Apple Mac advice for a PC person please!

[falconboy]

Hi everyone.

Hope this is the right place for a computer question as I couldn't find a specific computer section in the non-automotive chat.

Anyway, I'm a self employed PC technician and I've just landed the contract to do the in-home 'Computer installs' for a fairly large local Electronics/Home Appliances retailer.

Problem is, out of all their stores, their franchise is the second largest seller of Apple in the state, and I haven't had much exposure to Macs.

I can generally plug them in, connect to a network & install a printer (wired or all wireless), and install office, but past that I'm not really up on how they work etc and struggle a bit to totally understand their way of doing things, file management/storage etc.

I can't afford to buy a new one (even with their 'deals' for me), nor do I really want/need a new one (even though in the back of my 'PC mind' I do see them as superior to PC), but I'd like to pick something up second hand with a decent modern OS so I can at my leisure use it and find my way around them better.

So, can someone suggest what I should be looking for in a fairly modern Mac....is it only an 'Imac'?. And in regards to OS, what's the latest version (Snow leopard 10.6 or something?) and what's the oldest I should settle for. Alternatively I get the impression that licensing is a little more simple for OS-X than it is for MS, that I could potentially get the latest pretty cheap on ebay and just install with no problems with activation/licensing etc.....I read somewhere Apple are less 'strict' since OS can only go on an Apple anyway.

As for hardware, I've found a few Imacs around 2007/2008 with Core 2 duo/3gb ram/500gb hdd - would these be ok? I don't intend loading it up with a tonne of stuff so capacity isn't a major problem, just want something that still performs OK with simple apps/internet etc.

Any advice much appreciated.

[cs123]

Latest version of osX is Mavericks and has just been released.
Before that is Lion which is what everyone will run, then Snow leopard and Leopard.

I'd get Lion. You can buy it from any Apple store as single user or family pack. it is pretty cheap. Apple are trying to push people to using the App store for even the OS so have jacked the price of media based OS. I think it's around $70 now to purchase a stick with the installer on it. You can get away with running Snow Leopard. It's pretty similar to Lion except for the lack of the Apps Store. I have media here if you want it.

No issues with licensing, Apple are pretty cool with that.

You will need a machine with plenty of ram. I'd say 4GB min to run Lion. The more ram the better.

Apple do some really good instore classes on using Apple kit. Worth going along for a few sessions.

[FAT245]

Run....

[Becker_11]

If your going to install Apple products then you need to be using the latest OS and the latest hardware otherwise you're just wasting your time.

I bought a Macbook Air last year they are an incredible machine and I've run Linux over the past 4 yrs at home and I support Windows on a corporate Help desk so I've seen what's on offer across the board

I'd say buy a Mac and immerse yourself in the culture of Mac. It's like learning a whole other language and there's times it will drive you nuts. Take renaming a file in the Finder (Macs version of Windows Explorer) I spent hours trying to figure out were the hell the option was to do it before heading to irc and asking for help. Get this, you select the file with the mouse then press return and type the name you want. It's that simple! The thing is though until you learn the 1 way to do something it's incredibly frustrating.

This isn't a bad thing though. As once you understand how it's done you also realise that it's the easiest way to do it.

Re reading your original post I see you can't afford a new machine I have heard there is a refurbishment program which runs through Apple. Not sure if that's available in Australia but again your best bet is to go to an Apple store and ask them there.

[TheSneakiness]

To me Macs are backwards in what you do to accomplish simple things.

I've recently had to convert two clients who access our system back to Windows based PCs to use our program (because Macs cannot run Active X controls), even though their entire IT system is Apple based.

I agree with FAT245, run.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

To me Macs are backwards in what you do to accomplish simple things.

I've recently had to convert two clients who access our system back to Windows based PCs to use our program (because Macs cannot run Active X controls), even though their entire IT system is Apple based.

I agree with FAT245, run.

What sort of 'tard develops apps that require active-X. It's not the 90s any more.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by cs123

What sort of 'tard develops apps that require active-X. It's not the 90s any more.

The tards that we bought the software program from in the US.

[DBourne]

Each to their own. I used to hate macs then got a macbook pro in 2011 for photo work, and I absolutely love it.

Good thing is you can load windows on there as a dual boot (dual boot software comes with Mac's OS) so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

Each to their own. I used to hate macs then got a macbook pro in 2011 for photo work, and I absolutely love it.

Good thing is you can load windows on there as a dual boot (dual boot software comes with Mac's OS) so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.

