New Land Cruiser rival in development

[Franco Cozzo]

BMW diesel engine.

European components used in rugged 4x4 vehicle, I look forward to spares availability issues.

Let's see how this plays out

Keen customers on remote trips will also be able to work on cars themselves, with Ineos promising open access to repair manuals, design schematics and parts catalogues to help adventurers find their way home.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/m...bf0ddb3d18?amp

[383hq]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

BMW diesel engine.

European components used in rugged 4x4 vehicle, I look forward to spares availability issues.

Let's see how this plays out


https://www.news.com.au/technology/m...bf0ddb3d18?amp

Does the B57 have history? I thought it was a decent diesel?

[XR Martin]

Turbo petrol with diff locks please.

[Franco Cozzo]

Seems like a missed opportunity to use something like Cummins on highway options here.

Originally Posted by 383hq

Does the B57 have history? I thought it was a decent diesel?

I'm very suspect on German passenger diesel engines - sure they put out nice power and torque but reliability, longevity and throw in our **** fuel means its a questionable proposition.

[oldel]

I think this is more made for european market - for those that want a better defender, or a low cost option to the merc g wagon.
I could admit that's just speculation because it looks that way - and it does look like them too!

Full credit to the new company too. So many wealthy europeans think they should start a new car company and make a supercar that no one buys. These people did it the right way by emulating well know 4x4s instead, should actually sell unlike the supercars

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Seems like a missed opportunity to use something like Cummins on highway options here.

Only yesterday I was joking with a Cummins mechanic about cummins swapping his brand new Dmax....

"a 4BT wont fit and the 2.8 is a ******* POS"

Originally Posted by oldel

I think this is more made for european market - for those that want a better defender

Best way to improve on the oldschool defender was to pull the tech rubbish out of them.

Originally Posted by oldel

Full credit to the new company too. So many wealthy europeans think they should start a new car company and make a supercar that no one buys. These people did it the right way by emulating well know 4x4s instead, should actually sell unlike the supercars

especially considering they're not as expensive as a nice house!

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

Less problematic and you dont get scars on your knuckles from them dragging on the ground? the LC70 series hasnt been a truly reliable bit of kit since they started the V8's

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Seems like a missed opportunity to use something like Cummins on highway options here.

Chinese Cummins. ??

[smoo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Chinese Cummins. ??

Wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Beijing Foton Engine Company (ISF) and Dong Feng Cummins Engine Company (B Series) are joint ventures with Cummins except they aren't suppose to be sold outside of China. Not suprisingly a few snakes have managed to import them and sell them brand new but 'used' to operators who want to save a buck.
Type the ESN into Cummins quickserve for parts breakdown or workshop manual and nothing makes sense, the Chinese have used old parts like timing gear covers on newer engines, made up their own part numbers, fitted different parts like turbos/housings, they are just a nightmare if chasing parts or carrying out work on one.
I see some bloke is importing brand new Chinese B series and selling them for around $10k for Land Cruiser/Patrol swaps. Brand new genuine Cummins B series is near $22k.

As for the Land Cruiser rival. Do you need to buy aftermarket cup holders and arms rests? Do you need to fit 20 year/300,000km old XR6 seats so it doesn't feel like grand dads Kingswood? Do you need to option electric windows so the manual winder doesn't dig into your right knee? Do you need to fit an exhaust/tune/injectors/turbo so it makes more power & torque than an AU1 Forte? Might be onto a winner if No to all of them.

[Franco Cozzo]

I reckon they should make a civilian version of the Thales Hawkei two door - it's a big *** ute

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/globa...defence/hawkei

Take away armour to put it on a diet, normal windows/windscreens.

