even close to being true true.

THE TAC ANTI-BIKE TAX

Most riders are forced to pay some $75 a year (and rising) as a TAC
"safety levy". No other vehicle operator suffers a targeted tax
like this. This cash would be better spent by riders on bike safety
gear.

PIMS recommendation 25. was to abolish the TAC tax. PIMS
recommendation 24 was to audit the way the millions of dollars
taken from riders has been spent. MAG has underspent on motorcycle
& scooter safety research. PIMS recommendations have been ignored.

As our cities become more congested the number of two-wheel commuters
must increase. It behoves our elected representatives to ensure
that riding for work or pleasure is as safe as possible.

Reducing costs for low-income riders so they can afford better
safety gear and advanced training courses did not seem worthy
of Ms Douglas consideration.

That taxing the victims of most collisions involving bikes and
cars was inherently unfair did not appear to trouble Ms Douglas.
Most riders already pay the same as a driver for their bikes. Most
drivers do not ride. Most riders have a car and so pay twice as much
to be on our roads. Read STOP THE BLAME GAME.

THE GRADUATED LICENCE SYSTEM

The graduated licence system (GLS) cost was similarly dismissed.
The GLS was apparently developed with TAC bike tax money. Car driver
GLS was developed from general revenue not a targeted, unfair tax.
The added cost of at least $300 extra to get a bike licence was
blamed on the rider training schools.

Ms Douglas tried to sell the compulsory conspicuity laws in the GLS
Trojan Horse as the government showing its' love and care for learner
riders. That the push for hi viz vests and lights-on is based on the
opinions of non-experts, not on any solid evidence that conspicuity
measures work, was water off a duck's back.

Ms Douglas did not say how the GLS, due in October 2014, will effect
the Learner Approved Motorcycle Sytem (LAMS) currently operating in
Victoria. The motorcycle industry employs Victorians and contributes
to the state's economy. Stock has to be ordered well in advance. How
will the GLS effect LAMS and the industry?

The GLS must go back to the drawing board.

HIGH VISIBILITY CLOTHING

PIMS did not recommend hi viz gear or compulsory protective gear for
good reasons.

Riders generally are opposed to compulsory clothing, helmets excepted,
because it changes our legal standing and because any benefit can be
gained through voluntary use. TAC has already raised the concept of
"contributory negligence".

The motorcycle helmet ADR is a mess that prevents safer products
being sold in Australia. This kind of problem could arise with
compulsory protective clothing.

I pointed out that some 20,000 posties across Australia wear very
brightly-coloured gear and they get hit on their motorcycles by cars
with sickening regularity. Ms Douglas made excuses but did NOT commit
to looking at the before and after data related to postie bike crashes
and the introduction of hi viz clothes and bikes. The crash data
exists but if it does not fit the agenda it seems the research won't
get done no matter how inexpensive.

PROTECTIVE CLOTHING

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...-uk/25132.html

Secure motorcycle & scooter parking with lockers for gear should be
required at park & ride facilities and in new buildings as for
bicycles.

THE LIGHTS-ON LAW

Michael and I were astounded that Ms Douglas did not even know
motorcycles & scooters are sold with hard wired headlights! There is
no light switch. How can such ill-informed people be held up to us as
bike safety experts!

She said very clearly that the lights-on law was to stop learner's
switching their headlights off! That was as ill-informed as Minister
Mulder telling the media that 3 died traffic filtering.

I explained that an ADR meant that for the last 20 years or so,
motorcycles & scooters have been sold without light switches. She
did NOT know! This is the level of expertise used when dealing with
our safety and it is not good enough.

People with such a lack of knowledge of motorcycling in
traffic, are making road safety decisions for us. This is wrong at
every level.

CONSULTATION WITH STAKEHOLDERS

Ms Douglas claimed there had been consultation with stakeholders.
We said we had not been consulted and were banned from MAG even
as observers. There were several PIMS recommendations in Chapter 10 on
consultation with stakeholders. We told her the "public"
consulting sessions were "information nights" with the information
going one way - from bureaucrats to riders. And, the sessions were
invitation only. She did not know.

We pointed out that many of their proposed moves against riders came
from well before the PIMS in 2012 so what was the point in spending
tax payers money on the inquiry?

