Australia Will Suffer Without Auto Manufacturing- Alan Mulallay

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by b0son

At the end of the day, no amount of policy will correct for uncompetitive pricing where manufacturing is concerned. The trend in the western world is for increasing regulation and bureaucracy, and that only increases the cost burden.

For me specifically, we're now getting audited for compliance by the government at unacceptable intervals. Its approaching the break-even point where the cost of compliance is approaching the profit that part of our business generates. Its going to make more sense to say goodbye to 20% of our revenue that this area makes up, and let go of 20% of our workers that we'll no longer need.



But even manufacturing adopts automation wherever possible, and automation advances always aim to reduce the man hours to turn out a product.

Why would I pay someone $50k to work on a line when I can pay $50k for a machine that replaces them and pays for itself in the same amount of time? The machine isn't going to whinge that his (harder-working) co-worker gets paid more, he isn't going to make dubious workers comp claims, I'm not going to have to implement largely pointless safety measures for the machine, etc.

You have missed the point.
line workers are a small part of manufacturing.
There are the many and varied roles that precede the assembly process of sophisticated products.
The Automotive industry is not a simplistic segment and has a broad spread of intellectual property though out many other industries.

Whinging workers? You are whining about compliance, get used to it.
The world is headed down that path already, heard of RoHS compliance?
It is getting stricter and affects the most basic manufactured items and the Chinese are coming to the party because they want to do business with affluent western nations.

Instead of looking through the keyhole open the door, the view is better!

[ryeman]

The only thing that matters is, will we look back and ask......."why can't WE make things like that"?.
If that question is never asked......no problem then.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Bill M

I worked for a CNC equipped Engineering co. who does Automotive, Aerospace and defense producing components small and high value so I know from the inside.
The car industry has switched to defense in a very short time-frame before and could do it again.The transfer of professional skills both tertiary and trade certificate are well known to those who work in these fields.

Manufacturing Abrams tanks? Maybe not but they have a multitude of consumable components that have to be made somewhere.
Hopefully here keeping the country self reliant up to a point and embracing globalisation for products (read cheap consumer goods) that are more suitable for low cost regions to produce.
Bill.

Exactly. Ford Geelong during WWII didn't build the big stuff like complete aircraft or tanks, although Ford US did, but they built stuff like long range fuel tanks for spitfires, landing barges, transport trucks etc, and other essential war time equipment. That equipment extends well beyond tanks and planes.

And AFAIK the Geelong toolroom is still the biggest toolroom in the southern hemisphere with the capability of making high tech stuff, they have made tail planes for Boeing 747's in the past, and the toolroom is currently being leased out by a aeronautical supplier making parts for the JSF at the moment.

[Syndrome]

All too late. Banana Republic here we come.

[Pub247]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Exactly. Ford Geelong during WWII didn't build the big stuff like complete aircraft or tanks, although Ford US did, but they built stuff like long range fuel tanks for spitfires, landing barges, transport trucks etc, and other essential war time equipment. That equipment extends well beyond tanks and planes.

And AFAIK the Geelong toolroom is still the biggest toolroom in the southern hemisphere with the capability of making high tech stuff, they have made tail planes for Boeing 747's in the past, and the toolroom is currently being leased out by a aeronautical supplier making parts for the JSF at the moment.

so all we gotta do is go start a war with someone and that'll solve unemployment and boost manufacturing industry....

wait a minute that's what america does..

[ryeman]

^^^^as Eisenhower warned Kennedy, beware the industrial military complex.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Pub247

so all we gotta do is go start a war with someone and that'll solve unemployment and boost manufacturing industry....

wait a minute that's what america does..

Worked for Hitler too. At least for a few years.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bill M

You have missed the point.

And you missed mine.

There's no point throwing money at getting new industries off the ground while simultaneously creating mindless bureaucracy that makes those industries less competitive for no tangible benefit.

[turbodewd]

Alas Ford is an American company and they are entitled to make a global lineup of cars for economies of scale. So I can understand why they would ditch the relatively small-selling Falcon.

As for the commodore, it sounds like it could have been saved, however Labor made no coordinated effort with the States to ensure an AU-buying policy.

Just yesterday I saw cars with Aust. Def. Force plates on a Kluger and Aurion. I was disgusted. Whoever made that purchasing decision should be demoted. Similarly the ACT Labor govt goes around buy Kias and similar cars. I mean, wtf, the ACT exists purely due taxpayer funds...its outrageous to then turn our back on the produce of other Aussies. Obviously a little Kia would be cheaper than a commodore...so just keep it for another year or 2 to make the money go further.