The other option I gave my clients.

[falconboy]

Regardless of for and against, I have no choice in the matter if I want to do the work.....and work = money. And I like money.

Thanks all for your input so far.

I don't see why I would need the latest hardware, surely I only need something that will run the latest OS 'sufficiently' to learn how to use it?

[FAT245]

if you just want to learn it,

Run a Mac Virtual Machine.

We deal with multiple sites at work, roughly 13000 Across Australia, We manage everything from Phones and Network to Multi site infrastructures...

The Bane of my Existence there are Mac's and Their Users... Mainly their users....
Software and Infrastructure nowadays is a little more Mac friendly but still require a special way of doing things in some cases to have it all working ... for a while.

[Vincenzo]

I run an early MacBook pro from 2008 with multiple screens. It has the latest version of MacOS X (Maverick OS 10.9) running flawlessly. 4Gb ram, 250Gb SSD HD and 2.5GHz core 2 duo.

I've been using them since 1994 and I find it no different in arguments between Mac V's Windows than Ford V's Holden.

I just happen to be a Ford driving Mac user.


Cheers Vincenzo

[chevypower]

Yeah you don't need the latest hardware, I think Tim Cook announced that Mavericks would be a free upgrade from any OSX system. I am still using my 2008 MacBook Pro 15''. I have done video editing with it, used it for my online bachelor degree program, and nearly completed my MBA with it. I think if you become familiar with the OS, iWork, iLife, play around with media organization, and do whatever you normally do with computers is good exposure. You will see that Macs love AIFF and MOV files, and not so much AVI files. But they can play them, sometimes you just need to install plugins. If you do media (which you should), get an Apple TV 3 to play around with too. I think one of the reasons people buy Macs is because they organize media very well using iPhone, iMovie, iTunes etc., so it's a good idea to become familiar with them. By the way iWork is Apple's equivalent to Office, I like it in its own right, but I use Office on my Mac because its easier to submit school work in the required formats. In iWork you can export it as an Office file format, but not save the original that way. Though these days, I often submit work in PDF anyway so it probably doesn't matter. I love iMovie and FCP-X. For old hardware, you can look at any Mac with an Intel chip (2007+): MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, and Mac Mini. I'm sure you don't need a Mac Pro.

@FAT245, I'm sorry you have that negative attitude toward your clients.

[FGII-XR6]

you can either install the OS on VM to get the hang of it or throw together an old PC and install it , apple now use the same hardware. to find a list of compatible hardware do a search for hackintosh ( the buzz word for a PC running mas OS)
here is a starting point for you http://www.hackintosh.com/

[Bill M]

Upgrading to OS mavericks may be free but if you have an earlier operating system than OS X Snow Leopard then you will have to purchase the missing OS X versions before upgrading.
Smart move learning both PC and mac platforms, it will make you a better tech
and flexibility is where the dollar returns are.
Bill.

[GTpilot]

@falconboy.
Don't invest too much time and effort into it. Mac users know everything and don't need any help.

[cobramania]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Upgrading to OS mavericks may be free but if you have an earlier operating system than OS X Snow Leopard then you will have to purchase the missing OS X versions before upgrading.

Not sure if the app store lets you, if you have earlier than Snow Leopard?
But you can always download OSX Mavericks free, (save instead of install update), then do a clean install, bypassing all previous OSX versions.
Just backup first, then transfer over any old programs/files you want to keep, running them with a clean new OS.

Unlike Windows that have seperate full version new OS install files & part upgrade version files, (i.e. you can't install windows on a blank hard drive with an OS update version, windows 8.1 may be different now though?), all new OSX apps (Snow Leopard on), are complete full apps that you can do a clean install on a blank Hard Drive, or update from a previous OSX version.

[falconboy]

Thanks all. A virtual machine sounds ok but I don't have a spare machine anyway so I'd still need to buy something compatible with installing OS. Therefore I think its just as easy to buy a real mac, around a 2008 Mac Pro/Imac with 4gb....few on ebay I'm eyeing off at the moment should do the trick. Thanks everyone again!

While I'm here, one thing that seems to keep coming up is syncing. It seems easy to sync one ipad with a pc/mac, data going from PC/mac to ipad, but what if one wants to seperately sync multiple ipads AND both ways (and without the common issue of overwriting data?) This seems to be near impossible with itunes, is there a SEAMLESS easy alternative?

