What makes an ‘icon’ model special?

jphanna · 16-01-2009, 02:47 PM

Hi people,

If you look at the Australian icon/classic greatest model in our motoring history, there is one thing that has been the yardstick for all of them. I am talking the big ‘3’ Bathurst specials that started back in the sixties (GT, PACER, GTS, RT, XU1, etc), and continued with the Brock HDT cars and finally HSV with the 1992 Group A).
Take a look at the obscene prices that these cars are fetching today, which all have a ‘Factory’ Bathurst connection. What car since the 1993 V8 supercar formula was introduced, has a showroom connection, apart from the badge and the body shape?

The question I got for you is, if a HO 1, 2 or 3 asking price is over $500,000, or a GTS Bathurst 327/350 asking price is $300,000, E49 and XU1 over $100,000 (maybe more?), can you see any HSV since the Group A, or any FPV command the obscene amounts of the true Bathurst specials in the future?

Fev · 16-01-2009, 03:01 PM

i really cant see any HSV's reaching absurd prices in the future, or if they do it would have to be the VT specials ie SV99, SV300, GTS 300 along with the W427, GTS-R as they are fairly rare cars and were pretty big when they came out..

anything else thats come out is just ordinary, the only FPV's that may reach high prices could be maybe the BFII GT's with the 302kw engine, the Cobra's and R-specced cars other then very early builds and prototypes

GT0132 · 16-01-2009, 03:04 PM

If I was given $1 for every post on this topic in recent times I'd be able to buy a Phase 3.

I think we're all over it ...the economic theories of of supply and demand will dictate future values and I think we have all previously agreed that when/if todays FPV's/HSV's fall into the collectors category we'll all be too old to care.

A 30 year timespan usually sees values start to rise again , provided of course the car is in good nick and, more importantly, is rare.

**Polyal** · 16-01-2009, 03:09 PM

I cant see any FPV's really being worth much later on, not like the older classics.

I think F6's will do ok when the I6T is eventually ditched, hopefuly Ford does a nice "last model" effort for the F6 when the time comes. Just make a factory weapon, WGAF about what the V8 equivalent is making at the time.

But from Holdens P.O.V the GTS-R is special, same with the VN Group A. Id never want to own one but they are icons in a sense.

From Ford, well maybe the ED Sprint, EB GT, EL GT.....thats about it.

GT0132 · 16-01-2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

I cant see any FPV's really being worth much later on, not like the older classics.

Well nobody thought the older classics would be worth anywhere near what they are today, so thats a huge call

**Polyal** · 16-01-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT0132

Well nobody thought the older classics would be worth anywhere near what they are today, so thats a huge call

Yeah I know, Im sure no one even in the 80's thought a P3 would pull the money is does now (did).

I didn't mean to offend, but they just dont have the halo of the older ones, there is no mystic about them. Great cars, ill take any FPV in the range, but nothing like the older ones which has more to do about history, rules and regs etc.

GT0132 · 16-01-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Yeah I know, Im sure no one even in the 80's thought a P3 would pull the money is does now (did).

I didn't mean to offend, but they just dont have the halo of the older ones, there is no mystic about them. Great cars, ill take any FPV in the range, but nothing like the older ones which has more to do about history, rules and regs etc.

No offence taken champ...All good

:

platinumXR · 16-01-2009, 03:58 PM

I was at a mates place to day and he was talking to a friend of his on the phone who was looking at an XA GT 2 door. Unrestored, unknown condition, I cannot remember whether he said Diamond or Polar White, and I am guessing it had all the usual gear on it etc. etc.

I overheard that the owner was asking $65,000...I nearly choked on my coffee...

I asked "Is it an RPO or the first one ever made or something?" No was the reply and I said "WAY WAY too much money" The buyer is apparently loaded and really wants the configuration...but REALLY...this is stupid...this guy is perpetuating a false economic idolization of these cars.

I don't really mean to offend anyone either BUT just because some stupid wombat is willing to pay a stupid amount of money for what is really an average or ordinary marque...doesn't mean that's what sellers should be able to ask for them. I know we all have mortgages but does that REALLY excuse you for ripping some poor gobbler who thinks it will be an investment in 25 more years?

I have been a Ford V8/GT whatever fanatic all my life...but REALLY...

I guess a fool and his money are soon parted.

Just my $0.02 worth.

xb351coupe · 16-01-2009, 04:21 PM

65k for an unrestored XA GT 2 Door provided its in better then average condition is not to bad a price to pay imo. Sure if its needs a full resto then that's another story.

I've got a couple of new FPV's and my old GT, and I have this price debate with nearly every tom, dick and harry every other week. Sure the $$$ are in the back of your mind but I enjoy the cars for what they are not what they are worth or could/should/might be worth one day.

