Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Anyone who has driven a large FWD car in the wet can testify that unexpected lift off understeer is one of the scariest things in the world.

I attended a skid pan day and spoke with Rick bates. According to him, it the wet the fwd car has better control. More weight over the front of the car giving the car greater control because everything is done at the front. Brake, power and steering.

Now I don't know much on the subject, but if an advanced driving instructor says fwd cars have better control in the wet, who am I to argue.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

FWD cars are not rubbish how can you say this when the john cooper works minis of old used to be highly competitive on the track in this country? I recently bought a Ford focus XR5 09 model and it is front wheel drive and over 60 ft the thing is a missile and no it doesn't suffer torque steer or understeer or many other afflictions associated with fwd cars DSC is like a hand of god almost in this car it just goes where you intend it to doesn't understeer or torque steer and is fun as all getout to drive - in the wet I went a little spirited round a roundabout and was being tailgated by a b series falcon who spunout on the roundabout couldn't match my midcorner speed. All you guys that are poo pooing on FWD go drive a modern GOOD one not a crap one then see if you still think FWD is bad. I would also put my money on the focus over my BA through a really twisty section of road if one was to do timed runs it (the focus) just achieves midcorner speeds my falcon cant touch without coming unstuck hard. calling something crap because you don't understand it is very immature.

Have you actually read any of the posts thus far?

FWD only works up to a certain size/weight/power. We know it works in a Focus. The fact is it doesn't work in a TRD Aurion, or even a base model Aurion, where RWD would (unless Toyota built it, imagine all the involuntary donuts resulting in impounded cars from the accelerator pedals sticking).

When was the last time you saw a FWD Bus?

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

I attended a skid pan day and spoke with Rick bates. According to him, it the wet the fwd car has better control. More weight over the front of the car giving the car greater control because everything is done at the front. Brake, power and steering.

Now I don't know much on the subject, but if an advanced driving instructor says fwd cars have better control in the wet, who am I to argue.

I agree - unfortunately, most of Joe Public are not advanced driving instructors and know nothing of throttle control, or weight transfer, or even weight distribution. Even the idea of less than 100% traction scares the hell out of them.

Therefore a more stable car with a low (Camry) price, sporting credentials and good economy should sell well, as long as its marketed properly.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Have you actually read any of the posts thus far?

FWD only works up to a certain size/weight/power. We know it works in a Focus. The fact is it doesn't work in a TRD Aurion, or even a base model Aurion, where RWD would (unless Toyota built it, imagine all the involuntary donuts resulting in impounded cars from the accelerator pedals sticking).

When was the last time you saw a FWD Bus?

oh come now it doesn't work in an aurion? better tell the cops their cars dont work they do work when in the hands of the right driver and there are lots of crappy rear wheel cars out there too........

[jpd80]

Most people aren't gear heads, they don't give a rats about driving cars on their limits.
Knob polishers are the only ones who think everyone should drive high performance cars....

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

oh come now it doesn't work in an aurion? better tell the cops their cars dont work they do work when in the hands of the right driver and there are lots of crappy rear wheel cars out there too........

My old man is a cop, ex pursuit driver. He hates the TRD and regular Aurions with a passion, because they are and handle like FWDs. There's not a lot you can do about it. They just aren't as good as the rear drivers. Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Having driven both versions (albeit not the police ones) I agree.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I agree - unfortunately, most of Joe Public are not advanced driving instructors and know nothing of throttle control, or weight transfer, or even weight distribution. Even the idea of less than 100% traction scares the hell out of them.
.

He said, fwd has better control in the wet. He didn't say, FWD has better control only for professional drivers, but when your average driver is in control, then RWD is better.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Most people aren't gear heads, they don't give a rats about driving cars on their limits.
Knob polishers are the only ones who think everyone should drive high performance cars....

Knob polishers are the ones that decide they know what other people think.

[MITCHAY]

Dude most people don't give a crap about cars, they use them to drive places. These people are equally useless regardless of the drive configurations of their cars :

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Knob polishers are the ones that decide they know what other people think.

You seem to be doing a very good impersonation of that, please continue....

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Knob polishers are the ones that decide they know what other people think.

Pot....meet kettle!!

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You seem to be doing a very good impersonation of that, please continue....

Yes I'm looking forward to hearing more of this

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Hmm. What rot. There's more than three brands of car on sale in Australia, one of which is Japanese and the other two American. I think you'll find the production runs of Camrys and Aurions combined would kill those of the two American companies, as well as the export capacities. That's not a comment on quality or anything else (though Toyota do thrash the other two on build quality), its a comment on demand.