[cobramania]

Originally Posted by falconboy

While I'm here, one thing that seems to keep coming up is syncing. It seems easy to sync one ipad with a pc/mac, data going from PC/mac to ipad, but what if one wants to seperately sync multiple ipads AND both ways (and without the common issue of overwriting data?) This seems to be near impossible with itunes, is there a SEAMLESS easy alternative?

iCloud, syncs everything Apple through it easily, (iMac, iPad, iPhone,etc).
Have a read up on OSX Mavericks & iCloud on the apple web site
http://www.apple.com/au/osx/
http://www.apple.com/au/icloud/
iPad to PC is a different matter & I'm not up on that way (don't need to be).

[Nanoraptor]

The current OS (Mavericks) is 10.9 around a month old, before that is 10.8 (Mountain Lion) and 10.7 (Lion). I'd say running at least 10.8 will keep you current enough with all the important customer facing stuff.

To get a good solid feel for the machines with the least outlay, an iMac would probably be the go. iMacs from Mid 2007 onwards will run Mavericks, although if you're likely to want to play with newer hardware and see how it works, Thunderbolt-equipped iMacs might be better suited - and that started in early 2011.

Being an existing tech though, a bit of nous with a good base knowledge of the OS and you should be good with a 2008 .

If you want to see just what second hand Apple gear had specwise at release, http://www.everymac.com/ is indispensible too.

[falconboy]

Thanks mate, no, don't actually do much with hardware, not even now with PC stuff, more support/troubleshooting, so just need to get my head around it so I can sit down in front of one and have the confidence in at least looking like I know what I'm doing!

[thefargo]

Originally Posted by falconboy

Thanks all. A virtual machine sounds ok but I don't have a spare machine anyway so I'd still need to buy something compatible with installing OS. Therefore I think its just as easy to buy a real mac, around a 2008 Mac Pro/Imac with 4gb....few on ebay I'm eyeing off at the moment should do the trick. Thanks everyone again!

While I'm here, one thing that seems to keep coming up is syncing. It seems easy to sync one ipad with a pc/mac, data going from PC/mac to ipad, but what if one wants to seperately sync multiple ipads AND both ways (and without the common issue of overwriting data?) This seems to be near impossible with itunes, is there a SEAMLESS easy alternative?

you can sync more than one if you set up multiple users. Systems preferences, then users and groups, make sure it is not locked, then add users by clicking on the add (+) sign.
I know this works because my 7 year old and me share my iMac for syncing our own iPads , but (luckily) we don't share the same taste in music or apps

[falconboy]

Originally Posted by thefargo

you can sync more than one if you set up multiple users.

Is that multiple users as in just different itunes accounts?

[DaveD]

One little 'gotcha' I came across was trying to backup my Mac using the built in Time Machine to an NTFS formatted external HDD. It won't let you, so I had to repartition the drive and format the new volume to the Mac file system.

Here's a great little overview of the Mac file system and ways to overcome issues with HFS+ and NTFS - second post on this thread (macrumours forum).

[falconboy]

Yep, I was aware of the NTFS issue, which is a pain as part of the installs is transfer of some data, so I'm just splitting a 300gb seagate exernal portable drive into 180 NTFS and 120 HFS+

[falconboy]

Just bought an Imac! Was looking at Core 2 duo's, for around 2008 they where anything from $400-$600 depending on ram and screen size. But managed to pick up a 2010 Intel i3 3.06gGHz with 4gb and a 500gb HDD for $550. They clearly hold their value more than PC's! Would like to upgrade ram, and noticed this model seems to have 4 ram slots with 2 free, whereas most of the older ones have 2 slots both full. Great stuff! So far its great, although I had to use single user mode to reset the user password but now I'm having trouble with something called Keychains and can't for the life of me reset/create a new one for this current user.

[Vincenzo]

I don't want to teach you how to suck eggs but I have always found the help menu in finder useful. If not try either google or Apple's support page.


Cheers Vinny - sounds like a good buy.

[cs123]

You can list your keychains from terminal using a command

~ cspierings$ sudo security list-keychains
"/Users/cspierings/Library/Keychains/login.keychain"
"/Users/cspierings/Library/Keychains/Microsoft_Intermediate_Certificates"
"/Library/Keychains/System.keychain"

Then delete any you don't want. You cannot unlock/access a keychain without the keychain password. It is probably the old user password.

You can also use a gui located in Applications/utilities/keychain to view them. You will see a lock in the top left corner. To unlock the keychain you need the password for that keychain.