Oh and the "security" SUV behind the PM's car these days is a fckin BMW. Now supposedly they bort (my spelling) that over a Territory due to the ability of an upgraded one to withstand a bomb or bullets (something like that). I say, so fckin what, this is Australia, that stuff doesnt happen here AND if someone wanted to harm the PM they would choose another method. Just another Fed govt disgrace.

In 2012 I also visited Newcastle and saw an RTA yard with Hondas and Korean cars sporting NSW govt plates. Again, disgusted. These cars were probably bought under Labor. Im not bashing Labor per se, I just cant believe the Feds didnt coordinate anything with their State counterparts. Not very smart.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Last time I checked I work for a "second stage" auto manufacturer, we aren't all gone.

We are legally classed as a manufacturer.

Same with my competitors - Mader International, SEM Fire and Rescue, Bell Environmental etc.

Not mass production but there is development etc happening all the time.

Unfortunately you guys are probably only a couple of regulations, ADRs, few kickbacks or the like away from being off shored. I'm sure if there was a slight change in conditions it would be cheaper/easier for companies to just import reconfigured vehicles straight from overseas ..

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by b0son

And you missed mine.

There's no point throwing money at getting new industries off the ground while simultaneously creating mindless bureaucracy that makes those industries less competitive for no tangible benefit.

A little off topic & maybe too political, but I think the current Federal Government is repealing 700 odd laws this qtr, with another 700 odd later this year. It was on the news a few weeks back, they are calling it "repeal day", or something like that. This is all too late for Ford & Holden, but hopefully this helps many, many other businesses & sectors to get moving again!!

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Alas Ford is an American company and they are entitled to make a global lineup of cars for economies of scale. So I can understand why they would ditch the relatively small-selling Falcon.

As for the commodore, it sounds like it could have been saved, however Labor made no coordinated effort with the States to ensure an AU-buying policy.

Just yesterday I saw cars with Aust. Def. Force plates on a Kluger and Aurion. I was disgusted. Whoever made that purchasing decision should be demoted. Similarly the ACT Labor govt goes around buy Kias and similar cars. I mean, wtf, the ACT exists purely due taxpayer funds...its outrageous to then turn our back on the produce of other Aussies. Obviously a little Kia would be cheaper than a commodore...so just keep it for another year or 2 to make the money go further.
In 2012 I also visited Newcastle and saw an RTA yard with Hondas and Korean cars sporting NSW govt plates. Again, disgusted. These cars were probably bought under Labor. Im not bashing Labor per se, I just cant believe the Feds didnt coordinate anything with their State counterparts. Not very smart.

It's good to blame just one political party it seems, but that's the Forum for you.

It seems these days that salary sacrifice, employed across the country, was structured to give the higher wage earners in councils etc the flexibility of 'user choose', possibly part of an EBA.
It seems also, that the second tier of govt doesn't want to dictate to the third, what it's purchasing policy should be.

On the other hand a laissez faire attitude is a substitute for any policy framework leaving market forces free reign letting the cards fall where they may......for a Minister, little work, good pay n perks no responsibility.

[mickcoz]

Originally Posted by ryeman

It's good to blame just one political party it seems, but that's the Forum for you.

It seems these days that salary sacrifice, employed across the country, was structured to give the higher wage earners in councils etc the flexibility of 'user choose', possibly part of an EBA.
It seems also, that the second tier of govt doesn't want to dictate to the third, what it's purchasing policy should be.

On the other hand a laissez faire attitude is a substitute for any policy framework leaving market forces free reign letting the cards fall where they may......for a Minister, little work, good pay n perks no responsibility.

Unfortunately we don't build every type of vehicle that people may want or need so I recognise that I may be looking at the world through through rose coloured glasses when I say its a shame government departments at all levels didn't limit the brand/models to be chosen under salary sacrifice to something built in Australia, that would have gone a long way towards keeping car manufacturing building at higher rates and kept the factory owners investing,

Unfortunately its also been a long time since our federal and state governments specified locally built cars to be the preferred option for government purchasing. Imagine how far that would have gone investing in our manufacturing industry future.

I've bought Australian made cars for years, primarily Ford Falcons, because I wanted a full size family car that was comfortable to drive, and etc, but many other buyers wanted different types of cars and a bunch of those weren't available a locally made vehicles because our car industries have to bid and compete in their parent company's global market to get awarded the 'contract' to build a particular model and we didn't seem to be able our cars out into those global markets to keep our manufacturing running at high levels.

[ryeman]

^^^and the bottom line is we never OWNED a car maker and thus weren't in a position to define our future.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by ryeman

^^^and the bottom line is we never OWNED a car maker and thus weren't in a position to define our future.