**Falcon Coupe** · 16-01-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinumXR

I was at a mates place to day and he was talking to a friend of his on the phone who was looking at an XA GT 2 door. Unrestored, unknown condition, I cannot remember whether he said Diamond or Polar White, and I am guessing it had all the usual gear on it etc. etc.

I overheard that the owner was asking $65,000...I nearly choked on my coffee...

I asked "Is it an RPO or the first one ever made or something?" No was the reply and I said "WAY WAY too much money" The buyer is apparently loaded and really wants the configuration...but REALLY...this is stupid...this guy is perpetuating a false economic idolization of these cars.

I don't really mean to offend anyone either BUT just because some stupid wombat is willing to pay a stupid amount of money for what is really an average or ordinary marque...doesn't mean that's what sellers should be able to ask for them. I know we all have mortgages but does that REALLY excuse you for ripping some poor gobbler who thinks it will be an investment in 25 more years?

I have been a Ford V8/GT whatever fanatic all my life...but REALLY...

I guess a fool and his money are soon parted.

Just my $0.02 worth.

It's simply supply and demand, it's not like the buyer in question can go to the next car yard for a better deal.

Right or wrong this is how it works.

ford_maiden · 16-01-2009, 03:40 PM

i think its just to hard to tell, i mean look around today and you will see all the young people buying VL calais of upwards of $7000, and if its a turbo ur looking at an easy $ 10 000, anyone who pays it is insane but i have seen it happen. and to buy an AU fairmont V8 is still like $12 000, i use to have a HSV VQ statesman build 49 of 89 and i only paid like $6500 for that. i think it swings the way of how big of a demand there is for a particular car.

Fev · 16-01-2009, 03:20 PM

not too sure about the F6's in 30 years.. they'll probably all be thrashed(then again all the GT's probably were too lol) and there's just so many of them. The turbo barra is a ground breaking motor but there hasn't been a special model made - even the Boss's got the Cobra.

GT0132 · 16-01-2009, 03:42 PM

Another factor in recent times which has contributed to the spiralling values of the late 60's and 70's classics is the cashed up retiring baby boomer population wanting to relive their childhood by buying these vehicles which they may have owned when they were young. Rumour has it that this phenomenen has now run its course so consequently the over inflated values will soon adjust to more realistic levels. If the economic crises continues, or worsens, then that decline will happen quite rapidly.

Should the same thing happen withGen Y's in 25-30 years time, then you can expect Subaru WRX's to be in huge demand in the year 2030...not your typical Australian family sedan built in 2005...Teenagers today don't rate Aussie 6/8 cylinder cars and consign them to the "uncool" basket so who will be buying them in 30 years time? Certainly not todays youth thats for sure, and they're gonna have all their inherited wealth in their back pocket at their disposal.....So, buy 10 WRX's now and store them for 30 years as part of your super fund Fev

Fev · 16-01-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT0132

Should the same thing happen withGen Y's in 25-30 years time, then you can expect Subaru WRX's to be in huge demand in the year 2030...not your typical Australian family sedan built in 2005...Teenagers today don't rate Aussie 6/8 cylinder cars and consign them to the "uncool" basket so who will be buying them in 30 years time? Certainly not todays youth thats for sure, and they're gonna have all their inherited wealth in their back pocket at their disposal.....So, buy 10 WRX's now and store them for 30 years as part of your super fund Fev

maybe i should try my hand with VRX magnas too? :P

FPV8U · 16-01-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT0132

Another factor in recent times which has contributed to the spiralling values of the late 60's and 70's classics is the cashed up retiring baby boomer population wanting to relive their childhood by buying these vehicles which they may have owned when they were young. Rumour has it that this phenomenen has now run its course so consequently the over inflated values will soon adjust to more realistic levels. If the economic crises continues, or worsens, then that decline will happen quite rapidly.

Should the same thing happen withGen Y's in 25-30 years time, then you can expect Subaru WRX's to be in huge demand in the year 2030...not your typical Australian family sedan built in 2005...Teenagers today don't rate Aussie 6/8 cylinder cars and consign them to the "uncool" basket so who will be buying them in 30 years time? Certainly not todays youth thats for sure, and they're gonna have all their inherited wealth in their back pocket at their disposal.....So, buy 10 WRX's now and store them for 30 years as part of your super fund Fev

While in some parts your right, there are more V8's and high performance cars in my close circle of friends then people we know my parents age, Aussie muscle still has it's fan boys and always will.

jphanna · 16-01-2009, 03:34 PM

what i find amusing, is during the 80's any charger (E49 excepted), V8 falcons GT excepted), monaro or torana (A9X excepted),was in the 'under 3000.00' section of the motoring adds. try getting one thats not even a bathurst special now.

i would like a current GT for 6 days of the week, and one of the old classics (any of the big 3), for sundays only...