Also - what crap about 'Australian conditions'. It's 40 years since that was relevant. Discerning towers already use Prados, Landcuisers, Patrols and Pajeros far more than mediocre rear wheel drive Aussie built cars. Have you actually stepped outside lately?

Lets see Camry 2840 Aurion 898 thats 3838 units compared to Falcon & Commodore 3914 and 2514 so that 6428 units in total, bit of a fail there, Some people like to tow without spending 20 litres per 100ks or spending massive amounts of money on SUVs you might only use twice a year, and as for the reliability of twin turbo setups I have built them before and they do not like dust, something we have lots of here. I never said FWD was crap I just said it is not as good as RWD I also own a sp23, great car handles great so long as you are not accelerating through the corner, something I can do in my Cosmo.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

He said, fwd has better control in the wet. He didn't say, FWD has better control only for professional drivers, but when your average driver is in control, then RWD is better.

I think you'll find FWD is easier for the average driver to control in the wet. These people (think most drivers on the road) aren't too adapt at catching oversteer... Thats why FWD's are generally favoured in the snow.

[fordOwner]

Rear engine Falcon??? plausable but not adequate
I loved the comment on half a bicycle hanging out the front of the bonnet.
Rear engine vehicles are more for sports cars aye?
Imagine the Falcon ute at a construction site - cement mixer in the tub with the motor and a wheel barrow poking out the bonnet.

[Pat Riley]

Does anyone else find it hypocritical that the OP drives a friggen ED Falcon aka a schoolbus and is trying to ridicule modern day FWD cars for their inferior handling characteristics?? Is this not evidence that some people buy cars (ED Falcon) for reasons other than their handling characteristics?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Not really, a fwd car will have a greater percentage of its weight on the driven wheels than a rwd car (unless mid/rear engine), which means it will have more traction.

What you say about the weight is true, however when a car accelerates, there is a weight shift to the back (which is why the rear squats down and the front raises up).

This weight shift helps with traction in a RWD car, but will make the front of the car lighter, meaning less down force in a FWD car.

This weight shift is a FWD cars biggest problem. If you look at FWD drag cars, the rear springs are almost solid, with very little give in them to stop the weight shift from happening under acceleration.

The only way a FWD car will have better traction than a RWD (all other variables being equal) is if the FWD car was driven in reverse.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

Does anyone else find it hypocritical that the OP drives a friggen ED Falcon aka a schoolbus and is trying to ridicule modern day FWD cars for their inferior handling characteristics?? Is this not evidence that some people buy cars (ED Falcon) for reasons other than their handling characteristics?

I think I would rather an ED to drive than a FWD, if a FWD works best in the snow then I will never get to see the benefits of the incredible handling prowess.

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

Does anyone else find it hypocritical that the OP drives a friggen ED Falcon aka a schoolbus and is trying to ridicule modern day FWD cars for their inferior handling characteristics?? Is this not evidence that some people buy cars (ED Falcon) for reasons other than their handling characteristics?

You drive a Ba falcon, I drive an Fg falcon. Shutup, your opinion is invalid :

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I think I would rather an ED to drive than a FWD, if a FWD works best in the snow then I will never get to see the benefits of the incredible handling prowess.

haha

[Piotr]

Nurburgring times

Renault Megane R26.R 8:16.90 (180hp/ton)
Mercedes C55 AMG 8:22 (210hp/ton)

Yep FWD sure does suck

[mik]

for me the constant torque steer is annoying in fwd vehicles, as for driving in the wet with fwd...... i would`nt give you 2 bob for 1.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by Piotr

Nurburgring times

Renault Megane R26.R 8:16.90 (180hp/ton)
Mercedes C55 AMG 8:22 (210hp/ton)

Yep FWD sure does suck

power to weight is not and NEVVER WILL BE the detirminate factor in laptimes(quarter mile i different). A RWD with the same kerb weight and level of development as the megane will not only eat it, but spit it out, ******** on it then go back to its house and fornicate with its mother. The discussion here is not about small cars. Its about large FWD cars.