Ms Douglas said that the PIMS report was written by non-experts, in
other words, the Victorian Road Safety Committee, it's 494 page
report, its' 64 recommendations and the scores of submissions from
experts and stakeholders did not equal the opinions of public
servants like Ms Douglas and James Holgate who demonstrate their
dislike for riders daily and who do not even know that motorcycles
& scooters have not had light switches for TWO DECADES!

QUESTIONS

This meeting raises two questions.

First, why waste taxpayers dollars on a Parliamentary Road Safety
Committee when they are overruled by the bureaucracy?

Second, who runs this state, our elected representatives in Parliament
or faceless bureaucrats at VicRoads and TAC?

TOURISM

Bicycle tourism is worth $362 million a year to Victoria. Motorcycle &
scooter tourism is worth at least twice that.

Later on June 16, at a very positive meeting with Tourism
Victoria, we got the message that a lot of ideas for promoting
motorcycle & scooter tourism in this state would have to get
Vic Roads approval and should therefore be raised at MAG! Catch 22.

Bring on the 2014 Victorian election.

Damien Codognotto OAM
Spokesman
Independent Riders Group
Melbourne

[M&Ms]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What effect would there be on government revenue if no one was caught speeding?

Would governments then be forced to increase everyone's registration to cover the deficit?

It'll be to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year per state in lost revenue.

What they'd do, is start fining people for driving at the limit (60 in a 60 = a fine). When people drive below the limit, they will start fining you for driving within 1km/h of the limit (59 in a 60 = a fine). Then within 2km/h, 3km/h, 4km/h , etc etc.

Then they'll start fining you for driving a white car, me for driving a black car, and all the others for driving colourful cars.

Governments rely on people speeding for their income. It is not in their financial interests that people drive within the speed limits.

Go back years ago, and people would only get pulled over for doing 15 or 20 or 25 over the limit. Now, you get pulled over for 5 kays if the copper is bored.

[Davehoos]

I read through the MCNEWS posting with interest.
coming from mid north coast NSW.

Today on the local mid coast radio was a NSW PUSH BIKE REP.-could have been a government, health or transport or other spokesmen as I wasn't listening at first. it started of with a call for safety from surgeons as statistics for Newcastle have numbers of cyclist per week hospitalised.

they refer to themselves as cyclist and they singing from the same tone that your reports refers to. The 2 motor cyclist I was with just shook their heads and wondered what reality the media was reporting on.

Most people blame certain people that appear to be running the system. Experience tells me that government body are aiming if possible to standardise across Australia similar policy and deflect critics by calling it political policies. I only 4 years in local government so Im on the bottom--Ive a lot to learn yet.

Recently have done training for standardised national truck inspections.
If it works I let you know

[LTDHO]

When was the last time anyone saw and ad on TV on how to drive safer? Never?
(In fact AAMI add shows how to driver poorly!!)

Education to the masses doesn't need to be text book and test, it can be done more subtly.

TV, radio, news papers, etc will get the message out there. I know not everyone watches TC, listens to the radio or reads the paper.

There is also social media, info spreads like wild fire on there. Again I am sure not everyone has a Facebook account.

Finally, if the above fails, there is 'word of mouth'.

I believe strongly in more driver education and less cameras.

[cherokee45]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Never even thought of that! There will be a time when GPS / computers linked to a plethora of sensors will pretty much drive you around in your own car.. you will be mearly a passenger...

I can see it now "getting fined 400 credits for having an illegally hacked car operating system that can get you off the grid at the flick of a switch" lol

Already happening in USA and parts of Europe, see link to google driverless car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car

[cherokee45]

Originally Posted by noflac52

Another perspective:

Teach all licence holders to drive correctly (meaning how to handle a vehicle in all conditions at any speed) and the safety stuff in cars will be almost unnecessary along with draconian distracting regulations as crashes will drop in direct proportion to the skill level of the nations road users.

Too easy!

Couldn't agree more ! We are taught to pass driver's exam not to properly drive/handle a vehicle. I have been licenced in USA & Germany where you must go on a controlled driving park and demonstrate you can handle; skids, safe distance to follow car in front, break without killing plastic pedestrians and be able to properly handle a car in snow, ice and fog.

I have asked relatives and friends what they would do if the rear of the vehicle is trying to meet the front from either the left or right rear, guss what hey killed themselves and others.

My pet peeve are drivers who talgate me at 110km/hr on the freeway, someone needs to educate them that it takes xx meters to stop going at xx km/hr, or something simple ike if you are doing 10km/hr you should follow the car in front by xx car lengths, not the vague rubbish you see TAC spout on TV.