Exactly.

And the fact that no one has put their hand up to buy Ford's factory and establish a new local manufacturer speaks for itself.

I realize just about every other G20 nation makes cars, but do we make anywhere near their volumes? And all those countries export substantial volumes AFAIK. Two major factors in any business case for car manufacture these days.

[ryeman]

Globally, Toyota sold 1 million hybrids in just the last 9 months. (EarthTechling)

[Romulus]

I believe the underlying issue is both sides of government rushing in to sign these so called "Free Trade Agreements" with an alleged benefit to the Australian economy. The problem is, our automotive industry has suffered immensely due to these FTA's.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

Globally, Toyota sold 1 million hybrids in just the last 9 months. (EarthTechling)

Yep. consumers are sick of high gasoline prices and they're doing ther research and numbers......Even the taxi co's have had enough and are buying them now.

And the new Prius is a great looking car compared to the first model.

I just wish Toyota would do a 'sports' Camry Hybrid Wagon.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

I believe the underlying issue is both sides of government rushing in to sign these so called "Free Trade Agreements" with an alleged benefit to the Australian economy. The problem is, our automotive industry has suffered immensely due to these FTA's.

But I guess our beef industry has regained ground?

JP

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Yep. consumers are sick of high gasoline prices and they're doing ther research and numbers......Even the taxi co's have had enough and are buying them now.

And the new Prius is a great looking car compared to the first model.

I just wish Toyota would do a 'sports' Camry Hybrid Wagon.

What does it cost to replace a battery or an electric motor on one of these hybrids?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

But I guess our beef industry has regained ground?

JP

Excellent. So the redundant auto workers can now find jobs in the beef industry? Where?

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

What does it cost to replace a battery or an electric motor on one of these hybrids?

From what I have read the Prius is a typical Toyota product and disproving the cynics......battery life is living up to the Toyota promise.

What amazed me was the price of the Nissan Leaf....bound to fail.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

What does it cost to replace a battery or an electric motor on one of these hybrids?

I think Toyota offer an 8 year warranty on their batteries. They are designed for a 10+ year life and cost about 3K to replace. So possibly cheaper than an engine replacement.

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Excellent. So the redundant auto workers can now find jobs in the beef industry? Where?

Im not saying its right or wrong but The beef industry is linked to more than 200,000 jobs nationally and generates $16 billion a year for the economy. Much of it employment is in rural areas which any government cannot ignore.

JP

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

What does it cost to replace a battery or an electric motor on one of these hybrids?

Some taxi's are getting 600,000k's from first battery.....But yes I'm sure replacement is expensive and surely electric motor bearings at least would need replacement also.

[Romulus]

What is the total cost of ownership for these hybrid vehicles and furthermore, what environmental impact do these vehicles have at the end of their life cycle?

I'd love to know exactly what 'recycling' of these vehicles refers to, especially when it comes to the batteries.

[mickcoz]

I guess the comments about the hybrids is praising Toyota for making a car that is being exported and hopefully that means Toyota will be be manufacturing here for years to come.

Want a shame Ford and Holden couldn't have gotten to make a product that meets real market demand and has such great exportability. Maybe there'd still be a local manufacturing future for them both.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by mickcoz

I guess the comments about the hybrids is praising Toyota for making a car that is being exported and hopefully that means Toyota will be be manufacturing here for years to come.

Want a shame Ford and Holden couldn't have gotten to make a product that meets real market demand and has such great exportability. Maybe there'd still be a local manufacturing future for them both.

The US has never needed to worry or care about exports and that mentality is the reason why we're losing them.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

What is the total cost of ownership for these hybrid vehicles and furthermore, what environmental impact do these vehicles have at the end of their life cycle?

I'd love to know exactly what 'recycling' of these vehicles refers to, especially when it comes to the batteries.

I had the impression Toyota take the old batteries back for recycle.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

I'd love to know exactly what 'recycling' of these vehicles refers to, especially when it comes to the batteries.

In Europe...

'the Prius is 85% recyclable and it will be perfectly possible to recover 95% of its materials through a process involving only 2% of its life cycle CO2 emissions.

Toyota makes sure that the high-voltage nickel-metal hydride battery is recovered with zero emissions. only authorized Prius service centers will have the facility. That’s why it approves certain waste management companies to transport batteries to the European Final Treatment Companies (FTCs): SNAP, Accurec and Umicore. '

From what I understand any car sold in Germany must have its parts construction material type identified within the part. for example the type of plastic a bumper is made from is cast into the part itself, aiding with end of life recycling process. The Germans are leaps and bounds ahead of many countries when it comes to this sort of policy.

JP