PS a BMW 1 series eats its oposition (with the same power to weight)

[blkvt8]

fwd have there place in the market ... they are cheeper to assemble as the power train is in one place...and thats what most people want is bang for there buck
ps a bmw 1 series is more expenxive than most other cars its size

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by blkvt8

ps a bmw 1 series is more expenxive than most other cars its size

Could it be because its engineered better? and so is a merc, an audi and porsche. My point still stands from an engineering perspective. All other things being equal, a RWD will out handle a FWD. The laws of physics dictate that when you take the forward drive away from the braking and steering wheels they are able to hold the road more effectively.
Comparing a fwd small car and rwd large car as above is tantamount to comparing a 747 and a fighter jet they both fly relatively fast but one turns better. Its not because it has better wings or airframe or engine its because it SMALLER and therefore has less inertia.

[Rev28K]

Well how about a large FWD car with a development of the original Renault Cup suspension, or the later Ford Revoknuckle one? Keeps the advantages and minimises the disadvantages. I'd like to try that.

BMW used to make 4wd 5 series but moved away from it when traction control, stability controls and tyre technology improved.

[last fairlane]

If FWD is so good and RWD is so good why dont we just have AWD
anyway has anyone tried this
as far as I know a Terry is a BA with a wagon
body why cant we have the same AWD platform with the Falcon body on it
wouldnt that be the same mechanical package
just a thought thanks John

[blkvt8]

because holden tried it and it did not go so well ford played it safe and have made a good go of it
and most small awd cars now are a fwd with a small drive shaft going to the rear and i think the 80 20 rule applyes (80%of drive to the front) and they are more expensive than a fwd car again 2 is cheeper than 4

[fordOwner]

Thats what the Ford Aus manager said, from their feedback FWD is good, RWD is better but AWD is excellent!
So its a possibility

[f1tzy]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Therefore a more stable car with a low (Camry) price, sporting credentials and good economy should sell well, as long as its marketed properly.

What? No one has thought of that yet. Go hire a fwd car and try and spin it out without using the hand brake. I bet its alot easier to spin your rwd falcon.

For inexperience drivers fwd is streets ahead as for example you can't get power oversteer. And don't say 'what about the understeer' because the vast vast vast majority of people in fwd wouldn't be going around a corner fast enough to get any, even then its a simple matter of letting off the gas and problem solved. Compare that to rwd, you get power oversteer and you let off the gas to quickly and bam, your in a fishtail or facing the wrong way.

But you put the motor in the back of your falcon and see how horrible it handles and how quick your doing 360's

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by blkvt8

fwd have there place in the market ... they are cheeper to assemble as the power train is in one place...and thats what most people want is bang for there buck
ps a bmw 1 series is more expenxive than most other cars its size

Hence the idea of moving the FWD drivetrain to the middle of the car and using it as RWD gear ala MR2. Not a Porshe, or a Lambo, or a RWD with a front mounted engine, but cheap RWD with the price of a FWD. Having this setup could be called 'sporty' because its a mid mounted engine.

I didn't say we should have a rear engined Falcon, but I can understand how what I said could be perceived as that. What I said/meant was, a car about the size of a Falcon, but with a FWD setup between the rear seats and the rear axle. This would provide limited cargo space in whats left of the boot, plus a bunch more space in the now vacant engine bay.

Of course its not going to be as practical as a Falcon for moving stuff around. If you need to move stuff around, buy a Falcon or a ute. But such a car would surely have a place in the market as a sporty family car. Especially if it costs similar to a regular Camry or Magna. Mid engined cars are perceived as sporty, and a cheap one should sell well.

What is really frustrating me about this debate is that about half of the posters completely understand what I'm trying to get at, and the other half seem to have slightly missed the point. I am open to criticism, but request that those who wish to do so please carefully read this post, and provide feedback based on what I have said.

Yes a Mini Cooper handles better than a 2WD Territory, therefore front wheel drive is better. : Would you buy a FWD Territory?

FWD, RWD and AWD all have their place in the market. I'm not arguing that. Seriously though, FWD is better suited to smaller cars, and was originally fitted to larger cars because of its compact package and price. Which is fine for Joe Bloggs who drives a Camry to his job behind a desk. Camrys aren't supposed to handle well. But for the family man who wants a sports car but needs something cheaper and more practical for lugging kids and luggage around (and to sell to the wife), a Falcon sized car with 4 doors and a mid mounted V6 would be ideal, if it has similar economy and price to a FWD Japanese econobarge, albeit not quite as good for moving around large items of furniture in the boot. Modern suspension, ABS and ESP should solve the problems of 'constant 360s' that people seem to be worried about.

I hope that clears things up a bit.