Grippy · 16-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Todays road car offerings from Ford and Holden share nothing with the V8 Supercars thats the problem. Monaro's, GT Falcons, XU1's and E38/39 Chargers were all built in limited numbers to win Bathurst. I personally cant see any offerings from HSV or FPV being worth hideous amounts of money in 30 years because there are so many of them and they share nothing with today's racing cars

LOCO XP · 16-01-2009, 04:20 PM

Its ridiculous that the classic icons that were once accessible to the true enthusiasts are now so far out of touch with reality in terms of prices. Don't know whether it will happen with most of the later model Aussie cars. I can't see the Aussie performance cars holding/gaining value like the very few late model and extremely desirable and limited production-run exotic cars such as Ferrari Enzos etc. Hard to predict what will happen to the current FPV/HSV lot in 30 or so years, but it seems the desirability of the so-called muscle cars has declined from say the XR-XY GT's and HK-T-G Monaros. Don't know whether it makes sense what I'm saying. As much as I love our ballsy GTs, Chargers and Monaros, and envy those that are priveleged enough to possess these, it's ridiculous that these cars command similar prices to classics such as 300SL Merc Gullwings, AC Cobras and Aston Martins.

IMO anybody looking to make a buck by paying a premium on a brand new 'exclusive' local car is mad. Just buy them to enjoy them, drive them to appreciate their assets in performance and handling. Why spend mega bucks on something that loses $$thousand$$ every year regardless of whether its only got a few km and is spotless. Cars are meant to be driven. There's only a few cars that are considered investment material. And as it stands there's not a lot post '70's that fits the bill

**Polyal** · 16-01-2009, 03:52 PM

Ah bugger did forget one modern Ford that eventually will appreciate IMO. T3.

Why? Unique engine, limited numbers (reason why its limited doesn't really matter) and unique styling with a brand that has a strong name (Tickford).

Now lets watch the thread die..LOL

nugget378 · 16-01-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ah bugger did forget one modern Ford that eventually will appreciate IMO. T3.

They arent doing too well lately,

Lets not forget that for the most part these old bathurst models have never really dropped in value from the the time they were new, while they may not have climbed as quickly in the past as of late, they were still worth more than their original sale price from virtually the day they were driven off the lot..

**Polyal** · 16-01-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

They arent doing too well lately,

Lets not forget that for the most part these old bathurst models have never really dropped in value from the the time they were new, while they may not have climbed as quickly in the past as of late, they were still worth more than their original sale price from virtually the day they were driven off the lot..

I dont think T3's will go under $20k, so they are close to their limit (maybe autos).

It would be really interesting to see a spreadsheet of say a P3 and its value over time.

4Vman · 16-01-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont think T3's will go under $20k, so they are close to their limit (maybe autos).

It would be really interesting to see a spreadsheet of say a P3 and its value over time.

They already have, there's been a few around 16k recently.

Dezza · 16-01-2009, 05:32 PM

HSV Coupe 4 is another one to watch. They were heavier and slower than most HSVs, but with AWD and low numbers built, they can be worth a bit in the future.

Of course this doesn't always apply. Look at the Ford Landau. They had limited numbers built, but are quite often actually worth LESS than the equivalent Falcon coupe.

FPV+fteT3 · 16-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Quite a few posts say that fpv's will be worth nothing cause there is so many of them made? do the people who say this actually know that xygt's were made in similar numbers to bf's and nearly 40 years on not too many genuine xy's survive thats why they comand the cash so I put it to you that in 30 years time of the lets say 3000 bf gt's that were made how many will be left and what price will one be prepared to pay to own the ford performance car of the 2007's era? I think that no one has a crystal ball but I would bet that todays hiperf. cars will be worth some serious coin in good nick in the next 20 or so years.

Bossxr8 · 17-01-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpv84d

Quite a few posts say that fpv's will be worth nothing cause there is so many of them made? do the people who say this actually know that xygt's were made in similar numbers to bf's and nearly 40 years on not too many genuine xy's survive thats why they comand the cash so I put it to you that in 30 years time of the lets say 3000 bf gt's that were made how many will be left and what price will one be prepared to pay to own the ford performance car of the 2007's era? I think that no one has a crystal ball but I would bet that todays hiperf. cars will be worth some serious coin in good nick in the next 20 or so years.