Kinda like an IVECO Daily 4x4, without all the military stuff the price would drop significantly.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by smoo

Wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Beijing Foton Engine Company (ISF) and Dong Feng Cummins Engine Company (B Series) are joint ventures with Cummins except they aren't suppose to be sold outside of China. Not suprisingly a few snakes have managed to import them and sell them brand new but 'used' to operators who want to save a buck.
Type the ESN into Cummins quickserve for parts breakdown or workshop manual and nothing makes sense, the Chinese have used old parts like timing gear covers on newer engines, made up their own part numbers, fitted different parts like turbos/housings, they are just a nightmare if chasing parts or carrying out work on one.
.

I've got an ISF Cummins in a Foton Dual cab Ute.!
I've also got 3 other Cummins Engines in Trucks & a Cummins Quickserve account. Whilst I've only ever needed to Buy Filters for the ISF a quick trawl through quickserve doesn't show anything untoward (to Me at least) but Don't mind being corrected.


I should probably put something in the Great Wally Thread..
But I'm more than Happy with the Little ISF & the whole vehicle in General all things considered..

[smoo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

I've got an ISF Cummins in a Foton Dual cab Ute.!
I've also got 3 other Cummins Engines in Trucks & a Cummins Quickserve account. Whilst I've only ever needed to Buy Filters for the ISF a quick trawl through quickserve doesn't show anything untoward (to Me at least) but Don't mind being corrected.


I should probably put something in the Great Wally Thread..
But I'm more than Happy with the Little ISF & the whole vehicle in General all things considered..

The online support for ISF/QSF isn’t as comprehensive compared to something like a qsb/m/c etc.
I’ve had to do a couple of jobs on a isf3.8 in a JAC and qsf3.8 in a skid steer. For both engines the parts and workshop literature was very vague.
The JAC ESN brought up an EGR engine despite it being pre EGR yet original to the truck. Just an example of one of the f. arounds it is with some of these Chinese derived models.
From memory part of the deal with the likes of Foton is their authorised dealers or agents are to carry out the work (including warranty), not Cummins. This also goes for Ram, and I’m pretty sure these run OBD2, their own Chrysler/Dodge ECM so Insite won’t talk to them. I’ve never run a Ram ESN into quickserve to see what it brings up though.

Whilst the F series info is vague, it’s nothing on some of the Dong Feng B series that is intended to stay in China, which as I said seems to be a bitsa engine with different parts and part numbers. A lot have made it here as gensets, or marketed as marine engines or viable swaps into 4wds.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by smoo

Wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Beijing Foton Engine Company (ISF) and Dong Feng Cummins Engine Company (B Series) are joint ventures with Cummins except they aren't suppose to be sold outside of China. Not suprisingly a few snakes have managed to import them and sell them brand new but 'used' to operators who want to save a buck.
Type the ESN into Cummins quickserve for parts breakdown or workshop manual and nothing makes sense, the Chinese have used old parts like timing gear covers on newer engines, made up their own part numbers, fitted different parts like turbos/housings, they are just a nightmare if chasing parts or carrying out work on one.
I see some bloke is importing brand new Chinese B series and selling them for around $10k for Land Cruiser/Patrol swaps. Brand new genuine Cummins B series is near $22k.

As for the Land Cruiser rival. Do you need to buy aftermarket cup holders and arms rests? Do you need to fit 20 year/300,000km old XR6 seats so it doesn't feel like grand dads Kingswood? Do you need to option electric windows so the manual winder doesn't dig into your right knee? Do you need to fit an exhaust/tune/injectors/turbo so it makes more power & torque than an AU1 Forte? Might be onto a winner if No to all of them.

Main reason I couldn't bring myself to buy a JAC truck.
Older Isuzu cab, Dana axles, Isuzu gearbox, S cam brakes and Chinese Cummins.
Think I'll stick to rebuilding the trucks I have with the parts I've hoardered.

[Franco Cozzo]

I like its basic and rugged looks as well as the interior,

Though the central instrument cluster is a bit pizdets

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I like its basic and rugged looks as well as the interior,

Though the central instrument cluster is a bit pizdets

and yet sorry Franco i find it Fugly as Farq
in side and out
so to me it wouldnt matter what diesel went in to it

[MITCHAY]

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

Because they are awful and need $50k spent on them before they are half decent.