But there were only a few hundred HO's made, the XY GTHO was approx 250, and considering how many are still left, maybe 100, then you realize how rare they are. The value on the standard XY GT's has been driven up because of the halo of the GTHO, and people wanting to buy one but they can't afford one so they settle for a GT which looks the same anyway. The current range may sell in similar numbers but there is no special edition halo model performance leader at the top that wins at Bathurst and creates a halo for the whole range.

The whole market for these old muscle cars has crashed pretty hard recently, just look at the number of passed in examples at the auctions, no one is going to pay the ridiculous prices the sellers want any more. Its definately peaked, at least for a while yet. I'll bet the guy who payed the highest amount for the Ph3 is kicking himself, its probably worth a lot less than what he paid for it now.

Transfiguring R · 16-01-2009, 08:41 PM

Man, I've seen a whole lot of Typhoons and GTs smashed up on pickles auctions website... if the crash rate continues then there won't be that many left in 30 years.

Also, the F6/Typhoon is a new car, which has earned a hell of a rep for itself in a very short time. And the b series is also a great looking car. Next to an FG, it looks aged, and is starting to gain a classic look all its own, imo...

But as many have said, only time will tell.

4Vman · 16-01-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

Hi people,

If you look at the Australian icon/classic greatest model in our motoring history, there is one thing that has been the yardstick for all of them. I am talking the big ‘3’ Bathurst specials that started back in the sixties (GT, PACER, GTS, RT, XU1, etc), and continued with the Brock HDT cars and finally HSV with the 1992 Group A).
Take a look at the obscene prices that these cars are fetching today, which all have a ‘Factory’ Bathurst connection. What car since the 1993 V8 supercar formula was introduced, has a showroom connection, apart from the badge and the body shape?

The question I got for you is, if a HO 1, 2 or 3 asking price is over $500,000, or a GTS Bathurst 327/350 asking price is $300,000, E49 and XU1 over $100,000 (maybe more?), can you see any HSV since the Group A, or any FPV command the obscene amounts of the true Bathurst specials in the future?

Simple.. NEVER.
They all miss that magical ingredient the others have.

Whitey-AMG · 16-01-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Simple.. NEVER.
They all miss that magical ingredient the others have.

Never say NEVER...........LOL

Whilst the B and F series will not command the premiums that the X series GT's have recently enjoyed..........it is eminently obvious that GM and FORD will be chasing more fuel efficient engine technologies for their big displacement engines. The recent DOD output figures for the SS show a reduction in HP and Torque, so its only a matter of time before FORD follows suit or packs the V8 program in altogether......collectors, enthusiasts and opportunists will scramble to get em as is the case with all such end of the line type consumables......I have a feeling that on the day of that announcement, there may very well be some smug B and F series V8 owners out there having a bit of a chuckle !!!!!!!

4Vman · 16-01-2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESP

Never say NEVER...........LOL

Whilst the B and F series will not command the premiums that the X series GT's have recently enjoyed..........it is eminently obvious that GM and FORD will be chasing more fuel efficient engine technologies for their big displacement engines. The recent DOD output figures for the SS show a reduction in HP and Torque, so its only a matter of time before FORD follows suit or packs the V8 program in altogether......collectors, enthusiasts and opportunists will scramble to get em as is the case with all such end of the line type consumables......I have a feeling that on the day of that announcement, there may very well be some smug B and F series V8 owners out there having a bit of a chuckle !!!!!!!

LOL, yeah, true.
But if you look at historic "indicators" the X series GT's and HO's recovered to original sales price within 3-5 years.. some even maintained their original sales price..!
10 years down the track average XW GT's were twice their purchase price, HO3's 6+ times, they've gradually climbed since the 80's.
To put that in relative perspective can anyone see a BA/F GT or T3 being worth their original price of 65k+ let alone 150K in 3-5 years time????.

Whitey-AMG · 16-01-2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

LOL, yeah, true.
But if you look at historic "indicators" the X series GT's and HO's recovered to original sales price within 3-5 years.. some even maintained their original sales price..!
10 years down the track average XW GT's were twice their purchase price, HO3's 6+ times, they've gradually climbed since the 80's.
To put that in relative perspective can anyone see a BA/F GT or T3 being worth their original price of 65k+ let alone 150K in 3-5 years time????.

Definitely not............in fact, I think there will more than likely still be demo B series FPV's in dealer lots in 3 years time .........

The value of these cars will more than likely be commensurate with a disastrous announcement by FORD / FPV that the V8 will cease production etc etc........ Based on current economic and environmental pressures and a quantum shift in the general publics buying preferences.....that day may not be that far off............I can see the F6 leapfrogging the GT in sales real soon.........for the 1st time since the release of the B series FPV's.......I've seen more FG F6's on the road than FG GT's as an initial model release...........