[Ben73]

I’ve been vaguely following the Ineos for the last year or so. I’m not keen to sign up to one but if they prove themselves after a few years it’s the type of vehicle I would like.
Assuming it feels like it was built in the 21st century. I like good off-roaders, but also modern features and driving characteristics.

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

Hopefully the Ineos won’t feel 45 years old as you drive it out of the showroom.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

I follow these Toyota 70, s frequently.
I saw one modded up with all the trick 4wd gear.
number plate was ENVIOUS

Then I noticed the rear axle is narrower than the front axle.

Envious-nah.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

I follow these Toyota 70, s frequently.
I saw one modded up with all the trick 4wd gear.
number plate was ENVIOUS

Then I noticed the rear axle is narrower than the front axle.

Envious-nah.

70 series wasn't designed for V engine, they had to widen the front track to fit that 4.5L boat anchor in.

Hence track differences between front and rear wheels.

Maybe they just should have used an LS

[XR Martin]

The overseas 70 series use a 4L V6 which has equal front and rear track. Wish we could get that version here.
We're the only ones to get that thong slapping diesel v8 anchor with mismatched track.

[eb2fairmont]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

70 series wasn't designed for V engine, they had to widen the front track to fit that 4.5L boat anchor in.

Hence track differences between front and rear wheels.

Maybe they just should have used an LS

VH commodore also has a wider front track.

[rare ss]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

current waiting time is 12-14 months for a new LC70 crew cab

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

It has the 3.0 B57 coupled to a ZF8.

apart from that making it better to drive, it would use HALF the diesel.

PS on price the 70 series base model is pretty bland option the GXL and the pricing is closer, but I imagine the Toyota would still be lacking in features..

given early production numbers I think its priced quite low

[383hq]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Why on earth would you pay more in comparison to a proven Toyota 70 series

1. Hopefully F-R wheel track is the same
2. You may actually be able to buy one. Currently 9-10+month wait according to my brother who wanted to trade his 18 month old jigger on a new 'un a couple of months ago
3. Hopefully don't need to spend $$$ on it to make it "tough" in the eyes of your rev head mates. So it may actually end up similar in cost?
4. spare parts availability *may* be no different with LC70, it has been an issue, with lead times on some parts measured in many weeks, some in months. (Experience from When I was in the mining industry, Granted this was many years ago now, and may have changed)
5. Can't (couldn't?) buy an auto version of the LC70. Manual only, so for beach use....
6. If it gets wet and the starter motor needs to be swapped out, hopefully its only a few hours on the bill being a Straight six, not a 10 hr labour bill.

Hopefully it is more reliable then the the euro built Land Rovers of past...

But it could well be G-Wagen expensive to fix? But Magna Steyr have quite the rep. It will likely come down to how well they manage changes post testing, and how well everything is assembled (i.e. Germany or France? Monday or Friday?)
With a 4mm box ladder chassis it may not go so well in modern crash testing, but should be durable enough...

[Wretched]

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Surely that's very close to infringing on intellectual property for Land Rover.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Surely that's very close to infringing on intellectual property for Land Rover.

Close, But No Cigar.. Apparently..

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...b024bc1f88096a

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Close, But No Cigar.. Apparently..

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...b024bc1f88096a

I love how when a manufacturer turns their back on one of their own creations and someone else decides to capitalise, they try the law suit.

HEY! YOU'RE COPYING OUR DESIGN THAT WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE ANYMORE!

Might have just been easier to keep making the Defender as per it's original intention, then there'd be no Ineos Grenadier.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Close, But No Cigar.. Apparently..

Did they sue Merc for their G wagon too?

[CyberWasp]

There needs to be some competition in this part of the market.
Toyota have a chuckle every day counting the profits they make here.
They do the absolute minimum as highlighted above.